Remember all the Frames we could've had

[Squid Boss]

Not really as long as pieces are balanced themselves they'd be balanced in combination, a sniper with heavy armor for example would be slow and unable to reposition once located which is a problem for a as a sniper rifle is useless in cqc

True, so long as the game mechanics work in such a way. I'm all for leaving anything on the table so long as, keeping that example, playing a Sniper but with the most heavy of armor also severely impacts mobility and overall output because the Heavy armor and the Sniper rifle and abilities do not sync well enough to beat a much more optimal lighter weight armored and stat balanced frame. You can do what you want! - just may not work as well as it could.

 

[Wintersiege]

Reading though this I am having Front Mission 3 flashbacks of tweaking out my units with various parts which was one of the best parts of that game.

 

[phoenix]

Or....it could be one omniframe, but you could buy different looks for it in the future. Hmmm, what to do?

My whish........

Just one frame with one huge teck-tree. Each branch/ability costs xp to unlock and once unlocked allows you to unlock further more advanced/niche abilities. After unlocking a branch you can buy leaves for that abilities that enhance it. For example: extra mod-slots, supplementary passive effects upon use,... There are 4 (or more) trees: Offense, defense, support, utility,...

After unlocking an ability you can lvl up the ability simply by using it. These lvls are called proficiency Levels (PL). PLs unlock mostly cosmetic changes and add small boost in stats up to a certain point. You can unlock every ability but you'll only be good at them if you actually use them. These PLs aren't unlocked by xp but by completing multiple tasks. example. Deal 10kk Dmg in total. kill 10k enemies with that ability. get 500 multi kills with that ability. fly 10km upwards with that abilities.

Why?
because releasing a new ability each patch is way easier then developing a whole frame.

Balance?
Each frame has 100 points for each discipline (Offense, defense, support, utility)
Each ability costs point in one or multiple disciplines. Example: Teleport would eat up points in both Offense, defense and utility).
Ability points cost can be reduced by unlocking leafs in the ability-unlock-tree or by proficiency Levels.
If you make the frame modular in terms of generator, armor, etc. then you can increase the available points by adding a heavier engine at the cost of movement speed.
Not all engine are the same. Some engines give more offensive points at the cost of others as an example.

Have some points in excesses?
Give each ability a multiplier that multiplies the ability stats and point cost. If you want to you can use up all your points on one ability with a big multiplier.

monetization?
Sell alternative ability effects/color pallets. Example: replace boring blue lightning from a shockwave ability with purple lightning with black outlines for only 1.49$.

 

[Sn0wfIak3]

To me, a lot of the classes simply represented personality types.

• The Assault. Being more hyper active. ADHD, ADD, HSP.

• The Dread, being about the ability to deal with stuff.

• The Engineer. The Bastion being more of a person who likes to plan stuff out in advance. The Electron being a bit of a control freak.

• The Biotech, being either someone who wants to be supportive or the total opposite, just generally being a bit of an A*hole.

• The Recon, being a bit sneaky. Looking at stuff from the shadows. Keeping their distance.

This is something that did get lost in the later iterations of FF, imo. The frames lost their personality. The idea for an omni-frame does sound cool but i feel it's something worth mentioning. Especially given that the whole "moba shooter" thing is getting popular.

 

[Squid Boss]

To me, a lot of the classes simply represented personality types.

• The Assault. Being more hyper active. ADHD, ADD, HSP.

• The Dread, being about the ability to deal with stuff.

• The Engineer. The Bastion being more of a person who likes to plan stuff out in advance. The Electron being a bit of a control freak.

• The Biotech, being either someone who wants to be supportive or the total opposite, just generally being a bit of an A*hole.

• The Recon, being a bit sneaky. Looking at stuff from the shadows. Keeping their distance.

This is something that did get lost in the later iterations of FF, imo. The frames lost their personality. The idea for an omni-frame does sound cool but i feel it's something worth mentioning. Especially given that the whole "moba shooter" thing is getting popular.

Having an open ended situation with roles defining the frame rather than a name or playstyle may allow us to add the personality we so desire as an individual. If the game is built around an open world we influence then I would imagine leaving a single frame with the Holy Trinity in the back seat driving us gives us the opportunity to also influence the frame in such ways we create our own class based on a plethora of choices up a path that has the trademarks of all the frames we knew and loved in Firefall.

 

[phoenix]

In 2016 I think that classes are obsolete. Whenever you see a class you already know kinda what skill he has, his gameplay and you know what counters it. you are just lumped into a category.

in Firefall:
Assaults are expected to be everywhere at a distance. Dreadnoughts are supposed to be in the front-lines. Engineers are supposed to guard something. biotech are supposed to support other players and stay away from harm. Recons are supposed to be sneaky and assist players from afar. if you refrain from any of the above then you aren't efficient.

This is getting kind of dull. Same crap everywhere. You are [insert class] so you are supposed to do [inset class action] and refrain from doing [inset class inappropriate actions]

If there are no classes then you aren't obligated to do anything by other players or the meta. No one knows what skills/abilities you have and what your play-style is so everyone will leave you alone. Without classes you are judged by what you can do as an individual and not as how good of a [insert class] you are.

In pvp you know what attacks and skills someone has by looking at the class and what good counters there are. If there are no classes in PVP then you'll never know what you can expect from each player on both teams. for example if you see a firecat in PVP then you'd better GTFO of his range or you're done for.

If you encounter an enemy in PVP without classes then:
"What is he up to???"
"should I get closer or further away???"
"Is he running away or luring me into a trap???"
"what ability/combo is he going to unleash on me and how do I doge it????"
"Will he be able to doge my attacks or use a defensive ability??

 

[DemonSlayer873]

....

No classes or restrictions means forming of metas like a frame with heavy armor, afterburner, decoy and a self healing ability which will make the game boring rather fast

 

[Squid Boss]

No classes or restrictions means forming of metas like a frame with heavy armor, afterburner, decoy and a self healing ability which will make the game boring rather fast

When I think "No Classes" I don't think "Pure freedom" but instead think the limitation would be by archtype.

Tank tree wouldn't be loaded with stealth and afterburner. Dps tree wouldn't have tons of healing and the most durable armors and so on.

There would have to be limits and a specific section but you wouldn't join the game as a Mammoth. More than likely you join as an Omniframe and outfit yourself in the Dreadnaught Division and get access to that divisions specialty; front lines tank.

 

[Sn0wfIak3]

^^

It's not just boring. It's just too much. It's the same as "what would you do if you would win the lottery?"

It sounds like a simple answer, until you actually get there.

Come on, let's be honest. Didn't each and every one of you have a favorite class in FF? And why?

 

[DemonSlayer873]

When I think "No Classes" I don't think "Pure freedom" but instead think the limitation would be by archtype.

Tank tree wouldn't be loaded with stealth and afterburner. Dps tree wouldn't have tons of healing and the most durable armors and so on.

There would have to be limits and a specific section but you wouldn't join the game as a Mammoth. More than likely you join as an Omniframe and outfit yourself in the Dreadnaught Division and get access to that divisions specialty; front lines tank.

Its still some sort of class system

 

[Squid Boss]

Its still some sort of class system

Correct.

You can't exactly remove a class system and not have everyone be exactly the same CoD style.

What you can do is still allow a Tank to build for DPS but never quite beat a pure DPS role.

It isn't really removing classes but more removing the notion that it must be A = <Role> 100% of the time.

Global Agenda allowed the Dread to be a dps if built that way. Just as a medic could be built to dps. Neither one was ever better or specifically worse than the others so it really blurred the class roles and simply allowed roles.

 

[DemonSlayer873]

Correct.

You can't exactly remove a class system and not have everyone be exactly the same CoD style.

What you can do is still allow a Tank to build for DPS but never quite beat a pure DPS role.

It isn't really removing classes but more removing the notion that it must be A = <Role> 100% of the time.

Global Agenda allowed the Dread to be a dps if built that way. Just as a medic could be built to dps. Neither one was ever better or specifically worse than the others so it really blurred the class roles and simply allowed roles.

Well unleas i read what phoenix said wrong he is asking for no classes at all

 

[Squid Boss]

Well unleas i read what phoenix said wrong he is asking for no classes at all

May not be impossible to do such a thing.

Just have to be incredibly careful in ability and weapon design.

Most cases you would simply end up picking #1 #2 #3 ability/weapon regardless. I wouldn't agree with an anything goes system if following even remotely in Firefalls steps lol

 

[DemonSlayer873]

May not be impossible to do such a thing.

Just have to be incredibly careful in ability and weapon design.

Most cases you would simply end up picking #1 #2 #3 ability/weapon regardless. I wouldn't agree with an anything goes system if following even remotely in Firefalls steps lol

It wont be hard to do at all but in all cases there we will be meta build for everything

 

[phoenix]

No classes or restrictions means forming of metas like a frame with heavy armor, afterburner, decoy and a self healing ability which will make the game boring rather fast

Thank god that this time we have competent designers that know how to balance their game for Ember, Am I right?

This is Ember we are talking about not FF. Ember doesn't have "Heavy armor", "Afterburner" or "decoy". If they do make a copy then it'll be balanced. Heavy weighed armor slowing down afterburner, decoy Cooldown and duration scaling with weight and a non-scaling-with-Max-HP heal would be a nobrainer.

 

[Sn0wfIak3]

Idk. I could be wrong but i still feel it's a wrong path to take. Players will always want more. "My afterburner doesn't go fast enough" "my shield isn't working as well as that of player X". It's a perfect analogy for the slippery slope. We've seen it in FF and it's the reason Rhinos are flying around right now, while Firecats are waisting their boots.

Give them what they want and they'll hate you for it.

It's not about who is better than someone else, it's about who is more specialized at something. And if everyone is special, no one is.

It just keeps feeling wrong to me.

 

[Sn0wfIak3]

To extend upon my idea. I believe we all had at least one class we associate ourselves with the most.

This didn't mean we didn't want to switch them or had a top 3-4.

They all had their duality but in general, i'm pretty sure we all had our favorite archetype/class. Imo, this had a lot to do with the type of person you are. We like to identify ourselves with the characters we play. But there are different traits. Goku, a perfect example of the hero, Vegeta one of the anti-hero. As a simple example.

Like the Firecats and the Tigerclaws. How many times, didn't we entertain ourselves just by getting at each others necks about the differences?

I am all in favor of customization. But i believe keeping classes is crucial. Too many options isn't a good thing imo. You want to be able to recognize yourself, almost immediately.

 

[phoenix]

Global Agenda allowed the Dread to be a dps if built that way. Just as a medic could be built to dps. Neither one was ever better or specifically worse than the others so it really blurred the class roles and simply allowed roles.

Then what was the point of even splitting it up in classes? Isn't that a pseudo-example of classes not mattering.

Well unleas i read what phoenix said wrong he is asking for no classes at all

Correct

I believe we all had at least one class we associate ourselves with the most.

Nothing stops you from recreating an assault frame in Ember with the given pool of abilities.

--------------------------
I believe that the discomfort of no classes comes from Firefall. You are all probably imagining FF with no restrictions. Of course it's going to be a mess. FF balancing is a mess and certain abilities are broken. A dread with a healing generator afterburner and explosive rounds is beyond broken but that's not a surprise now is it?

This is Ember a complete new start. It's not like we'll have 40 abilities at the beginning of the game. No, we'll probably start out with 3 basic abilities. The next update we have a new one and another one, etc. Who even says we will have copies of the old FF abilities? If you look at all the FF abilities next to each other out of context then you'll notice that Afterburner, explosive rounds, healing generators and decoy stick out way too much in terms of power and utility while all the other abilities not listed pale in comparison.

If you remove classes from FF then yes it'll sink faster then a titanic on steroids but if you actually build a game with no classes in mind from the ground up then it might work out, who knows.

Also look closely to my balancing solution.

Each frame has 100 points for each discipline (Offense, defense, support, utility)
Each ability costs point in one or multiple disciplines. Example: Teleport would eat up points in both Offense, defense and utility).
...
you can increase the available points by adding a heavier engine at the cost of movement speed.
Not all engine are the same. Some engines give more offensive points at the cost of others as an example.

You have 4 caps (100 points for each discipline)in place to limit your power, just like we had mass, power and CPU limits back in FF beta. Depending on what type of engine you use you get other distribution of points.

Some engine examples:
Behemoth engine: 70 Off, 130Def, 130 Supp, 70Util.
valkyrie engine: 150 Off, 50 Def, 80 Supp, 120Util.

Some ability examples:
heavy sentry: cost of 80 Util, 50Def, 30 Supp
Carpet Bombing: cost of 80 Off, 10 Util.

Notice how you won't be able to use Heavy sentry with the Behemoth engine. In order to create extreme broken builds you require special engine that prevent you from using other abilities making them unbroken

Want classes in a class-less game???? Juts hide the classes behind numbers XD MUhahahah.

 

[Sn0wfIak3]

Tttuf

Why do you want an afterburner on your Tank?

Are you sure it's not wanting too much?

If not, than what is asking for too much....

 

[phoenix]

Why do you want an afterburner on your Tank?

Of course it's going to be a mess. FF balancing is a mess and certain abilities are broken.

It's just an example how broken no-class would be in FF. But because Ember is not Firefall No-class might work if we start from scratch. Ember is a successor to Firefall but that doesn't mean that it is a copy of Firefall. Afterburner might not even make it in Ember.