Remember all the Frames we could've had

[Squid Boss]

Then what was the point of even splitting it up in classes? Isn't that a pseudo-example of classes not mattering.

In a sense... in a large MMO world alrrady once designed around being a sandbox with multiple classes and archtypes within, you can't really have a classless game. Everyone would be the same and end result would be more like a survival multiplayer game and not the FF we know.

Global Agenda offered each of its class choices a weapon variant and abilities all their own making them all unique.

They made it so only a Medic could heal so it was its own class. Only an Assauly could beef up enough to tank. Only Robotics could build turrets and shields and robots. Etc.

With just an Omniframe and no classes but instead Technology Trees following the Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS, Heal) you could essentially allow all options to be available and limit them based on a set pool of resource... be it xp unlocks, research, loot drops, etc. You can't learn everything at once but you can have access to it when you want it.

I am with you on making everything avilable. Just need a way to limit things from bleeding over too much when combining. You want that stuff to be exciting and cool but we have all seen when two things collide unforseen effects can ruin gameplay.

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

Omniframe implies that it's universal all purpose frame. I'd like to see it modular. Basically same base frame and only small self-contained addons would change its appearance.

i was just amusing that what's Kern was talking about when he talked about the omniframe idea.

 

[TankHunter678]

A classless system means that a constraint system will also need to be in place.

If someone builds a tank with afterburner, decoy, heavy armor, and a self heal, and wants to do high damage output they must make a lot of sacrifices to do so.

Their afterburner wont take them very far, the decoy will be very short duration, Heavy Armor wont be much of a defense boost, that self heal wont heal for much or will have a very long cooldown. Alternatively they just give up on the high damage output to make those abilities more useful.

When people complain you just point out the simple fact: The constraint system wont let you have everything. This is not like those other MMOs where you equip the highest rarity gear to be the most powerful and just level up your skills. You have to think about your setup.

The more "powerful" the ability would be the more power it should take up, placing a greater need on trying to balance your build. This lets you implement a classless system.

This is also something that allows a level of customization only seen in diablo-esque MMOs like Path of Exile, which also has constraints in the form of skill points and attribute requirements which determine how much leeway one has in a particular build on both equipment and skills/spells.

We do not need the holy trinity. What we need is a sensible set of constraint limits. Power cores should determine how much power can be allocated, the materials the omniframe parts are made out of should influence things like weight limits, durability limits, and maybe how much power can go to a given part.

Sure its more complex then just designing a class, but it is a level of freedom rarely found in MMOs.

 

[NitroMidgets]

Like a gaming version of Barney's Crazy to Hot ratio chart? Firefall started off in the correct zone and ended up at the heart of the red zone.

 

[Smile]

A classless system means that a constraint system will also need to be in place.

This is what was originally going to be implemented if I recall correctly, and is the system that I would love to play.

 

[Luisedgm]

Oh yes...I remember that. While we can only afford to model one frame for a future funding goal, I'd like to be able to do more in the future.

Or....it could be one omniframe, but you could buy different looks for it in the future. Hmmm, what to do?

I think a generic frame will be fine by now, let us choose colors for now and it will be enough until you guys can get more assets
What really matters is how customizable the frame abilities are

 

[Luisedgm]

This is what was originally going to be implemented if I recall correctly, and is the system that I would love to play.

I remember when they promised that, energy vs CPU vs weight, that system would be fun to mess with, specially if the frames were more modular

 

[Luisedgm]

No doubt a balance concern. You wouldn't want say.. Uber high damage Snipers wearing the heaviest Armor.

No doubt you'd need a class system in regards to parts... So, Heavy Class armor would restrict in a specific way by sucking so much power that weapon systems suffered but durability was high, giving you a Tank style frame; perhaps that'd apply this way and that and back and forth to give the appearance of classes by weight/firepower/mobility but not being labeled with a name under a menu.

you dont need a class system at all
classes are only required for pvp based games

also a sniper with heavy frame would be silly, why would you need armor if you are far away from danger? you need mobility!

 

[Luisedgm]

No classes or restrictions means forming of metas like a frame with heavy armor, afterburner, decoy and a self healing ability which will make the game boring rather fast

metas will happen with or without classes
if a component/module becomes too poweful nerfing a single piece of gear will affect less people than nerfing a whole class

 

[Squid Boss]

you dont need a class system at all
classes are only required for pvp based games

also a sniper with heavy frame would be silly, why would you need armor if you are far away from danger? you need mobility!

That's why I said you wouldn't want it.

 

[Smile]

I remember when they promised that, energy vs CPU vs weight, that system would be fun to mess with, specially if the frames were more modular

Yeah something similar to that I wouldn't mind it. However I am sure what ever Mark decides will be fine.

On a side note I suggest using the edit button to add extra responses to the same post so you don't end up quad-posting

 

[Luisedgm]

Yeah something similar to that I wouldn't mind it. However I am sure what ever Mark decides will be fine.

On a side note I suggest using the edit button to add extra responses to the same post so you don't end up quad-posting

oops, didn't notice i made these all on the same thread, i had several tabs open sorry

 

[DemonSlayer873]

metas will happen with or without classes
if a component/module becomes too poweful nerfing a single piece of gear will affect less people than nerfing a whole class

If balance is done right the only meta that might form will be for the most fun class however without classes or restrictions balance is impossible there will always be this ability that works the best with that ability and this other ability

 

[TankHunter678]

If balance is done right the only meta that might form will be for the most fun class however without classes or restrictions balance is impossible there will always be this ability that works the best with that ability and this other ability

Even in a diablo-esque game like Path of Exile there are cookie cutter meta builds.

Still does not stop people from being inventive.

 

[phoenix]

Trees following the Holy Trinity (Tank, DPS, Heal)

Under my described system such a build that combines both Tank DPS and heal would be a crappy build that has neither good Tank capabilities, good DPS nor good heals.

...

So much this!!!!!

 

[Squid Boss]

Under my described system such a build that combines both Tank DPS and heal would be a crappy build that has neither good Tank capabilities, good DPS nor good heals.

As it should be.

 

[GreatKhan]

Oh yes...I remember that. While we can only afford to model one frame for a future funding goal, I'd like to be able to do more in the future.

Or....it could be one omniframe, but you could buy different looks for it in the future. Hmmm, what to do?

but the multi frames make it so nice to have specific ability sets unless you are thinking of having a reactor determining which abilities are available to use (which at that point why not just allow for different frames)..

hoping addons will be a thing in ember and if so..

-- lib_ItemCard
-- by: James Harless

--Hacky McHack asks if we can get all of our code to use the same var names for ids
item_id = item.itemId or item.item_id or item.item_guid
item_sdb_id = item.item_sdb_id or item.itemTypeId or item.itemSdbId

 

[Brezals]

What class would the first frame be?

pretty sure everyone loved TigerClaw

 

[Squid Boss]

pretty sure everyone loved TigerClaw

I didn't.

 

[Hoopdy]

Yeah, the frames system was always so all over the place during development. Whenever they seemed to settle on a single design for a long period of time, they'd swap over to another one with little due mention. Remember one of the very oldest working systems for it? You were searching for modules to use the skills out in the wild, as well as a massive tree of slight differentiation between each selection that felt like it made the customization tailored.

Then they scrapped it for a brief time for a universal leveling system with the frames, which I found particularly odd. It was brief, but then they moved over to what felt like a bit of a watered-down version of the original frames system, but with some new additions I sort of liked. Given I was off-and-on over the course of the last few years in development, I wouldn't know if they kept changing it even more, but all I know was I'd always log back in to some sort of crazy new UI to bugger about with.