There were a LOT of responses to this thread and I will get to all responses slowly, but I want to clear this up first since this is a fundamental thing.
The tiers have no sort of vertical progression involved. The tech tree is simply a format of unlocking new gear. The tiers are simply ways to categorize them. You play T1 to unlock T2 stuff, which isn't more powerful. Unlocking stuff in higher tiers simply means more options, and "kits" are a way to group them.
The tiers have no sort of vertical progression involved. The tech tree is simply a format of unlocking new gear. The tiers are simply ways to categorize them. You play T1 to unlock T2 stuff, which isn't more powerful. Unlocking stuff in higher tiers simply means more options, and "kits" are a way to group them.
Your heart's in the right place and we're on the same side here; I'm just saying that using the terminology of T1 and T2, etc. is dangerous because it creates a psychological effect we've seen enough of already and need to avoid. Higher number=bigger=better in the minds of the average brain; therefore I find it unwise to use such jargon when trying to express our intent. Semantics to some, but in my experience, semantics can make all the difference in the long run.
Likes:
NightStroke and phoenix
Wow, really? What a bitch, Who the fuck buys her daughter a Lexus, Jesus, couldn't she have bought a better car like Mercedes or a BMW?
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Wrote about this topic before:
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Wrote about this topic before:
I assume you read up on my points system with limiting Offense, Defense, support and utility. Let me elaborate more on it.
If we throw in passive boosts (like perks from FF), primary and secondary weapons into the point system and let those passives and weapons also cost points then it could be balanced easily. Give a player 10 slots and let him fill it up with as many weapons, passive and abilities as he likes as long as he stays within the 4 limits being "Offense", "Defense", "support" and "utility". Lets call them the 4 attributes. passives cost the least, weapons cost somewhat more and abilities the most. If you want to play as an Ember magician then you can will everything up with abilities but you'll have exhausted all your points by your fifth ability and won't have any weapons or passives. You can go fully loaded with guns but guns are kind of heavy and you'll miss out on those sweet abilities and passive boosts. If you want you can go full passive with melee only. Whatever flouts your boat.
From the start every players has 100 points in each attribute he can spend on abilities, passives and weaponry. The way you specialize in one of the attributes is by equipping gear such as motors, armor plating, pistons, thrusters,etc. that increase one attribute at the cost of decreasing the other. Heavier equipment give slightly more points but increase your hitbox size and make you slower.
limiting it with "mass", "energy" and "CPU" (like some suggested from FF) is to me arbitrary but if you limit at the root of the problem by directly limiting the attributes you make it impossible to attain the holy trinity.
some clarification:
Offense: Raw damage output, damage enhancers, elemental mods.
Defense: armor increases, shields, invulnerability, elemental resistances, damage negations.
support: buffing other players, healing other players, enhancing stats of other players, anything that interacts with other players, AOE, crouwdcontroll, stun, aggro-takers.
utility: self help like movement enhancers, non damage dealing deployables, barriers, self support, self heal.
if an ability, belongs in multiple categories then it'll cost points in all those categories. Some examples from FF would be:
Afterburner: heavy utility.
heavy turret: Offense and support
trailblazer: Support and utility
thunderdome: Defense, support and utility
Fusioncanon: Offense and support
Necrotic Bite perk: Offense
Invigorate perk: Offense and support.
Explosive Rounds: Offense and support(because of AOE)
Health Surge perk: utility
Now all we have to do is add perks and weapons to the progression tree and we're set. ^_^
(my advice, don't copy over FF abilities, perks or weapons, they are crappy and unbalanced, better start making your own unlique stuff like FF never existed)
Here is an example of how I image the Ember progression tree to look like. It's a teck-tree from "Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth"
If we throw in passive boosts (like perks from FF), primary and secondary weapons into the point system and let those passives and weapons also cost points then it could be balanced easily. Give a player 10 slots and let him fill it up with as many weapons, passive and abilities as he likes as long as he stays within the 4 limits being "Offense", "Defense", "support" and "utility". Lets call them the 4 attributes. passives cost the least, weapons cost somewhat more and abilities the most. If you want to play as an Ember magician then you can will everything up with abilities but you'll have exhausted all your points by your fifth ability and won't have any weapons or passives. You can go fully loaded with guns but guns are kind of heavy and you'll miss out on those sweet abilities and passive boosts. If you want you can go full passive with melee only. Whatever flouts your boat.
From the start every players has 100 points in each attribute he can spend on abilities, passives and weaponry. The way you specialize in one of the attributes is by equipping gear such as motors, armor plating, pistons, thrusters,etc. that increase one attribute at the cost of decreasing the other. Heavier equipment give slightly more points but increase your hitbox size and make you slower.
limiting it with "mass", "energy" and "CPU" (like some suggested from FF) is to me arbitrary but if you limit at the root of the problem by directly limiting the attributes you make it impossible to attain the holy trinity.
some clarification:
Offense: Raw damage output, damage enhancers, elemental mods.
Defense: armor increases, shields, invulnerability, elemental resistances, damage negations.
support: buffing other players, healing other players, enhancing stats of other players, anything that interacts with other players, AOE, crouwdcontroll, stun, aggro-takers.
utility: self help like movement enhancers, non damage dealing deployables, barriers, self support, self heal.
if an ability, belongs in multiple categories then it'll cost points in all those categories. Some examples from FF would be:
Afterburner: heavy utility.
heavy turret: Offense and support
trailblazer: Support and utility
thunderdome: Defense, support and utility
Fusioncanon: Offense and support
Necrotic Bite perk: Offense
Invigorate perk: Offense and support.
Explosive Rounds: Offense and support(because of AOE)
Health Surge perk: utility
Now all we have to do is add perks and weapons to the progression tree and we're set. ^_^
(my advice, don't copy over FF abilities, perks or weapons, they are crappy and unbalanced, better start making your own unlique stuff like FF never existed)
Here is an example of how I image the Ember progression tree to look like. It's a teck-tree from "Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth"
I just quote this here for truth.
The problem here is that MMO have been doing the "class" system for soooooooooo long now, almost three decades? That people have like extremely hard time thinking outside that engraved design.
Freedom of character build, from customization, to your armor, weapon and ability is what we need. No classes, tiers, frames, other bullshit that is basically developers telling you "here I think this is best gameplay style for you". Give me even dozens of pieces that I can build a character from, and I will do it myself. The best part is, that you still will be able to build your healers, and tanks, and dps guys, but you wouldn't have to be if you don't want to, and even if you go for those "standards" I bet with diversity in weapons, armor, and abilities that can be mixed and matched together, there will be many builds of each "class"
The hardest part about having such freedom of character build is balance. Balancing so many pieces that can be mixed and match together can be a bitch, but that's why they start slow, they start with basic "jack of all trades master of none" patterns, and then diverge into more specific areas aimed at particular style of gameplay, one weapon, armor piece and ability at a time.
Ember (after early FireFall) wants to be the only game that wants to pull off this awesome concept of skill based shooter in a open world. That is absolutely fantastic and unique, very little games come close to doing so. That said, it totally pains me to think that even this game will succumb to the class system, like thousands of mmos before it. I mean devs will do what they think works best for the game, but it would be a bummer, and a missed opportunity.
The problem here is that MMO have been doing the "class" system for soooooooooo long now, almost three decades? That people have like extremely hard time thinking outside that engraved design.
Freedom of character build, from customization, to your armor, weapon and ability is what we need. No classes, tiers, frames, other bullshit that is basically developers telling you "here I think this is best gameplay style for you". Give me even dozens of pieces that I can build a character from, and I will do it myself. The best part is, that you still will be able to build your healers, and tanks, and dps guys, but you wouldn't have to be if you don't want to, and even if you go for those "standards" I bet with diversity in weapons, armor, and abilities that can be mixed and matched together, there will be many builds of each "class"
The hardest part about having such freedom of character build is balance. Balancing so many pieces that can be mixed and match together can be a bitch, but that's why they start slow, they start with basic "jack of all trades master of none" patterns, and then diverge into more specific areas aimed at particular style of gameplay, one weapon, armor piece and ability at a time.
Ember (after early FireFall) wants to be the only game that wants to pull off this awesome concept of skill based shooter in a open world. That is absolutely fantastic and unique, very little games come close to doing so. That said, it totally pains me to think that even this game will succumb to the class system, like thousands of mmos before it. I mean devs will do what they think works best for the game, but it would be a bummer, and a missed opportunity.
Likes:
Grammaton
I still feel we need to dump the whole "personal tech tree" idea about as much as we need to dump the all holy trinity. Having unlocks be a main part of the global community by stemming from building a base is IMO a much better option. It would also be where the big resource dump in the game would lie.
Miata for life!!!
Miata for life!!!
Can we just start from the basic? Like how to deal with challenges in game from something as simple as an enemy and work from there?
Like is it the real basic shoot 3 shots and they die? Do they have hp? Must they have weakspots? How can people overcome an enemy other than using a gun and just shooting? How can an enemy overcome a player, by shooting them too? Can the player mitigate or attempt to resist being overcome, same with enemies?
Like is it the real basic shoot 3 shots and they die? Do they have hp? Must they have weakspots? How can people overcome an enemy other than using a gun and just shooting? How can an enemy overcome a player, by shooting them too? Can the player mitigate or attempt to resist being overcome, same with enemies?
Likes:
Daynen
I guess it could go either way in a classless game.
The negative side being that it would be difficult to balance as some abilities would definitely get favoritism, so even though there would be more options less would actually get used. The other being that classes kinda represent personality types imo and this would be lost (like we had with the Firecat and Tigerclaw)
The positive being that no one can complain about another class having X or Y advantage over them, but since you could switch at any time in FF anyway i'm sure they'll find something else to complain about. Like particular guns or abilities.
Or worse, particular combos.
The negative side being that it would be difficult to balance as some abilities would definitely get favoritism, so even though there would be more options less would actually get used. The other being that classes kinda represent personality types imo and this would be lost (like we had with the Firecat and Tigerclaw)
The positive being that no one can complain about another class having X or Y advantage over them, but since you could switch at any time in FF anyway i'm sure they'll find something else to complain about. Like particular guns or abilities.
Or worse, particular combos.
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Likes:
Ammara
@Sn0wfIak3 if individual abilities are being a problem they can be teak. If certain ability combos over perform they can be looked into for tweaking.
Path of Exile which has no class system does have cases of meta builds, if they overperform then they are looked into and necessary changes are done which forces builds to adapt and keep the meta build from overtaking everything.
One cannot eliminate whining, that is an impossibility.
Ability favoritism would come from their design. This would be true regardless of a class based or classless system.
Path of Exile which has no class system does have cases of meta builds, if they overperform then they are looked into and necessary changes are done which forces builds to adapt and keep the meta build from overtaking everything.
One cannot eliminate whining, that is an impossibility.
Ability favoritism would come from their design. This would be true regardless of a class based or classless system.
As some seems to want a tier system, and other a classless system.
Each system have it's own good and bad points. But done right, an hybrid from the two could be a good idea. In my opinion, The Secret World progression system is a good example of such hybrid progression system.
More info on the system on this blog post : http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/404/feature/6219/The-Freeform-Progression-System.html/page/1
As an illustration, here is a very fast draft as such system, that could be applied to Ember (and Firefall, RIP).
System: You can select a yellow zone, and two blue zone (plus the green one which is always available). With that, you have to create your own build. Will you play a sniper with supports abilities (long-range DPS + support), a close-range bonus support (tank + bonus support), or some sort of self-regenerating heavy tank (tanky-tank + support)? Make it your own way.
You have freedom to build every class you could imagine, while having to rely on your team-mate to provide what you lack.
Each system have it's own good and bad points. But done right, an hybrid from the two could be a good idea. In my opinion, The Secret World progression system is a good example of such hybrid progression system.
More info on the system on this blog post : http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/404/feature/6219/The-Freeform-Progression-System.html/page/1
As an illustration, here is a very fast draft as such system, that could be applied to Ember (and Firefall, RIP).
System: You can select a yellow zone, and two blue zone (plus the green one which is always available). With that, you have to create your own build. Will you play a sniper with supports abilities (long-range DPS + support), a close-range bonus support (tank + bonus support), or some sort of self-regenerating heavy tank (tanky-tank + support)? Make it your own way.
You have freedom to build every class you could imagine, while having to rely on your team-mate to provide what you lack.
When you have a robust enough system of individual pieces, there's no need for "classes" to exist as a choice; people will discover them on their own. However, having "suggestions" available so players can simply pick an archetypal set of abilities with one click would be a great convenience for those who want it without stepping on anyone else's toes.
Perhaps a suggested optimization system would be good. Let's envision this for a moment.
Let's say a player decides "my squad needs a good healer for this mission." He clicks a button and his 'garage/hangar/whatever' picks out a set of gear straight optimized for maximum healing. He then makes adjustments based on his taste, perhaps better boosters for less firepower or better health for less move speed or whatever...and off he goes to heal for his squad.
All we really need from the class system is the ability to pick a suggested setup with one click. If a tech system allows that, but doesn't constrain us to it, I think we'll have the happy medium we need.
Perhaps a suggested optimization system would be good. Let's envision this for a moment.
Let's say a player decides "my squad needs a good healer for this mission." He clicks a button and his 'garage/hangar/whatever' picks out a set of gear straight optimized for maximum healing. He then makes adjustments based on his taste, perhaps better boosters for less firepower or better health for less move speed or whatever...and off he goes to heal for his squad.
All we really need from the class system is the ability to pick a suggested setup with one click. If a tech system allows that, but doesn't constrain us to it, I think we'll have the happy medium we need.
Likes:
Grammaton and NightStroke
What I might suggest is that at the very beginning of the game there should be a merchant who would sell "kits". These kits would be groups of complementary mods/abilities that go together to form what might be considered "class", however the player can pick and choose whether to use all of them, or to purchase multiple kits to mix and match. This way a starting player will have something familiar to base their choices off of.
If they enjoy playing as a sniper then they can buy a sniper kit, but perhaps they also want a heal so they might purchase a medic kit and take one of the heal abilities from it...
If they enjoy playing as a sniper then they can buy a sniper kit, but perhaps they also want a heal so they might purchase a medic kit and take one of the heal abilities from it...