What can Em8er learn from Firefalls' model?

[psychronicle]

One thing to remember is that a THMPR run in Em8-er probably won't be like Firefall. The enemies are going to be warriors, not the local fauna. Your average THMPR run in Em8-er is going to be like a Melding Thump in Firefall.

That sounds good to me. Though as to pave way for variety - it would be nice to have less intense versions I remember the tougher meld thumps could easily overwhelm under-skilled players.

Additionally, when the Tsi-Hu attack us with their Kaiju, they're not limited by the number of players. As long as the servers can handle it, they can attack with whatever they have. While it's not forcing "skill" per se, it can force intelligent play or the usage of group tactics to drive the enemy back. Kaiju can also easily be designed to require skill and cooperation to take down. (Trust me, get a group of 100 people to take down 6 things at the same time that are moving, ie body-mounted shield generators on a Kaiju, it will take them a while.) The beautiful thing about this is mechanics can be inserted and trigged by player numbers, and they can be developed, put in, then only used when RNG determines that the "EMP-No-Fly-Zone" Kaiju should come out.

I'm curious to see how optimization will be done for 100+ on screen with UE4 while achieving good network and client side performance. That net code will have to be tiggggght.

If we're looking for competition, look to charts. Damage done, healing done, people revived, automated turret damage, defense repair values, time spent airborne in combat(silly but whatever), damage taken before death, enemies killed, headshots achieved.

That's what I like to call faux-competition. It's basically PvE spreadsheet battles. Don't get me wrong, I like competing on the charts when raiding and what not, but that's just begging for more. Spreadsheet battles are more of the same and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but we need variety. Imagine a PvPvE scenario where people are not only competing for numbers, but they're actually competing against each other.

Player versus Player creates a huge wave of variety in of itself as the skill of the players and scenarios they're in can largely effect the outcome. Pure PvE just isn't fun and in today's gaming world doesn't last long. Killing off PvP (among many things) is what killed Firefall.

Not to mention you can have open-world enemies drop different things based on how you killed them.- If you kill an enemy with all torso-shots, they might drop a piece of tech from their head, or if you kill them with headshots alone, a piece of armor from the torso that can be used for research or it could be combined with other tech to modify a crafted item. Skill can definitely be rewarded in the open world, and the Tsi-Hu can and should be able to overcome a wall of gunfire. It just takes some creative design.

That's pretty dope. I'm down with that, how loot distribution would work will be interesting to see in large scale battles. On one hand it is nice to see everyone getting something for their efforts, but on the other hand that can cripple the in-game economy. A common problem with PvE is loot distribution. If you make it purely performance based then you'll scare away the majority of casual players.

 

[AdmiralStryker]

That sounds good to me. Though as to pave way for variety - it would be nice to have less intense versions I remember the tougher meld thumps could easily overwhelm under-skilled players.



I'm curious to see how optimization will be done for 100+ on screen with UE4 while achieving good network and client side performance. That net code will have to be tiggggght.



That's what I like to call faux-competition. It's basically PvE spreadsheet battles. Don't get me wrong, I like competing on the charts when raiding and what not, but that's just begging for more. Spreadsheet battles are more of the same and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but we need variety. Imagine a PvPvE scenario where people are not only competing for numbers, but they're actually competing against each other.

Player versus Player creates a huge wave of variety in of itself as the skill of the players and scenarios they're in can largely effect the outcome. Pure PvE just isn't fun and in today's gaming world doesn't last long. Killing off PvP (among many things) is what killed Firefall.



That's pretty dope. I'm down with that, how loot distribution would work will be interesting to see in large scale battles. On one hand it is nice to see everyone getting something for their efforts, but on the other hand that can cripple the in-game economy. A common problem with PvE is loot distribution. If you make it purely performance based then you'll scare away the majority of casual players.

As for faux-competition: Those are just suggestions. Obviously other things can be added.

Lore-wise, humanity has no reason to fight against the Tsi-Hu and each other. All the Gatestriders are equally stuck on Em8-er. If we want to compete for ownership of bases, okay. Compete for Tsi-Hu kills, okay. I hate to say this but direct PVP is not going to be the at-launch nature of the game, it's going to be PVE form everything that the devs have told us.

For loot distribution-Once again, just suggestions and they don't have to occur with everything. I want to see a decent amount of the player-base be able to get near the top tier, and have the very top reserved for those who know what they're doing. Skill should matter.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

Movement: being able to dodge enemy fire and attacks, while directing it away from the "VIP" (the THMPR)

OR THE HEAVY FRAME CAN USE IT SHIELD TO EAT THE BULLETS BEFORE IT HITS THE THMPR.
HEAVY FRAME SHIELD IS CAPABLE TO ABSORB DAMAGE TO FUEL UP THE POWER GAUGE TO DEAL MASSIVE DAMAGE.

player's non-regenerating armor or health

ISN'T THAT SH*T BALANCED ENOUGH? NOT LIKE THOSE STUPID MODERN CALL OF DUTY OR WHAT EVER SH*T
WITH THAT RETARDED REGEN TO SWALLOW TONS OF BULLETS, BUT A SINGLE BUTTER KNIFE CAN INSTAGIB YOU.
LEARN HOW TO RETREAT.

Beast Tsi-Hu as dying to them makes everyone else's life hell

allows it to pick out the easiest targets to gain power to take out the next weakest.

KEEP IN MIND THAT THOSE BLOODY BEAST-MODE BULLSH*TTING RABBITS CAN HACK 'N SLASH YOUR FRAME WITH LESS EFFORTS.
NOW IMAGINE THAT F*CKER KILLING 10 N00BS.
STEROID-BUFFED-BECAUSE-F*CK-YOU-ALL-WITHOUT-LUBE BLOODY RABBIT.
YEAH. GAME OVER, MATE.

 

[Nalessa]

It might just be a small thing, but something I would love to see in Em-8ber is also the random supply caches lying around that Firefall had.

Sure, they never had much in it, but nonetheless I always opened them, it's just fun to find random goodies lying around.

That and the UI.
I liked how simple and fairly minimalistic the UI was in closed beta.
Simple but very effective at showing exactly what info you needed without cluttering the screen and blocking the view.

Got a quest done? Just a small notification on the left and a simple push of the "N" button and either left click or right click for a quick summary of goodies you were rewarded with or dismiss it without having to open a quest log or anything.

Being able to reposition all of the UI aswell to where you prefer it to be, change the target reticule to a different one that you prefer using, easy fan made modding plug ins.

Only part that was meh was the inventory screen, as in the items themselves.
I'd really like the ability to have actual tabs like in ESO where first tab in your backpack shows everything, second one only weapons, third armor, fourth consumables, fifth crafting materials, sixth random items like lockpicks.
Hope something similar can be made for this game where you quickly can check what weapons you have, or what resources, etc etc ...

Sounds were amazing aswell in closed beta, the laser HMG from Rhino felt really lasery and powerful.
Afterburner sound and visual effects made it feel like you're boosting at super high speed!
Crater felt like you slammed down hard on enemies.
Only wimpy sounds were the Biotech Needler primary fire and the Assault rifle (the early thumper concept they showed back then had soooo much better assault rifle sounds!)

 

[BunnyHunny]

It might just be a small thing, but something I would love to see in Em-8ber is also the random supply caches lying around that Firefall had.

Sure, they never had much in it, but nonetheless I always opened them, it's just fun to find random goodies lying around.

Now that you mention this, it reminds me of the crates in Amazon.

There was a set amount of crates and they were in set locations, all across the map.
In order to be able to get to (some of) them, it was necessary to push back the melding in certain areas of the map, so not all crates were always available.

Looting all of them granted an achievement, which rewarded the player with a unique item (apotheosis module).
Could be an item, a blueprint, a cosmetic...


Also, there could be "rare mobs" or "rare encounters", which pop up in enemy territory (somewhat regularly) and are marked on the map.
They could have a max. idle time, so that they would despawn if the player base does not manage to
-conquer the map, all the way to the location of the rare encounter
-and start attacking it
within x minutes.

These rare encounters could reward more/higher quality resources or probably exclusive resources/items/blueprints.

Stuff like that would make for a good reason to explore the map and to fight in certain areas.

 

[Destination]

we brainstorm ways to make the game punish death(and reward player skill) in open-world PVE

This deserves its own thread. It's not easy. Lots and lots of implications and branching. Doesn't matter if it's too early, in fact, discussing this early is better than later IMO, even if we had to speak generally and use 'examples' that possibly (and most likely) won't apply to the letter. I think that's the best approach: 1st to state what you're trying to achieve, then to come up with a fictional example in order to discuss the fundamentals behind it.
Playing armchair dev is fun (if its done constructively and open to debate and criticism... we don't want another Uhmari).

 

[Mahdi]

Yes the firefall forums were very toxic indeed. Though even they aren't as bad as Dungeon Defenders 2.


But! Here at Em-8ER there isn't any toxicity.

*hint hint wink wink get a clue buy a vowel solve the puzzle*

 

[Despair]

Wow you guys have a very great discussion here....this is rather rare on the internet especially regarding game development

 

[Alan Jones]

FireFall had Sunken Harbor and that was a pretty good arena. Jet ball was great as well, just you, your friends against a few others. Duels are nice if you have the right place to have them. Skills against skills, its how we hone our skills. Open word pvp just makes a game pay to win in today's terms. I have always loved the PvE games but I really started in Ultima Online before candy land was made for it. So defending your stuff was an item. Em8er will be more involved as you try to get resources and possibly wind up in a localized war front being attacked by the best NPC Ai there is in my opinion. Flame on if you have to Im not leaving

 

[BunnyHunny]

Open word pvp just makes a game pay to win in today's terms.

Flawless logic.

 

[Sn0wfIak3]

For this idea, i like to work from the point of view that Firefall was doomed from the start. The engine was outdated, it was a small team, too much money was pumped into it, the expectations were too high. There was (imo) nothing the developers could have done to make the game succesfull. They only could have negated some of the damage.

So from that perspective...

Don't nerf the fun, don't alienate your loyal fanbase. If something is fun, nerf it anyway you want but keep it, if something has fanboys, nerf it anyway you want but don't remove it.

They're the ones that start the armies, they're the ones that have the most influence on your casual playerbase.

 

[TheJayde]

What I'm going to say will maybe be controversial... The problems that occurred in the last iteration were on multiple fronts.

1 - Grummz couldn't stick to his vision. In my view, he does the same thing that I do on my projects. I work on a project and get it done right up to where it starts to look like the ideal end result, and then a new exciting project comes up and demands my attention. The game went from PvP focused to PvE... the game went from a skill based shooter to be more reliant on its abilities to overcome. There was a lot of inner turmoil that discusses this as well, and I was pretty close with the team for Red5. I have a lot... of swag... Lulz - I just realized Im actually wearing a Firefall shirt under my work clothes... Anyways... Grummz had a great vision, and all that needs to be done is to stick to it. I enjoy PvP and PvE, but the game was sooooooo good and felt so perfect in the beginning, when it was almost wholly PvP focused. The game became diluted as it proceeded.

2 - This is part of the problem with my first issue... but don't listen to the players so much. Listen to us... but make the game you want. Most gamers don't know what game they want really. I keep saying that I hate Grinding... but I played the shit out of Ark, Archage, and BDO... and I'm currently playing Dark and Light... all of which has grinding. I hate grinding, but its the type of game I play the most. I'm an idiot. I don't really know what I want.

3 - The Cash shop didn't have a lot appealing to it. The game was awesome, but like... I just was not interested in any of the cash shop items. I Bought the Commander pack... and got like two other bronze backs to give away at PAX. If I'm not interested in these aspects, I'm not going to spend.

Flawless logic.

I believe his point was satirical, but... he isn't actually wrong... I got into a couple of Mobile games recently... one was basically a clone of Game of War. People drop so much money on those games, it's absurd. And you can see how much money people drop by the number of chests you get. People are so willing to throw their money out for an advantage... Its stupid. PC players are particularly resilient in rejecting this concept, but there is a subset of people out there who would rather throw money at the game, than play the game. The key is setting advancement competitions between players, with money standing in for time. You can get almost everything without money... but its going to take you a year instead of 12 seconds.

 

[203]

@TheJayde firefall started out as pve game. i dont know if its grummz, the competetive crowd's or the chinese's fault it got pvp, but i do agree a lot of parts felt tacked on badly.

The reason people hate grinding is tediousness vs speed of progress. if i have to make a dent in the global population of mob-x to get five gold pieces after 3 hours, i wont be playing for long as it feels like working.

harshly underpaid, exploitive slave like work akin to asian sewing or african mining "orphan".

 

[TheJayde]

@TheJayde Snip.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. The first iteration of gameplay in the beta was so PvP oriented, they didnt even have an overworld. It was a checkerboard island as we called it. They may have had PvE stuff in videos, like the Thumper Video where it was all predetermined... including the Rare Drop, and the Chosen Invasion at the end. For a very long time, the entire game's focus was PvP from stating that they would support the prize pool for their first season of a Million Dollars, to putting out almost only PvP Maps. I can't say for sure either way... and I suspect it wasn't focused on either... but at its initial CBT the game was focused on PvP.

In Dark and Light, my Gaming Community and I built a massive temple in the mountains. This took endless grinding, but I got to see the temple coming up and arising. I got to see the progress despite it being undefended, and vulnerable the entire time. Speed of Progress is important to keep low because if you actually complete the task, you're done. You stop playing. Having an item like Sulfuras or Thunderaan in WoW was something people could progress towards that kept them playing. For me though - it wasnt some personal item I was seeking, it's the ability to build something awesome and massive for my friends and I to operate out of. Star Citizen has a similar effect with the ships... allowing an entire team to work out of a ship towards a single goal. Working together > working for self.

 

[203]

i have to admit i didnt enter the closed play test, only the open phase and bought in afterwards.

also, when I wrote of grinding I was thinking about silk road online where you spend hours farming up stuff for quests with low drop chance and little gold rewards. I don't remember if your equipment decayed, but I deleted it relatively fast anyway.

 

[BunnyHunny]

he isn't actually wrong...

Yes he is.

I got into a couple of Mobile games recently... [...]
People drop so much money on those games, it's absurd. And you can see how much money people drop by the number of chests you get.
People are so willing to throw their money out for an advantage... Its stupid. [...]
there is a subset of people out there who would rather throw money at the game, than play the game.
The key is setting advancement competitions between players, with money standing in for time. You can get almost everything without money... but its going to take you a year instead of 12 seconds.

Yes. Many people are lazy/bad and like to pay in order to get unfair advantages over other people, so that they can feel like they are "good" for once.

And that has what to do with the correlation between open world and p2w?
Exactly
Nothing at all.

P2w means to get an unfair advantage over other (free) players, by paying money.
That has nothing what so ever to do with the game being open world or not.

Instead of wanting to agree or disagree with someone, you should try to stick with what is true and then base your comment on that.

 

[BunnyHunny]

Speed of Progress is important to keep low because if you actually complete the task, you're done. You stop playing.

Unless you are talking about a game that has a low amount of content and will not get any more content over time, this is not true.
Or a game that is generally boring and bad.

Keeping progress generally slow, is a matter of developer laziness, a matter of budget size, or a matter of making a game interesting for those who love to pay in order to get what others play for.

The time it takes for a game to be played through, depends on progression speed and also on the amount of available content.

If progression is too slow, the game becomes boring, no matter the amount of available content.

Having an item like Sulfuras or Thunderaan in WoW was something people could progress towards that kept them playing.

Getting legendaries is just one thing.
And something that most players never participated in.

WoW was not an interesting game because all progress was slow (which was not the case).
WoW was an interesting game because there was an incredible amount of progress to be made.

Blizzard were smart and added a lot of achievements.
Some of them were small and fast, some of them required a lot of time.
Some of them required the player to complete multiple "fast" achievements, which made the overall achievement a "slow" one.


Of course, some things took a long time, but progress was not generally slow.
The overall possible progression was just so much, while new content was continuously added to the game, that it took forever to "finish the game".