Some thoughts about crafting/durability/items/lootz

[Ronyn]

It's more fun when you're always have to chase over something.

Yes and it's covered. There is far more involved in the churning economy of war than just what we wear on our body.
Perma-break exists on a great many things in the game that will need to be replaced time and again....
just not the players primary gear.

 

[Daynen]

Permabreaking gear was one of the most important parts of the FF beta. Love it or hate, it was important. The idea that your gear could and would eventually break meant you had to make a conscious choice of which gear to bring on any given excursion. Did you bring a regular old weapon that would get the job done? Or did you think you were going to need that badass purple with the insane fire rate? It was a system of choice and consequence. Choice+consequence=GAMEPLAY.

With that said, I agree the beta system was in need of serious work. The inevitability of losing gear wasn't very cool; the fact that crafted gear could be "repaired" by a "repair pool" was kind of silly; it effectively meant that crafted gear was just more durable. I do like the idea of being able to replace worn-out parts and I do like the POSSIBILITY of losing your favorite weapon if you slack on maintenance or pull it out at the wrong time in desperation; but the INEVITABILITY of losing it was the downer. Also, the inventory and salvaging UI was hideous; it's one of the few things that post-launch actually improved upon with multi-salvage, rather than breaking EVERYTHING down one at a time with countless unneeded clicks.

As for crafting, it needs to be more than just another way to get "the best gear." If my philosophy above is acknowledged and understood, then crafting becomes an integral part of the game. If crafting is important for more than just maintaining armor and weapons, then whole new worlds of gameplay open.

 

[Krhys]

Bin quality of raw mats/components (why is 'purple' iron better than 'blue' iron, anyway???) and bring back constraints but based on one single quality of material(s).

You want a sniper rifle with better range and damage, fit a longer barrel but your weapon is now a little heavier, so maybe you carry a little less ammo to compensate. Or maybe turn the rifle into the mother of all elephant stoppers but can only fit 2 mid range abilities to your frame instead of 3. Still a bit on the heavy side? I know, let's fit a laser rifle instead, it's much lighter, allowing me to fit those 3 ability modules I love but it does take substantial power to operate so damage output will need to take a hit when I build it. But it's got great range and RoF, I'll keep it! Now onto my suit armour...

I loved that aspect of open beta FF and crafting was awesome, when you were trying to squeeze out the last drop of mass and power out of your rig components. All the system needed was some tweaking; buy orders in the market where buyers can specify the required constraints and crafters can build them in one swift move on securing the deal, crafting an entire item while being able to manipulate the components before hitting go NOT building each component before knowing what the end item was going to be like, having considerably less levels of improvement on each components (i.e. in FF there were 1000 levels of quality, let's have maybe just five or ten stages of improvement per component that take away logical amounts from your carriage capacity and available power), etc.

That's the sort of crafting system I would like to see make a return in Ember.

 

[HighCaliber]

I'm a huge fan of crafting and all I can say is what in the world is happening in here right now? Why are you people so worried about chest armor and rifles breaking? Ember is supposed to have base building according to the indeagogo breakdown. Grummz said something about there being other vehicles. Ronin is talking about there being all kinds of other stuff that breaks. Are you just ignoring them or what? Have you guys even considered how costly that will be for us to create, maintain and replace? Can you imagine how much time it will take to collect enough resources for that stuff? Do you just not get it? yeah ok Firefall kind of needed gear to break because there was pretty much nothing else in the game to make and break. Ember will have a whole lot more. Stop thinking in such a limited box of "gear" and look at the bigger picture.

P.S. This was one of the biggest problems in the firefall community. Not enough understanding of the big picture.

 

[Luisedgm]

If gear gonna take damage when you're using it or getting hit - this could do the job. But if it will be standard WoW-like "x% gear dmg upon death" there will no actual impact.

Yet still perma-break could rly sustain replayability. Once peeps get the best stuff usually they quit. I know, a lot off them hoarding that stuff/money and losing it is their worst nightmare but you know, it reminds me of Scrudge McDuck. Items/cash in the name of items/cash. It's more fun when you're always have to chase over something.

There is no reason for permabreak if there are other options, and there are other options.

 

[OhhPaigey]

I hate durability. I want my items to last forever, unless you can lose items from dying, then maybe it's okay.

 

[Sik San]

I hate durability. I want my items to last forever, unless you can lose items from dying, then maybe it's okay.

That's pretty unique standpoint. If you hate repairs, gear lost on death should be your nightmare

There is no reason for permabreak if there are other options, and there are other options.

If you're going to make a sandbox game there is huge reason for permabreak.

I'm a huge fan of crafting and all I can say is what in the world is happening in here right now? Why are you people so worried about chest armor and rifles breaking? Ember is supposed to have base building according to the indeagogo breakdown. Grummz said something about there being other vehicles. Ronin is talking about there being all kinds of other stuff that breaks. Are you just ignoring them or what? Have you guys even considered how costly that will be for us to create, maintain and replace? Can you imagine how much time it will take to collect enough resources for that stuff? Do you just not get it? yeah ok Firefall kind of needed gear to break because there was pretty much nothing else in the game to make and break. Ember will have a whole lot more. Stop thinking in such a limited box of "gear" and look at the bigger picture.

P.S. This was one of the biggest problems in the firefall community. Not enough understanding of the big picture.

"Have you guys even considered how costly that will be for us to create, maintain and replace? Can you imagine how much time it will take to collect enough resources for that stuff?" Ofc we don't but you clearly do, right?) This game should be all about "create, maintain and replace" thing. So I don't rly see the point, why shouldn't players create, maintain and replace their gear too. Too much theme park games played - ppl just wanna stick with their beloved purple gear 4ever!

P.S. Rewards with ZERO risk is what makes modern games stale and boring.

 

[mayhemmike]

I dont like gear degradation for the reason that I have had the same irl gear for years and have been through hard use. None of my firearms have had to be replaced and the only parts that have been were upgrade accessories. I think the last major gear loss was an old ww2 bayonet the handle and the blade has been used and sharpened so much. Now it sits on my desk. Not one of my main gear kit has had to be replaced or fixed to prevent failure except a tent and a not very well made pack. I have kept them all maintained depending on the item and how it was used and how much takes maybe an hr to clean. But why would I want to do something so tedious and boring in a game.

Gear fails and requires repairs and replacements at times. But if maintained and cared for it doesnt happen often

In games where you are supposed to be a professional, whom you would think would know proper care and maintenance for their kit, why should we be forced to endure a repair mechanic that follows a set number of rounds and repairs until you cant use it anymore

I dont want and typically dont have to get rid or have to stop using or stop enjoying my irl gear. Why should I have to stop enjoying gear in a game.

 

[Sik San]

I dont like gear degradation for the reason that I have had the same irl gear for years and have been through hard use. None of my firearms have had to be replaced and the only parts that have been were upgrade accessories. I think the last major gear loss was an old ww2 bayonet the handle and the blade has been used and sharpened so much. Now it sits on my desk. Not one of my main gear kit has had to be replaced or fixed to prevent failure except a tent and a not very well made pack. I have kept them all maintained depending on the item and how it was used and how much takes maybe an hr to clean. But why would I want to do something so tedious and boring in a game.

Gear fails and requires repairs and replacements at times. But if maintained and cared for it doesnt happen often

In games where you are supposed to be a professional, whom you would think would know proper care and maintenance for their kit, why should we be forced to endure a repair mechanic that follows a set number of rounds and repairs until you cant use it anymore

I dont want and typically dont have to get rid or have to stop using or stop enjoying my irl gear. Why should I have to stop enjoying gear in a game.

Aye, that's a good thing giant robots/cyborgs/aliens/placeyourmob don't shoot you and your gear with rockets/lazers and stuff IRL Also, I assume, during wars and armed conflicts a lot of gear gets destroyed along with it's owners IRL, but this example doesn't mean anything just like yours above.

The only purpose of gear degradation ingame is cycling, crafting stimulation and game economics functioning. Someone crafts it, someone uses it, someone loosing it - repeat. Every theme park game with eternal gear ends up with fked up market, obsolete crafting and bored ppl with loads of BiS gear having no more goals left to play.

 

[mayhemmike]

Aye, that's a good thing giant robots/cyborgs/aliens/placeyourmob don't shoot you and your gear with rockets/lazers and stuff IRL Also, I assume, during wars and armed conflicts a lot of gear gets destroyed along with it's owners IRL, but this example doesn't mean anything just like yours above.

The only purpose of gear degradation ingame is cycling, crafting stimulation and game economics functioning. Someone crafts it, someone uses it, someone loosing it - repeat.

Actually the stuff we had in training was older and hard used and even some of the stuff on deployment was well used and it still stands. I had my gear set up the way I wanted it. So why be forced to have to replace it?

And I can get it for somethings but I have never been one to want to have to repeatedly buy something when finding it was so much fun and again being forced to have go to the tedium of being forced to repair detracts from the over all enjoyment of the game, at least for me. Hell sometimes I hated having to upgrade to something better because I liked the set up I had.

 

[Aphaz]

then why not use Fallout style repair...if your blue rifle gets down to say 50% durability, then u can:
1. use mats to repair it, or
2. use other rifles to repair it.
ofc, using w or G items requires more of them as opposed to using B ones, and ofc you could only use rifles to repair rifles and so on.
that way players would have a choice to either salvage stuf for creds or use them to repair their own equipment. also, i could be made so that, as long as your equipment is at least at 1% durability it can be repaired, but as soon as it gets to 0% it is effectivly destroyed/ruined. that way we could both have destruction of equipment or the ability to perma repair it...or something.

i personally liked the perma destruction in FF OB, and this way we could have that. also, players that hate prema loss cuold avoid it as long as they pay close attention on their equipment (and with an OS that warns you about equipment condition it would then be the players' fault if they loose their equipment due to negligence, and it would also give all players the choice of wether they want to salvage something or use it for repair parts).

 

[Sik San]

then why not use Fallout style repair...if your blue rifle gets down to say 50% durability, then u can:
1. use mats to repair it, or
2. use other rifles to repair it.
ofc, using w or G items requires more of them as opposed to using B ones, and ofc you could only use rifles to repair rifles and so on.
that way players would have a choice to either salvage stuf for creds or use them to repair their own equipment. also, i could be made so that, as long as your equipment is at least at 1% durability it can be repaired, but as soon as it gets to 0% it is effectivly destroyed/ruined. that way we could both have destruction of equipment or the ability to perma repair it...or something.

i personally liked the perma destruction in FF OB, and this way we could have that. also, players that hate prema loss cuold avoid it as long as they pay close attention on their equipment (and with an OS that warns you about equipment condition it would then be the players' fault if they loose their equipment due to negligence, and it would also give all players the choice of wether they want to salvage something or use it for repair parts).

That is not bad! But a lot of ppl would say that mats/creds repair will be much more comfortable. and since Ember is not post apoc setting, there no explanation why should you bother with all that scrapping while you can use Hi-Tech repair services.

Also I'd like to see no gear drops from the enemies - looting crafting mats and components should be better for overal crafting, financial and social interactions.

 

[Aphaz]

agreed but some type of loot is still gonna be there (even if minimal) and as far as hi-tech repair services, they may not be present everywhere for ur convenience, so this was just a suggestion on various types of repair. since the same weapons (even if differently specced) still have many identical parts i was just suggesting the possibility to use them this way as well...

 

[HighCaliber]

"Have you guys even considered how costly that will be for us to create, maintain and replace? Can you imagine how much time it will take to collect enough resources for that stuff?" Ofc we don't but you clearly do, right?) This game should be all about "create, maintain and replace" thing. So I don't rly see the point, why shouldn't players create, maintain and replace their gear too. Too much theme park games played - ppl just wanna stick with their beloved purple gear 4ever!

P.S. Rewards with ZERO risk is what makes modern games stale and boring.

You are taking an all or nothing stance. Like "if every single thing isn't prone to perma-break then there is no risk." That's wrong.
Look at just the idea of building bases. If the player has to worry about protecting the base they made from enemies there is already risk. If the player has to replace the base when it is destroyed then you already have a never ending need for resources. If the developers get the dial right on how expensive that is to do it will already take up a lot of player time to do this.
That's just one thing to keep up. We are told there is going to be many things to keep up. So do not act like this is a conversation about whether or not there will be risk, whether or not the economy can keep on churning. That stuff is already solved. They are non issues. This is a conversation about how you want gear to break because you like the idea of gear breaking. Like it all you want. Ask for it if you want but don't mistake what is at stake here.

Ok so "why shouldn't players create, maintain and replace their gear too."? Because Ember is a shooter first and foremost. So at the bare minimum the player should always have access to their properly tuned character for fighting.

The only purpose of gear degradation ingame is cycling, crafting stimulation and game economics functioning. Someone crafts it, someone uses it, someone loosing it - repeat. Every theme park game with eternal gear ends up with fked up market, obsolete crafting and bored ppl with loads of BiS gear having no more goals left to play.

That's right. Good thing Ember is going to have a lot of stuff for that cycling. The problems that plaque theme park games are not going to be a problem here.

 

[EvilKitten]

This is a First Person Shooter foremost, gear should never be the focus beyond determining what sort of play style you are going to have. The game needs to focus not on gear but the First Person Shooting.

 

[HighCaliber]

This is a First Person Shooter foremost, gear should never be the focus beyond determining what sort of play style you are going to have. The game needs to focus not on gear but the First Person Shooting.

This guy gets it.
If I'm playing Ark Survival I can make guns and shoot stuff. Still if i mess up so bad I'm left with nothing but rags to wear and a pointy stick to defend myself that is ok. That is a survival game. When I'm playing a "shooter first and foremost" I don't ever want to get to the point where I'm unable to enjoy the act of shooting. That isn't right for a shooter. Not every sandbox game has to follow the survival game mentality. Sandbox doesn't automatically mean survival style mechanics.

 

[Luisedgm]

That's pretty unique standpoint. If you hate repairs, gear lost on death should be your nightmare





If you're going to make a sandbox game there is huge reason for permabreak.





"Have you guys even considered how costly that will be for us to create, maintain and replace? Can you imagine how much time it will take to collect enough resources for that stuff?" Ofc we don't but you clearly do, right?) This game should be all about "create, maintain and replace" thing. So I don't rly see the point, why shouldn't players create, maintain and replace their gear too. Too much theme park games played - ppl just wanna stick with their beloved purple gear 4ever!

P.S. Rewards with ZERO risk is what makes modern games stale and boring.

You are hell bent on this and won't listen to any arguments , we get it.
But please remember: Ember is NOT Firefall, whole different game, whole different mechanics planned, no linear progression, no need to take away high end gear from players as there will be no high end gear.

 

[Krhys]

Sandbox also implies a range of things to do, like crafting and selling/buying, even if it is shooter based. As Sik San mentioned, if you are planning to have a thriving market, you need to have loads of stuff players want to buy. If gear lasts forever, the market then becomes obsolete, esp if item drops are plentiful and there is personal crafting to fill your own needs/

For players who are not interested in crafting and just want to shoot, you will need a thriving market to buy your gear from in the first place. Unless item drops are plentiful and the quality outweighs the crafted stuff, then crafting becomes obsolete. When you reach this stage, you end up with the FF we have today.

So, we can still have durability/perma break in this sandbox game we are all after, as the guy who just wants to shoot stuffz and is not interested in crafting can just buy his gear off the market by making money from pew-pew AS WELL AS selling all his crafting raw materials on the market to crafters. He can buy great, crafted gear and keep the economy alive. We also have busy crafters, fulfilling the needs of everyone after long, hard battles, where, occasionally someone's gear breaks and they have the resources to build them another bit of kit they need.

Win/win in my books. While in rl you can look after your gear indefinitely, I know from experience that you're not shooting/being shot at 24/7 like you would want to be in a shooter game, so of course rl gear won't take the damage like game gear.

 

[EvilKitten]

I am not sure where Sandbox has ever implied crafting and selling/buying. I think that while crafting should certainly be a part of Fire...er Ember, that it shouldn't at all be the focus. Crafting would mostly be for building parts and or vehicle parts. Print out some gear quickly and call it good. I honestly am not a fan of the whole market crap as it tends to be abused by gold sellers. If the gear is sidelined as a lesser focus then there honestly is not much of a need for an active marketplace anyways.

(Also do remember that this is going to be a limited dev game, so adding in features that are not part of the FPS aspect is simply taking valuable time away from the core gameplay.)

 

[NitroMidgets]

I could be wrong, been wrong before, will be wrong again, don't care if I am but I view Sandbox as meaning I am free to make my own fun. To go where ever I want. To do stupid shit if it makes me laugh. I don't want to be told I can't go to the top of a mountain by the use of invisible walls. I don't want to be expected to stay to a certain route to do anything. Don't focus on the economy at the expense of fun. No resource, time, gear or level checks.