Some thoughts about crafting/durability/items/lootz

[Ronyn]

Hello there folks.

I think it is very important to remember that Ember is a spiritual successor to Mark Kerns original vision of firefall.
While he will listen to feedback, consider our ideas, and take what he feels properly fits in, Ember will ultimately be the game he has wanted to make for over a decade. This is his singular vision. I want to stress that point: Ember is his singular vision.

During the time of firefalls development Mark made many concessions to other parts of the development team. Some of the features in the game, even during his time there, do not fit into his vision of what the game was meant to be. Let us not mistake firefall at any given timeframe as some clear expression of what he was after.

With Ember we are looking at a limited budget and a limited development team. There is no real room for heavy reworks or leadership indecision. That was very detrimental to firefalls development with that heavy budget and large team, it would be practically suicide for this smaller team and small budget.

With that in mind it would be best if we would all look to his explanations of what he is after, as opposed to what we personally might feel was most important to any version of firefall or what we personally perceive to be the meaning of a word like "Sandbox".
While there are many things still undecided about exactly how Ember will work, there are some core design goals already laid out. Many of which can be read here on the indeagogo site. Those are the core tenants. While I would never go so far as to say anything is "set in stone", I will say that those design directives are very unlikely to change. It is him describing his vision. He has every intention of following it through to completion this time. So please let us not spend time trying to get him to change his mind. Let us not argue over whether X or Y feature should be in the game when he has already stated whether or not it will be in the game.

Looking forward, I implore all of you to spend your time and energy bringing up ideas that can either refine or be added to what he has already laid out. In truth I think many of the concerns expressed in threads like these will be laid to rest once you see how the systems interact with each other. So guys, instead of trying to change his vision to match any of our particular tastes, I ask that we embrace his vision for what it is. Personally I think this vision will be pretty freaking sweet.

 

[Aphaz]

@Ronyn
i guess most people are "stuck" on this part (taken from the indiegogo link u posted)

• Build and customize your own "omniframe" suit and weapons system. Customize them to your unique needs and the role you want to fulfill.

which is why this thread is as it is

 

[EvilKitten]

@Ronyn
i guess most people are "stuck" on this part (taken from the indiegogo link u posted)

• Build and customize your own "omniframe" suit and weapons system. Customize them to your unique needs and the role you want to fulfill.

which is why this thread is as it is

And yet most people are posting with the assumption that there will be multiple (even tiers) of frames, and all different sorts of discrete weapon types. In fact there have been some knock down drag out fights about those things which in the end won't even matter since it doesn't really fit into what was posted there.

One Frame, One weapon (system), Many mods...

Seriously I have begun to feel like like I'm one of the few that actually read what Mark wrote and have a vision of the game that remotely matches up. Too many other people are hung up on the quest for epic gear.

 

[Bl4ckhunter]

How about we do this "fallout" style instead? mobs only drop the weapons and armor they're using and they do so 100% of the time, you can then dismantle that stuff for the component weapon parts ala dead space 3 and use them to customize your frame/weapon on they fly, obiviously you can also craft them but it shouldn't be the main focus of crafting.
Hardcore RPG style gear crafting and the surrounding economic system is simply incompatible with "shooter first" and "horizontal progression", there's more than enough resource sinking potential in "base building" anyways imho.

 

[Sik San]

How about we do this "fallout" style instead? mobs only drop the weapons and armor they're using and they do so 100% of the time, you can then dismantle that stuff for the component weapon parts ala dead space 3 and use them to customize your frame/weapon on they fly, obiviously you can also craft them but it shouldn't be the main focus of crafting.
Hardcore RPG style gear crafting and the surrounding economic system is simply incompatible with "shooter first" and "horizontal progression", there's more than enough resource sinking potential in "base building" anyways imho.

Despite I'm Fallout fan (The real Fallout, I mean 1 and 2 ) I have to disagree. Too much drops as for MMO where you gonna kill shit tons of mobs. It's better to have 1-2 "equipped" items drop chance aka EVE pvp drops (like 25% of the gear can be looted while the rest considered destroyed).

But on the other hand, this way we'll have the usual grindfest - I need to loot the X rifle, so I have to grind mob Y in Z area.
As I mentioned in my initial post, it's better to have completely random crafting mats/components drops only. Good for crafting, good for social interactions, no grind at the same spot over and over.

 

[Bl4ckhunter]

Despite I'm Fallout fan (The real Fallout, I mean 1 and 2 ) I have to disagree. Too much drops as for MMO where you gonna kill shit tons of mobs. It's better to have 1-2 "equipped" items drop chance aka EVE pvp drops (like 25% of the gear can be looted while the rest considered destroyed).

But on the other hand, this way we'll have the usual grindfest - I need to loot the X rifle, so I have to grind mob Y in Z area.
As I mentioned in my initial post, it's better to have completely random crafting mats/components drops only. Good for crafting, good for social interactions, no grind at the same spot over and over.

you could easily allow to salvage extra drops for mats and you don't have to loot every single grunt anyways and in my opinion there's a need to encourage people to try out different things, and with gear "crafting only" people are going to get a premade cookie cutter build and then ignore on all the rest of the content, becouse why would i bother crafting different guns when i only really need one? With my sistem at least some stuff gets into your hands anyways so you're encouraged to try new things out.
Anyways i'm prefectly ok with a "crafting only" system but i absolutely disagree with random resource drops, if a mob is to drop something it should either drop the same thing 100% of the time or never, i'm not doing biomats gatering ever again thank you very much.

 

[MattHunX]

The one thing I didnt mind about permanent equipment damage was the fact that you did everything in your power to NOT die, like, ever. The later stages of Firefall basically meant almost nothing when you died.

This!

It encourages players, even those operating bulkier, more damage-resistant frames, to not just charge into situations, throwing tactics and often any sort of skill aside. Like amateurs flailing around, just thoughtlessly unloading magazine and magazine, without having to worry about death and its consequences.

What's the point of tactics, terrain, omni-frames, combat gear customizing, if no one has to worry about consequences. The only ones being getting respawned somewhere farther back and a loss of minimal resources.

If you want to be a bullet-sponge, just dive head-first into battle, without a plan, without care, without having to concern yourself with sustaining damage and just fire your precious little blaster...then expect consequences. Your frame might not even take as much damage, depending on its archetype and you'd only need minimal amount of resources to maintain it. But, for recon types, who were always more fragile and careful and had to keep a distance or try their damndest not to get hit too much, when engaging a target from closer, damage to the frame was always an incentive for approaching a situation with more care.

Having durability (that could easily be kept up, as in FF. A few crystites, really? That's too much for some?) would add another layer to operating in the world Ember. To combat, survival, tactics. If one gets seriously banged up and continues to run around looking for trouble, without running a little maintenance, first (even cheap carried repair kits could enter here), then they should be punished for their foolishness and take increasingly more damage.

It was a good idea in Firefall and it's not in any way annoying or an inconvenience, unless someone is too lazy to be bothered with actually making an effort to do more than run and gun without thought or care.

 

[Bl4ckhunter]

Having durability (that could easily be kept up, as in FF. A few crystites, really? That's too much for some?) would add another layer to operating in the world Ember. To combat, survival, tactics. If one gets seriously banged up and continues to run around looking for trouble, without running a little maintenance, first (even cheap carried repair kits could enter here), then they should be punished for their foolishness and take increasingly more damage.
It was a good idea in Firefall and it's not in any way annoying or an inconvenience, unless someone is too lazy to be bothered with actually making an effort to do more than run and gun without thought or care.

That's not the point most people are arguing about, at some point in history firefall had gear perma-break which was eventually removed as it was broadly disliked but some people want it back becouse it allows for "crafter" playstile by creating a constant need for new items as opposed to everyone being able to get what they want and be done with it, a penaity of sorts on death it's kind of a given in most games and no one will argue with that.

 

[MattHunX]

That's not the point most people are arguing about, at some point in history firefall had gear perma-break which was eventually removed as it was broadly disliked but some people want it back becouse it allows for "crafter" playstile by creating a constant need for new items as opposed to everyone being able to get what they want and be done with it, a penaity of sorts on death it's kind of a given in most games and no one will argue with that.

Well perma-death for items is annoying. You should be able to repair broken equipment, then. Just have durability, still. With no perma-broke equipment.

 

[Ronyn]

This!

It encourages players, even those operating bulkier, more damage-resistant frames, to not just charge into situations, throwing tactics and often any sort of skill aside. Like amateurs flailing around, just thoughtlessly unloading magazine and magazine, without having to worry about death and its consequences.

What's the point of tactics, terrain, omni-frames, combat gear customizing, if no one has to worry about consequences. The only ones being getting respawned somewhere farther back and a loss of minimal resources.

If you want to be a bullet-sponge, just dive head-first into battle, without a plan, without care, without having to concern yourself with sustaining damage and just fire your precious little blaster...then expect consequences. Your frame might not even take as much damage, depending on its archetype and you'd only need minimal amount of resources to maintain it. But, for recon types, who were always more fragile and careful and had to keep a distance or try their damndest not to get hit too much, when engaging a target from closer, damage to the frame was always an incentive for approaching a situation with more care.

Having durability (that could easily be kept up, as in FF. A few crystites, really? That's too much for some?) would add another layer to operating in the world Ember. To combat, survival, tactics. If one gets seriously banged up and continues to run around looking for trouble, without running a little maintenance, first (even cheap carried repair kits could enter here), then they should be punished for their foolishness and take increasingly more damage.

It was a good idea in Firefall and it's not in any way annoying or an inconvenience, unless someone is too lazy to be bothered with actually making an effort to do more than run and gun without thought or care.

Well perma-death for items is annoying. You should be able to repair broken equipment, then. Just have durability, still. With no perma-broke equipment.

Marks words from the indeagogo campaign page regarding this issue are-
"

• Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make).

"
As you can see it is already in the plan. Let me add that from a mathematical perspective, depending on exactly how that mechanic works, (does cost go higher based on hits taken and death? What is the cost to gain ratio set at?) the repair cost could potentially be very punishing to the income of a reckless player.

 

[MattHunX]

Marks words from the indeagogo campaign page regarding this issue are-
"

• Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make).

"
As you can see it is already in the plan. Let me add that from a mathematical perspective, depending on exactly how that mechanic works, (does cost go higher based on hits taken and death? What is the cost to gain ratio set at?) the repair cost could potentially be very punishing to the income of a reckless player.

Exactly how it should be! Thank you!

VERY nice!

 

[Daynen]

As the core tenets are set down already, I doubt we'll steer the game off-course by our discussion, but I think I can summarize the benefits of perma-break gear (in a vacuum, not in the context of any one game) thusly:

First, it rewards good play by making gear last longer if you get hit and die less; this punishes bad play and encourages players to learn the game and enjoy it at a higher level of play. There's no excuse for: "I just wanna run in and kill everything! Why do I die?! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!" None. Not one single excuse is acceptable for this sort of behavior.

Second, as mentioned, it gives crafters, indeed all players, something to always look forward to and plan for: the acquisition of rewards. Those who've said it are right: once you have all the best in slot gear, there's little reason to pursue anything of any real merit anymore. You're done with the game and everything you do is just an exercise in denial.

Third, it gives you a real choice to make before you set out to take on your next challenge. Having your favorite gear is awesome, but taking good care of it is better; do you really NEED your custom single to do this next thing? Or would a standard-issue work for what's probably a routine task? Picture any game: a shooter, melee, or action game if you like; it doesn't matter what it is. Preparing for a challenge is part of overcoming it. Denying that fact invalidates the point of equipment and consumables in it's entirety.

The negatives to all these points are obvious, but those who argue against it can pretty much be lumped into one counter-argument: "People don't want to have to X; they just want to Y, because this is a Y game." In the worst case, it becomes "I don't wanna play; I just wanna win." People want to ignore parts of the game for whatever reason--even parts of the game that MAKE IT WORK; this leads to them marginalizing and even ignoring entire chunks of the world, which leads to the ghost towns, junk loot, planned obsolescence and mindless repetition of mundane, bland game content and stereotypical player roles. It's also what leads to players folding their arms and pouting every time an actual challenge comes their way. Seeing players having their cake and eating it too is what's led some of us older gamers to see the younger crowd as so spoiled and entitled that they couldn't possibly survive in the 16-bit era, much less the 8-bit one. It's cynical, I know, but it's not imagined; we all brought it on ourselves by the very behavior I describe.

Seriously, though: Take a random teen today and sit them down with a random NES game. Odds are REALLY good that they'll either drop the controller in an hour or pull up youtube and follow a video walkthrough step by step, thinking they're so smart. It's funny to watch, but sad at the same time.

I digress: I think Mark's learned a thing or two by now: he has to have seen the story unfold a hundred times already. Ember is set to do better than it's 'protoype,' so let's sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[Sik San]

I digress: I think Mark's learned a thing or two by now: he has to have seen the story unfold a hundred times already. Ember is set to do better than it's 'protoype,' so let's sit back and enjoy the show.

Well, Ember some kind of FAQ says:

• Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make).

And that's why I started this thread - to initiate a brainstorm regarding this issue that could draw Mark's attention and, possibly, make him change his mind regarding that aspect. It turned pretty hot and interesting discussion 6 pages long by far, but Mark isn't here. 2 bad.

 

[Daynen]

Well, Ember some kind of FAQ says:

• Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make).

And that's why I started this thread - to initiate a brainstorm regarding this issue that could draw Mark's attention and, possibly, make him change his mind regarding that aspect. It turned pretty hot and interesting discussion 6 pages long by far, but Mark isn't here. 2 bad.

Keep in mind, it's very unlikely we'll change his mind, because as posted earlier in the same description, uncertain leadership was part of the problem with FF. Sounds to me like he's ready to put his foot down and deliver.

That said, I can see a few ways we'd find a happy medium which asks responsibility and preparation of its players without ever leaving them unable to enjoy the game on a basic level. Repairing parts that wear out and underperform, limited and specific ammo types, structure upkeeps...there are ways to get the BENEFITS that permabreak brought to the game without actually shutting people out of the core gameplay; I think that's the real design goal here and would be happy to see it achieved in a copacetic manner.

 

[Bl4ckhunter]

First, it rewards good play by making gear last longer if you get hit and die less; this punishes bad play and encourages players to learn the game and enjoy it at a higher level of play. There's no excuse for: "I just wanna run in and kill everything! Why do I die?! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!" None. Not one single excuse is acceptable for this sort of behavior.

death penalities will obiviously be implemented anyways so i don't see how this matters at all

Second, as mentioned, it gives crafters, indeed all players, something to always look forward to and plan for: the acquisition of rewards. Those who've said it are right: once you have all the best in slot gear, there's little reason to pursue anything of any real merit anymore. You're done with the game and everything you do is just an exercise in denial.

If the planned aim of the game is "the quest for unreachable ever increasing epic gear" Mark can pack his stuff and shut this forum in this very moment as far as i'm concerned, the aim of the game shouldn't be chasing after gear, we've had enough of that thank you very much, people should play activities in the game becouse it's fun not becouse of "legendary rewards", i sincerely doubt anyone finds spending hours with cheatsheets finding the right materials for crafting and the right moment to buy it off the market fun, crafting it's not gameplay, is a secondary mechanic and should be funtional to gameplay, and it should never be the other way around, the fact that you've to rely on epic gear to keep players playing is a complete failure in itself.
Besides best in slot should be avoided anyways, there shouldn't be best in slot gear period, specially in a game with horizontal progression, if there are it's just failure to balance the gear by the devs.

Third, it gives you a real choice to make before you set out to take on your next challenge. Having your favorite gear is awesome, but taking good care of it is better; do you really NEED your custom single to do this next thing? Or would a standard-issue work for what's probably a routine task? Picture any game: a shooter, melee, or action game if you like; it doesn't matter what it is. Preparing for a challenge is part of overcoming it. Denying that fact invalidates the point of equipment and consumables in it's entirety.

On the other hand it becomes a why bother gearing situation, it was a problem also in "durability" firefall, specially with horizontal progression why would i even give a crap about more expansive options when i can just stock up with cheap versions and do just as well? they only pieces that were sought for are those that break the game, why would i even give a damn about the rest if it's just marginally better/not better at all? This game should be around horizontal progression, hence you can't have things like "best in slot" or "better" gear in any way so you just end up punishing players for playing, that's not fine imho


TL,DR
gear chasing, meta crafting and item selling aren't gameplay, they're just secondary mechanics, they should work, they should be balanced, but they shouldn't be the focus and get in the way of players having fun, gear perma-break is putting the focus on economy rather than on actual gameplay so i say no to it.

 

[Daynen]

death penalities will obiviously be implemented anyways so i don't see how this matters at all


If the planned aim of the game is "the quest for unreachable ever increasing epic gear" Mark can pack his stuff and shut this forum in this very moment as far as i'm concerned, the aim of the game shouldn't be chasing after gear, we've had enough of that thank you very much, people should play activities in the game becouse it's fun not becouse of "legendary rewards", i sincerely doubt anyone finds spending hours with cheatsheets finding the right materials for crafting and the right moment to buy it off the market fun, crafting it's not gameplay, is a secondary mechanic and should be funtional to gameplay, and it should never be the other way around, the fact that you've to rely on epic gear to keep players playing is a complete failure in itself.
Besides best in slot should be avoided anyways, there shouldn't be best in slot gear period, specially in a game with horizontal progression, if there are it's just failure to balance the gear by the devs.


On the other hand it becomes a why bother gearing situation, it was a problem also in "durability" firefall, specially with horizontal progression why would i even give a crap about more expansive options when i can just stock up with cheap versions and do just as well? they only pieces that were sought for are those that break the game, why would i even give a damn about the rest if it's just marginally better/not better at all? This game should be around horizontal progression, hence you can't have things like "best in slot" or "better" gear in any way so you just end up punishing players for playing, that's not fine imho


TL,DR
gear chasing, meta crafting and item selling aren't gameplay, they're just secondary mechanics, they should work, they should be balanced, but they shouldn't be the focus and get in the way of players having fun, gear perma-break is putting the focus on economy rather than on actual gameplay so i say no to it.

did you miss the parenthesis? Here, lemme light it up for you a bit:

(IN A VACUUM; NOT IN THE CONTEXT OF ANY ONE GAME)

My point in that post was to describe, in and of itself, the benefits of permanent gear breakage TO A GAME. ANY GAME. I was not trying to ask for it in Ember; I was highlighting important points of the argument and the reason they mattered. Read more closely and take a few minutes to think before posting, please. Also, your TLDR perfectly demonstrates one of my points. Read again to find out which one.

 

[Sik San]

TL,DR
gear chasing, meta crafting and item selling aren't gameplay, they're just secondary mechanics, they should work, they should be balanced, but they shouldn't be the focus and get in the way of players having fun, gear perma-break is putting the focus on economy rather than on actual gameplay so i say no to it.

That's pretty narrow minded I'd say. Actual gameplay is everything you do in the game, lol.

 

[Bl4ckhunter]

did you miss the parenthesis? Here, lemme light it up for you a bit:

(IN A VACUUM; NOT IN THE CONTEXT OF ANY ONE GAME)

My point in that post was to describe, in and of itself, the benefits of permanent gear breakage TO A GAME. ANY GAME. I was not trying to ask for it in Ember; I was highlighting important points of the argument and the reason they mattered. Read more closely and take a few minutes to think before posting, please. Also, your TLDR perfectly demonstrates one of my points. Read again to find out which one.

I admittedly did miss that and i do apologize but what is the point of a discussion "in vacuum" ? the point of discussing something is invariably to prove a point, while i did use firefall and ember as examples what i said easily applies to most games as gear-break only makes sense in a "combat" game, but if the game is a "combat" game you shouldn't need additional mechanics to make it work, alternatively you have a survival style game but then total gear destruction/full item drop is better suitable, gear perma-break based on durability it's the hybrid child that pleases no one.

That's pretty narrow minded I'd say. Actual gameplay is everything you do in the game, lol.

there are principal parts and ancillary parts, if the game is a shooter you don't gut the shooting part to make a "minigame" work, doesn't mean that the minigame shouldn't be enjoiable, just that it shouldn't force compromises on the main gameplay

 

[Ronyn]

Keep in mind, it's very unlikely we'll change his mind, because as posted earlier in the same description, uncertain leadership was part of the problem with FF. Sounds to me like he's ready to put his foot down and deliver.

That said, I can see a few ways we'd find a happy medium which asks responsibility and preparation of its players without ever leaving them unable to enjoy the game on a basic level. Repairing parts that wear out and underperform, limited and specific ammo types, structure upkeeps...there are ways to get the BENEFITS that permabreak brought to the game without actually shutting people out of the core gameplay; I think that's the real design goal here and would be happy to see it achieved in a copacetic manner.

Yes, you understand. We can talk about the positives and negatives of a perma-break gear in a vacuum for academic purposes, but the full truth is how everything works in concert together. In the case of Ember, the benefits of a perma-break system exist in the combination of having both things that do break and things that need repair.

Perma-break discussion aside:
@Daynen "People don't want to have to X; they just want to Y, because this is a Y game." and "I don't wanna play; I just wanna win." are very separate issues.

That is the difference between the reasonable basis in which people choose a game to play (a game that has the feature sets/mechanics/gameplay style they enjoy) which is largely a matter of genre..... and how when some gamers avoid challenging games (which can be found just as easily in games that have the feature sets/mechanics/gameplay style they enjoy) that can be done with any genre.

 

[Daynen]

Yes, you understand. We can talk about the positives and negatives of a perma-break gear in a vacuum for academic purposes, but the full truth is how everything works in concert together. In the case of Ember, the benefits of a perma-break system exist in the combination of having both things that do break and things that need repair.

Perma-break discussion aside:
@Daynen "People don't want to have to X; they just want to Y, because this is a Y game." and "I don't wanna play; I just wanna win." are very separate issues.

That is the difference between the reasonable basis in which people choose a game to play (a game that has the feature sets/mechanics/gameplay style they enjoy) which is largely a matter of genre..... and how when some gamers avoid challenging games (which can be found just as easily in games that have the feature sets/mechanics/gameplay style they enjoy) that can be done with any genre.

You're absolutely right: the difference between finding the game you like and trying to avoid the challenges are two different issues, one with real merit and one just a show of immaturity--yet I've witnessed both countless times, sometimes even from the same person, but very often in the same game. the failure to distinguish between the two, in my opinion, has led many an otherwise promising game to it's downfall.

As for Bl4ckhunter, you're not wrong; distilling the true essence of the game is important and removing unnecessary components can often make a better game. Having said that, riddle me this: isn't the goal of a shooter game to be the one who survives the battle?

In a larger context, the need to maintain things is a part of life and a motivator for many. While it may seem silly to include it in a game where shooting things is the 'core gameplay,' I still posit that we do ourselves a disservice by not trying to tie two kinds of gameplay together into a more rewarding whole while also creating a world that is more alive and memorable for having such things. We already have a plethora of games where we 'just shoot things;' frankly, guns and jetpacks simply aren't new and exciting anymore. Ember, and indeed any game in the works, can stand to be more than that. The core gameplay of a shooter doesn't HAVE to be JUST shooting; it really can be more. There's no need to keep using such limited vision when we have so many possibilities available for something grander.