Some thoughts about crafting/durability/items/lootz

[DropnLock]

The one thing I didnt mind about permanent equipment damage was the fact that you did everything in your power to NOT die, like, ever. The later stages of Firefall basically meant almost nothing when you died.

I guess I have a soft spot for death meaning something as I started my online gaming with Everquest back when Luclin launched and dying back then, in that game often meant contacting your friends/guild to help you recover your possessions which very much gave a sense of urgency to surviving and/or networking.

Agreed. When I first started FF with item decay, it made me appreciate MORE the need for Survival and duck n cover since if I did not take care of myself I would spend ALOT of time crafting new gear for myself.

If I remember correctly, didnt the Epic gear have no item decay? I remember my Purpes not decaying when I died which made it all the more necessary to craft those items and get the mats needed to craft them. Blues can come and go but the Prupes remained until you got a better one. That is the system I would like to see again.

Item decay gave you a REASON to survive not just die run back and do it again. Although I do like Cadbane's approach as well. Crating repair parts for your weapon could work as well. Still gives need for Crafting and allows for you to keep your weapon, unless you go careless and let it get broken

 

[TankHunter678]

I've always been against the "siege" type destructible bases. Look at the attached map of Neocron. There are mines, uplinks, fortresses, factories, and labs to fight over. Now building turrets to place in places like this would be great.

To your class point, Id bet money that this game will have classes. You will be "something". You had classes in Firefall. If you do a skill point based system and you skill into the "mammoth frame", you are a mammoth at that point. There are ALWAYS classes in any MMO that has ever came out. You can call them classes, professions, expertise... whatever you like. They still exist just like leveling does.

"Classes" in this case would be player assigned designations to "builds" but not be "classes" in the classic MMO sense.

Just like in Path of Exile there are no "classes" there are "builds". Witch is not a class, it is a starting position on the passive skill tree. Ranger is not a class, it is a starting position on the passive skill tree. Marauder, Templar, Duelist, Shadow, Scion, all are just starting positions on the passive skill tree.

Same here, a single highly modular frame. From which a multitude of possible builds spring forth.

I feel bad for you guys that are uneducated in terms of what real crafting in an MMO can be like. WoW's crafting is a joke compared to REAL crafting. Firefall tried to rip off SWG's crafting but implemented it piss poor.

Go to 4:35 in the below link

Will kinda show you exactly what a real crafting system looks like and this is just basic things. This doesn't even get into experiementing and making items stronger.

I feel bad that you think the only crafting system that people have experienced is WoW style crafting.

But that does not refute the point that crafting classes are not needed. Nor does it refute the point that gathering classes are not needed.

This is because crafting and gathering is a core part of the game. Available to everyone, gets used by everyone, and is completely independent from anything that falls under a "class" or "profession" designation.

It is you who needs to look beyond "crafting as a class" or "crafting as a profession".

Because why should players have to equip a set of omniframe parts to be able to use a molecular printer? Why should players be locked out of one of the core game systems because they did not pick up a "profession"?

 

[Skyewauker]

"Classes" in this case would be player assigned designations to "builds" but not be "classes" in the classic MMO sense.

Just like in Path of Exile there are no "classes" there are "builds". Witch is not a class, it is a starting position on the passive skill tree. Ranger is not a class, it is a starting position on the passive skill tree. Marauder, Templar, Duelist, Shadow, Scion, all are just starting positions on the passive skill tree.

Same here, a single highly modular frame. From which a multitude of possible builds spring forth.


I feel bad that you think the only crafting system that people have experienced is WoW style crafting.

But that does not refute the point that crafting classes are not needed. Nor does it refute the point that gathering classes are not needed.

This is because crafting and gathering is a core part of the game. Available to everyone, gets used by everyone, and is completely independent from anything that falls under a "class" or "profession" designation.

It is you who needs to look beyond "crafting as a class" or "crafting as a profession".

Because why should players have to equip a set of omniframe parts to be able to use a molecular printer? Why should players be locked out of one of the core game systems because they did not pick up a "profession"?

Like I said, its all null and void because Ember wont be a sandbox, not a true one anyway so you wont have to worry about it if this game actually gets made.

To your question about being locked out. Its called specializing. In WoW you cant be a paladin and warlock. You have to choose. With a system like SWGs, you can go Bounty Hunter and some crafting, but you will never equal a person who went Master Weaponsmith AND Master Artisan with a little rifle in marksmen to help kill things that might agro him while harvesting. Nor should he.

WoW type "everyone experiences everything" MMOS / systems is why the MMO genre is a joke now.

 

[TankHunter678]

Like I said, its all null and void because Ember wont be a sandbox, not a true one anyway so you wont have to worry about it if this game actually gets made.

To your question about being locked out. Its called specializing. In WoW you cant be a paladin and warlock. You have to choose. With a system like SWGs, you can go Bounty Hunter and some crafting, but you will never equal a person who went Master Weaponsmith AND Master Artisan with a little rifle in marksmen to help kill things that might agro him while harvesting. Nor should he.

WoW type "everyone experiences everything" MMOS / systems is why the MMO genre is a joke now.

Honestly... your view sounds a lot closer to WoW then mine. Crafting? Its a class. Gathering? Its a class. Combat? Split up into a bunch of classes, designed around the holy trinity.

Whereas I am advocating no classes, constraint system, massive customization. No restrictions on crafting, no restrictions on gathering.

And you saying Ember wont be a sandbox when that is the stated direction by Mark Kern? Seriously?

I really think you need to get out of that WoW clone class this profession that mindset.

Also, WoW type is not "everyone experiences everything" because naturally as you said yourself: you cannot be a paladin and a warlock at the same time. Nor can you be an Engineer, Blacksmith, Armorer, Leatherworker, Alchemist, Herbalist, Miner, Fisherman all at once profession wise.

What WoW did was take from a bunch of the MMOs existing at the time and blend the features together in the Warcraft universe.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Droping items could be limited to "warzones" or contested areas, this way the players know they are entering a risky area

Then I will never enter those zones, because I want to enjoy the game and not be punished (or even worse hunted by group of players who have fun killing newbie players or alone players or weak players just for their fun ....)

 

[OziriusSVK]

Just like in Path of Exile there are no "classes" there are "builds". Witch is not a class, it is a starting position on the passive skill tree. Ranger is not a class, it is a starting position on the passive skill tree. Marauder, Templar, Duelist, Shadow, Scion, all are just starting positions on the passive skill tree.

It is hidden class, but still a class. Only in higher level you can move to different part of passive tree and make hybrid or just focus on your starting part of tree.

 

[OziriusSVK]

To your question about being locked out. Its called specializing. In WoW you cant be a paladin and warlock. You have to choose. With a system like SWGs, you can go Bounty Hunter and some crafting, but you will never equal a person who went Master Weaponsmith AND Master Artisan with a little rifle in marksmen to help kill things that might agro him while harvesting. Nor should he.

WoW type "everyone experiences everything" MMOS / systems is why the MMO genre is a joke now.

I am confused, in WoW type you have specializations. And I dont see a problem if in sci-fi universe you can craft everything without specialization, you no more use your hands to craft a thing, you have probably ONE 3D software to create blueprints and ONE huge 3D printer to craft it all

This is just my opinion, feel free to discuss

 

[Skyewauker]

I am confused, in WoW type you have specializations. And I dont see a problem if in sci-fi universe you can craft everything without specialization, you no more use your hands to craft a thing, you have probably ONE 3D software to create blueprints and ONE huge 3D printer to craft it all

This is just my opinion, feel free to discuss

WoW type crafting is as dumb as you get. No thought process. Its cookie cutter, rolled out of a car factory type crafting, without the ability to customize. Its shit.

There is a reason that the MMO industry has been on the decline in terms of qualitty. All you have now are F2P games at every turn being churned out with the same dumbed down systems.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Hello again, this will be a little longer post about durability, decay system/permanently broken weapons, pervasive economy, etc.:

I think main reason for durability and decay system is necessary resource sink. It can be done in three main ways:

A: Constantly releasing new content with better items (WoW types):

+ Short-lived enjoy of new items
- A lot a really lots of negative things: Old gear and resources are meaningless, old areas are "ghost towns", ...​

B: Decay system with durability and permanent loss of broken items:

+ Pervasive and healthy economy, ...
- It is hard to find "that" balance between time for gathering resources for gear and time for playing game with decaying gear, so you wont end up always gathering resources for that new gear
- Fear of loss of gear, ...​

C: Focusing on lots of consumable items for gear (not gear itself) and gameplay (different types of ammo, power sources, destructable gathering mechs="Thumpers", deployable flames, mines, drones, etc.), things that are consumed during gameplay:

+ No fear of loss
+ Pervasive economy
- These consumable items must be set as optional not necessity for gameplay, but essential for tactical gameplay​

Option B can be adjusted for example like this:

Every item have base durability pool and integrity 100%, for example 10 000 durability points.
Upon death you loose 100 durability point and 10% integrity and you should repair item for some small amount (this should include game currency and types of resources used in crafting), so your item will have again 100% integrity (if you reach 0% integrity item is broken and cannot be used until you repair it again, and if your item don´t have 100% integrity it will have some small debuff: reduced rate of fire, movement speed, reduced maximum speed, etc. at maximum of 50% debuff when integrity is near 0% ).
When you reach 0 durability points, item is not destroyed, but durability points go to negative numbers and also repairing to 100% integrity will start to exponencially increase (don´t forget it cost game currency and resources used in crafing), for example till -200 durability points repairing cost 200%, then till -500 durability points cost increase 500%, then till -1000 durability points 1 000% cost increase of repair, and so on.
So it will become for player more efficient to craft new gear , because old gear cost huge amount of resources to maintain, and it is better to dismantle it to basic resources if possible. And you dont get scenario that your old gear permanently break and right now you dont have enough resources to build new/ or you dont have gear to replace it right now in the middle of dungeon/boss battle/ waiting for new gear to be crafted, etc.
Repairing cost should be probably set that when you deplete durability pool it should cost overall 200% of resources used in craft that gear (not included game currency). Using item in combat (using like really using not be just in combat and hiding behind rock...) will also cost small amounts of durability points, for example: 1 durability point on weapon for 1 emptied magazine (not reload ), 1 durability point for running 100 meters (this should count distance probably only few seconds after you take dmg, this don´t punish skilled players who are good in dodging attacks and playing always on the move), 10 durabity point for using an ability (depends on ability cooldown), 10 durability points for all gear for overall dmg taken equal 100% of health pool (damage taken by any kind of shield doesn´t count) and so on (keep in mind only in combat and only if you are using that item or taking dmg).
Numbers used in this example are just example not generated from some statistic data .
Some would ask why only in combat? We are running around the world always. My answer: It would just irritate players that they are losing durability when they just exploring world or just running around and enjoying landscape, and so on.

This way you get pervasive economy , resources sink (depends on how long you will be repairing old gear) and "permanent" item destrution in "soft" way. And no irritation from sudden item loss and you dont need to always worry and calculate how long this item will last.

I personaly prefer option C, or adjusted B but in both option I would like to have lots of consumables (at least different types of ammo).

This is only idea (not all mine), feel free to discuss

 

[OziriusSVK]

WoW type crafting is as dumb as you get. No thought process. Its cookie cutter, rolled out of a car factory type crafting, without the ability to customize. Its shit.

There is a reason that the MMO industry has been on the decline in terms of qualitty. All you have now are F2P games at every turn being churned out with the same dumbed down systems.

Now I understand and absolutely agree with you on this point.

 

[EvilKitten]

Ya'll can hate me but I miss Vanguard crafting, one armor recipe and depending on what materials you used could turn into any of dozens of unique items, all with wildly different stats. Plus the fact that you actually participated in the process and there was an entire sphere devoted to it in the game that was almost as important as fighting mobs.

 

[NitroMidgets]

Warframe handled the resource sink thing in a simple and straight forward manner without having decay.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Warframe handled the resource sink thing in a simple and straight forward manner without having decay.

Hi, can you please specify it, or add link? Thank you

 

[TankHunter678]

Hi, can you please specify it, or add link? Thank you

Clan weapons and Clan Dojo expansion, the more members in the clan the more resources were consumed for a given research.

They also eventually put in resources that decay over time and vanish on you, but those are annoying as all hell.

 

[NitroMidgets]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Foundry
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Resources
They were capable of adding new frames, weapons and other things in a relatively fast manner however. It allowed the player to decide where to put the emphasis when searching.

Oh and somebody already mentioned the clan based item and building.

 

[OziriusSVK]

So Warframe have these resource sinks? :

1. Some resources, which quantity decrease over time in your inventory
2. Releasing new content (so more things to spend resources)
3. Spending your resources for upgrades of Clan ("Army/guild")

I have few question:
Does Warframe have durability? And are ordinary resources used in endgame content? New released weapons and gear are stronger than old ones? How steep is power curve (how stronger are endgame weapon compared to starting weapon)?

 

[NitroMidgets]

Nope, no durability.
No weapon was to make past weapons pointless. They worked hard to keep things balanced.
Prime versions of frames, they were slightly better variants but by the time each came out we already had the previous version for more then a year.

The end game didn't require Prime versions of characters, prime weapons or any of that. The harder missions just required more team work to complete.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Nope, no durability.
No weapon was to make past weapons pointless. They worked hard to keep things balanced.
Prime versions of frames, they were slightly better variants but by the time each came out we already had the previous version for more then a year.

The end game didn't require Prime versions of characters, prime weapons or any of that. The harder missions just required more team work to complete.

Thanks for answer. So Warframe go for way with lots of horizontal progression

 

[Excess]

I can go either way with durability. I never had a problem replacing my equipment in firefall at any point in the game.

If this game has resource gathering(for crafting) as a main activity, then I think a durability/breakage mechanic will be needed to keep the economy from getting out of hand. The option to fully repair an item through currency could be in place for those unable or unwilling to craft a replacement item. Those who like to gather and craft have their option and resources get taken out of the economy. People who rather not, pay currency and that gets taken out of the economy.

There are a great many assumptions in my thought process though. I am a big fan of crafting, gathering, and economies.

 

[Krhys]

You honestly cannot have a crafter driven economy without durability. They go hand in hand. Without durability, crafters are just irrelevant. Firefall implemented it horribly. SWG did it perfectly. If you don't do perma durability, you might as well copy / .paste the WoW typical crafting system and call it a day.

To Cadbane, with a crafter driven economy, you aren't supposed to be the jack of all trades. You arent supposed to be 1 class and craft the best gear, fight the best, travel the best, etc.

Crafters need to be a stand alone class. You really need to go play the swg emu. You would understand then.

I'll admit I was quite dismayed when durability was introduced but after a short time realised it was not that bad. It is definitely (IMO) a necessary mechanic to keep crafters in business. I think back in beta when your gun or module did break completely it functioned like a stock model, so at least you weren't totally without something to defend yourself with 'when it finally broke'.

I don't agree on the specialisation bit though, this was implemented at one point in FF to dire consequences. I feel to get the most out of a game I may end of paying money for, I would like to experience all aspects.