Should crafting resources be the currency we use?

[MattHunX]

One of the things that is a major annoyance in FF that's also completely unfair is how they restrict the player from gaining in-game currency. As far as I can tell (after being back for a few weeks, now) a 1000 credits per/day is still the limit on how much Crystite one can convert. And since most of the items, cosmetics, reusables...etc. are either not even available, anymore (only rental) or they're only present on the market and not in the RedBean Store, it is extremely frustrating and limiting that one can only gain a 1000 credits per day, even if they have the necessary amount of Crystite to exchange for more.

Sure, I can place a buy order for a number of Red Beans, get it subtracted from my credits and have the beans mailed to me, almost instantly, but suppose I want a cosmetic kit or a reusable item that is no longer available in the store, only on the market. And that, because they have removed those to replace them with rentals (so people can keep paying for them, when they've already payed enough for the stuff they had, which they won't even have if they start a separate character on the SAME account), collecting e.g.: just 20+ thousand credits for an item, takes LONG and if one already has enough Crystite to convert to credits, then they should be allowed to. They shouldn't be forced to slug around, getting only a 1000creds/day, because it is simply no fun. I'm quite surprised that more people aren't frustrated with such a system. The credits are there. The economy is going. Why make it needlessly more time-consuming for someone to contribute to that economy with such limitations? It only works against them, doesn't it?

Ember should definitely break from this. If one has the resources to convert to currency, LET THEM. Meanwhile, those players who pay actual money (pay-2-win, even), will still hold the advantage and the company still benefits from them, anyway. Why make others slave away for weeks and months, when they can pay the price, even if only with in-game resources.

 

[TankHunter678]

That limit was put in place to help combat inflation by artificially restricting how much money could be in the market. It also allowed them to more easily control the credit:RB conversion prices. Further the ability to buy credits from other players with RB caused more people to buy RB. Since it allowed them to more quickly get what they wanted.

Effectively the marketplace was turned into yet another monetization method that also helped to combat classic MMO inflation problems.

 

[MattHunX]

That limit was put in place to help combat inflation by artificially restricting how much money could be in the market. It also allowed them to more easily control the credit:RB conversion prices. Further the ability to buy credits from other players with RB caused more people to buy RB. Since it allowed them to more quickly get what they wanted.

Effectively the marketplace was turned into yet another monetization method that also helped to combat classic MMO inflation problems.

And yet, it still took weeks if not months to get the necessary credits, especially for new players, who weren't familiar with the system. And when some players started listing items and such on the market for cheaper prices than what was in the store, they were not only helping each other, but were practically giving an "f u" to the currency exchange system, by effectively circumventing its restrictions. The system may have benefits that also make it more stable, but it is frustrating for the player. It's not a good trade-off.

 

[Col. Kernel]

So having a vendor exchange them at a variable exchange rate would be better?

Edit:
Nevermind, I see what you're getting at. No, it's not 3 separate currencies. To the vendor it's one currency in 3 denominations, Rare/Uncommon/Common.

Unless you're saying you consider a $10 bill, a $5 bill, and a $1 bill to be 3 different currencies. They're not, they're all the Dollar, just different values.

If the only gear going on the market is from crafting people would likely undercut the manipulators and the manipulation would end up just costing them. Flipping something sold undervalue isn't necessarily a bad thing, someone desperate to sell at a low price is fine in a market.

Really not sure what this is getting towards, done bumping this thread. I'm for a single currency.

Manipulators and flippers turn the market from a useful tool for everyone to a financial PvP playground. I've played in those, I can compete, I just prefer not to.

And what I'm getting towards is a different kind of economy. I've likened what our characters will do to gold rush miners, only we'll be dealing with a lot more than just gold. But this type of economy will favor the crafters, keep inflation in check, hinder market manipulation, and drain unneeded resources out of the economy at the admitted cost of being slightly more complex. What's not to like?

@Grummz is already doing something very different with horizontal progression rather than vertical, why not try a different type of economy as well?

Edit2: Grammar

 

[TankHunter678]

And yet, it still took weeks if not months to get the necessary credits, especially for new players, who weren't familiar with the system. And when some players started listing items and such on the market for cheaper prices than what was in the store, they were not only helping each other, but were practically giving an "f u" to the currency exchange system, by effectively circumventing its restrictions. The system may have benefits that also make it more stable, but it is frustrating for the player. It's not a good trade-off.

What part of "turning the player market into a monetization system" did you not understand?

It had to be frustrating, it also had to combat known MMO problems, it also had to keep Red Bean prices within reach of the common gamer to proliferate and get maximum profit. That is the very essence of a F2P MMO market.

Its going to be a lot different here. Here they are not trying to monetize the market, but we still need ways to help prevent the classic MMO market problems.

Which as far as I've seen, in every single currency MMO inflation just grows and grows and grows because no amount of money sinks can keep it down. People get too efficient with their grinding and the system throws out infinite money.

Which becomes frustrating for new players, and players without much time, because what was 100 gold yesterday is 1000 gold next week is 10000 gold next year. While the stuff they have access to for farming is so worthless they have to play like a chinese gold farmer bot to make money to afford things on the market.

Crafting and Gathering is going to be core for this game, which is why a barter economy would be better for combating the classic MMO economy problems then a single currency economy. Because the "currency" gets burned up in sinks the player is guaranteed to use because of what they get out of it. Any "currency" that enters the system, rapidly exits the system and is destroyed.

 

[Col. Kernel]

FWIW I've tagged Mark Kern for this thread. I'd really love to hear his feedback, though he's probably nowhere near considering the economy yet.

 

[TGVirus]

That's the entire point of what I said about when a new player comes into the game, THEN (and only then) add a fixed amount to the economy. Give it to the NPCs, which will cause prices to raise slightly, resulting in more people selling material to NPCs to gain credits.

Keeping track of an economical system is hard. We are not able to do this even IRL. But you could create a system that balances the resource-to-items conversion. Remember the Uranium rush?

 

[TGVirus]

If Ember uses Credits. That's it. No need to worry about currecy X for area A and currency Y for area B and then worse currency Z for area C.

yes, but putting only one (universal) currency is bad because it invites a lot of RMTs. Surely those can be quite successfully managed, but inviting them even for a little while will decrease the quality of the community.

 

[grzesiek]

personally i'd love credits to stay - its a currency used by loads of writers, kinda standard monetary system of sf, plus it gives the base value of things from services to resources. as for resources and its exchange i don't see why we couldn't have some exchange market just for the resources plus symbolic fee in credits covering delivery.

 

[Col. Kernel]

yes, but putting only one (universal) currency is bad because it invites a lot of RMTs. Surely those can be quite successfully managed, but inviting them even for a little while will decrease the quality of the community.

Actually, completely ignoring the idea you quoted and running with the concept in the OP is the best way to cut out the RMTs.

Advantages include

• There is no cash created from thin air (aka drops from mobs)
• Drops from mobs would not be sold to vendors for cash created from thin air. They would, at best, be exchanged for newer, better offworld good.
  
• The currency would not be a fiat currency, it would be based on physical goods in the game, and therefore less subject to inflation and manipulation.

personally i'd love credits to stay - its a currency used by loads of writers, kinda standard monetary system of sf, plus it gives the base value of things from services to resources. as for resources and its exchange i don't see why we couldn't have some exchange market just for the resources plus symbolic fee in credits covering delivery.

The Credit has a long history in SciFi writing, going back to at least the 1950s, maybe even earlier.

But as a gaming concept the fiat currency (because every MMO/MUD currency I've seen has been a fiat currency) is bad for the economy, just as it is bad in real life.

And working with a fiat currency the problems that prompted this discussion in the first place remain.

I think that people are put off by a generic term of "mats" when talking about the currency. So I propose that the standard trade quantity of a rare crafting material could be called the "Slug".

 

[phoenix]

I made a post about it that is kinda related-ish.

Spoiler: Here is what I posted

Cy = currency = JJ energy = ammo = ability usage = crafting material = Glider sustain fuel = LGV/MGV Fule=...
Every action costs Cy

Enemies drop a lot of Cy. Missions reward Cy. Thumpers give good Cy. Meteorite impacts give large sums of Cy. Almost everything gives you good Cy income.

Min/max your abilities based on how much Cy you want it to shred. You want high end gear then it's going to burn thru your Cy reserves quickly. If you spam Your weapons and abilities then you'll burn thru your Cy reserve even faster. Don't want to lose a lot of Cy then tune down your gear.

Are you a rich player? You'll max out your gear and lose everything. Are you a poor player? You'll conserve a lot by tuning down your gear and become rich.

With thumping you can get other crafting resources that have a purity(quality). Low purity means that you need more of the same resources to craft something compared to a high purity.

You have a hard cap on how much resources you can have at a time. For example If the cap is 10k and I have 9k and I want to mine an additional 2k then 1k gets discarded. If I'm at the cap then I can't receive additional resources until I discard some from my inventory, sell them on the market or craft items without it.

Items can be modified withe craftable mods. Taking damage or extensively using the items will decrease the durability of said items. You can repair these mods and items with crafting resources and Cy.

Activating items and shooting weapons increase their temperature. Using items and shooting weapons on high temperature breaks your items faster and reduce their effectiveness (power, damage,...). Letting your items "cool down" is key. There are no cooldown timers that say how much you must wait before you can reactivate the ability(with some esxceptions) but if you spam it too much your going to have reduced effectiveness higher Cy usage have you'll have a big repair bill.

A crafting and economy system where there are no rich or poor players, only cautions or careless people.

Link to the thread

 

[Col. Kernel]

That's another interesting concept, @phoenix, and has the similar effect for similar reasons as the OP.

 

[phoenix]

That's another interesting concept, @phoenix, and has the similar effect for similar reasons as the OP.

Thank god, I didn't ready anything not even the OP. I just straight up posted that based on the title. XD

 

[Demigan]

The main difference is the rate at which it leaves the system.

Credits only really used to buy something from NPCs, or from other players on the market, take far far longer to get removed from the economy. It just endlessly builds up trading hands.

Resources used in crafting enter the economy then get burned being used to make something. Removing them from the economy.

The only difference between the money and resources is that you assume the money isn't used to build stuff.

But why not? Why not make money the main currency to evaluate a resource's worth, then when your trading partner has paid you with either money or resources he'll consume the resources he took from you... Including a batch of his own currency.
The Currency would serve two functions. It would determine the baseline value of everything and would be the most universal crafting component so it'll be constantly consumed. This raises the value of the currency and makes sure the currency doesn't stockpile. The best system would be one where people will never reach a position where they can stockpile any resource including the currency. The most easily stockpiled resource would turn into the de-facto currency and start the inflation process as players can throw more and more at it without consequences for their crafting rate. So the standard currency needs to be the most easily attainable, but also leave the economic system through consumption fast enough that no one will ever stockpile it or any other resource.

 

[Wyntyr]

Perhaps trade resources for credits similar to FF, except any resource not just one, and it has an exchange limit per day? This may aid against gold farming. I do know the game will be b2p so perhaps that will help keep that farming down to a minimum but with a limit (even a big one) plus even perhaps a similar 2-3 day wait for friends to trade could keep them out for a good while.

 

[Col. Kernel]

So the standard currency needs to be the most easily attainable, but also leave the economic system through consumption fast enough that no one will ever stockpile it or any other resource.

Yes, but how do you do that? The only other proposal I've seen that lays out details in how to accomplish this is that energy is used for money and that use that energy to power your frame/weapons/vehicles.

As always, the devil is in the details. If the currency itself doesn't have a a use that consumes it, it is a fiat currency. It has no value other than the dev saying "Because I said so". If mats or energy are used for currency then the currency itself has inherent value, and the use of that value (consuming it) helps prevent inflation.

 

[Vladplaya]

If the currency itself doesn't have a a use that consumes it, it is a fiat currency. It has no value other than the dev saying "Because I said so". If mats or energy are used for currency then the currency itself has inherent value, and the use of that value (consuming it) helps prevent inflation.

Everything should cost currency. Everything. Currency sinks everywhere you go. Than they can further adjust how much things cost, or the cost can be auto fluctuating depending on the market for things.

Also resources can be sold too (or converted to money, w/e) but this also can be easily adjusted based on how much resources and money is circulating in the economy. Too much money in the world? Conversion rate is adjusted so you don't get as much etc.

The only real problem would be the players who play 24/7 and just stock pile everything. You can't force them to use/spend resources if they don't want to, and not much can really be done about it. I suppose there can be very expensive items just for that purpose, but if those players don't want to spend piles of money and resources on those items, then so be it, the game should mark them so they would not be part of the economy adjustment, but still keep an eye on them.

Also they can introduce a system that makes resources degrade over time, so high quality resources would become lower quality after weeks, and maybe even low quality resources will eventually become dirt after like months. This is pretty hardcore and very extreme method of preventing large stockpiling, but sometime I feel like you got to do something like this otherwise large clans will always end up with tons of resources just because of amount of players who are willing to play all day long.

 

[Demigan]

Yes, but how do you do that? The only other proposal I've seen that lays out details in how to accomplish this is that energy is used for money and that use that energy to power your frame/weapons/vehicles.

As always, the devil is in the details. If the currency itself doesn't have a a use that consumes it, it is a fiat currency. It has no value other than the dev saying "Because I said so". If mats or energy are used for currency then the currency itself has inherent value, and the use of that value (consuming it) helps prevent inflation.

Eh, exactly as you yourself say: The currency is also consumed in the process. The currency could very well be based on the lowest value resource, or it could be represented by money that is consumed upon crafting as you pay for the services/personnel/service costs. Either way it's consumed and out of the system.
You could also use upkeeps for all buildings and land. This means that part of the money you earn is also lost trying to service your buildings and lands (for instance to prevent erosion). Not all lands will have a high enough monetary income to pay the upkeep, meaning players will sometimes have to trade resources for money sometimes to get enough for both the upkeep and paying for upgrades and expansions. This further fuels the economy, money isn't just something that makes it easy to trade with others, it's actually a commodity people want and need to have.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Eh, exactly as you yourself say: The currency is also consumed in the process. The currency could very well be based on the lowest value resource, or it could be represented by money that is consumed upon crafting as you pay for the services/personnel/service costs. Either way it's consumed and out of the system.
You could also use upkeeps for all buildings and land. This means that part of the money you earn is also lost trying to service your buildings and lands (for instance to prevent erosion). Not all lands will have a high enough monetary income to pay the upkeep, meaning players will sometimes have to trade resources for money sometimes to get enough for both the upkeep and paying for upgrades and expansions. This further fuels the economy, money isn't just something that makes it easy to trade with others, it's actually a commodity people want and need to have.

Why do that artificially when, by using the crafting mats themselves as currency you can have that occur very organically?

I like the idea of building/base upkeep, but there's no reason it can't be done with mats as well.

Then you have the problem of where non-mat currency comes from. Does it drop from the native wildlife? Do you find it while thumping? That concept is ludicrous. Do lions drop $$$ or rifles or ammo IRL? Do bears? No, but animals, native wildlife, could easily have valuable bio materials. This is easily justifiable in game. I do not believe there will be sentient mobs.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Everything should cost currency. Everything. Currency sinks everywhere you go. Than they can further adjust how much things cost, or the cost can be auto fluctuating depending on the market for things.

Also resources can be sold too (or converted to money, w/e) but this also can be easily adjusted based on how much resources and money is circulating in the economy. Too much money in the world? Conversion rate is adjusted so you don't get as much etc.

The only real problem would be the players who play 24/7 and just stock pile everything. You can't force them to use/spend resources if they don't want to, and not much can really be done about it. I suppose there can be very expensive items just for that purpose, but if those players don't want to spend piles of money and resources on those items, then so be it, the game should mark them so they would not be part of the economy adjustment, but still keep an eye on them.

Also they can introduce a system that makes resources degrade over time, so high quality resources would become lower quality after weeks, and maybe even low quality resources will eventually become dirt after like months. This is pretty hardcore and very extreme method of preventing large stockpiling, but sometime I feel like you got to do something like this otherwise large clans will always end up with tons of resources just because of amount of players who are willing to play all day long.

Excessive taxation breeds resentment. Same for money sinks everywhere. You have to justify them so they feel natural within the game environment. As I stated earlier, a currency that has no value is a fiat currency and you're going to eventually suffer from hyper inflation by using it. That's pretty much Economics 101.

As for stockpiling, the Rare mats will be used up in crafting. If material consumption is well balanced (I've never seen that done, BTW) there shouldn't be enough left to stockpile. If you aren't crafting (assuming mats are used for cash on the market) you'll be buying better gear using them.

As for Unc/Common mats, if the vendor accepts them for offworld goods, or if they can be used to maintain buildings/bases, they'll get used up as well.

Item decay sucks. But let's say that you idea for mats degrading is implemented. I mine 100 of X today, and 200 tomorrow, followed by 150 the day after, and so forth. How are you going to track the decay dates? Are you going to have the game put a date stamp on each unit of materials? That's a LOT of overhead.