Should crafting resources be the currency we use?

[Col. Kernel]

That's the entire point of what I said about when a new player comes into the game, THEN (and only then) add a fixed amount to the economy. Give it to the NPCs, which will cause prices to raise slightly, resulting in more people selling material to NPCs to gain credits.

I do not advocate creating money out of nothing, which is basically what every game that I'm aware of does. I suggest that a fixed economy is both more stable and more effective than an infinitely inflating economy.

Creating money from thin air is bad, yet in a real economy wealth is created. Raw materials have no (or rather a potential value) value until they are harvested, then they have a minimal value. When the raw materials are refined, they gain value. When they are manufactured they gain value again, etc, etc, etc.

So, given your dislike of money falling from the sky, and FWIW I agree with you, how about this.

Instead of bartering raw mats they have to be refined after being harvested. After they are refined they are of a uniform purity and can then be used as currency. Lodes closer to settlement could be less pure and lodes harvested further away could be more pure, if Mark wants to have that level of granularity in his economic control.

Edit: I forgot to add, in addition to the losses from refining, a flat 10% charge for the refining process would provide yet another money sink.

 

[TankHunter678]

Well part of Marks plans is a risk vs reward when it comes to mining. That is you can keep going deeper, the fight gets tougher, but you dig more into the rare or high purity ore.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Anyway, I'm rambling. I've made my point. Any economy based on unlimited something is going to be a meaningless economy, because someone can always flood the market with massive volumes of materials, currency, or whatever. Unless things (currency, materials, etc) are limited in some way, then you might as well just manufacture a completely fake economy where prices are hard-coded and otherwise ignored.

In order for the game to be fun to both new and existing players there has to be a fresh source of income for all. So yes, unlimited mats is not optional, it's mandatory.

This is why you need money sinks. Using mats for currency just happens to come with more natural money sinks built in than creating an additional currency system would supply.

 

[TankHunter678]

Come to think of it, a barter economy built around resources is also a bit more resistant to botting. As it will be harder for them to farm up large amounts of mined materials of any true value.

 

[DemonSlayer873]

I'm sorry, who were you quoting here?

oh lol thanks for pointing it out it was suposed to be tank XD

 

[Sik San]

Personally speaking, I'm not really OK with purchased or crafted items decaying over time and breaking.

Too bad it's the only real way to slow the inflation. But tbh, just to slow. EVE is great example. Awesome economics, items can be destroyed. But still there is pretty huge inflation after all those years. But it took years for that while theme park games currencies and prices inflate with the speed of light.

 

[OgreMkV]

Creating money from thin air is bad, yet in a real economy wealth is created. Raw materials have no (or rather a potential value) value until they are harvested, then they have a minimal value. When the raw materials are refined, they gain value. When they are manufactured they gain value again, etc, etc, etc.

So, given your dislike of money falling from the sky, and FWIW I agree with you, how about this.

Instead of bartering raw mats they have to be refined after being harvested. After they are refined they are of a uniform purity and can then be used as currency. Lodes closer to settlement could be less pure and lodes harvested further away could be more pure, if Mark wants to have that level of granularity in his economic control.

Edit: I forgot to add, in addition to the losses from refining, a flat 10% charge for the refining process would provide yet another money sink.

I would tend to agree with this setup.

The question then becomes, how to develop a bartering market in game? I'm less sure of how to accomplish that...

 

[Col. Kernel]

Too bad it's the only real way to slow the inflation. But tbh, just to slow. EVE is great example. Awesome economics, items can be destroyed. But still there is pretty huge inflation after all those years. But it took years for that while theme park games currencies and prices inflate with the speed of light.

I disagree. It's about the money sinks. Repair and replacement is one money money sink. I don't mind repair, as long as my goods get repaired back up to their original stats, but having an item degrade until it breaks is not acceptable to me.

 

[DemonSlayer873]

I disagree. It's about the money sinks. Repair and replacement is one money money sink. I don't mind repair, as long as my goods get repaired back up to their original stats, but having an item degrade until it breaks is not acceptable to me.

At some point money sinks arent enough, look at warframe there are so many stuff that require credits yet ppl who have played for 2+ years have stockpiled tons of credits

 

[Col. Kernel]

I would tend to agree with this setup.

The question then becomes, how to develop a bartering market in game? I'm less sure of how to accomplish that...

Really? It's money. I don't care if you call it Imperials, or Credits, or Paloompahs. This type of money just happens to have additional uses that consume it.

The only real question is about the values of vendoring drops you find, if any, or about buying offworld goods. And those prices should probably be set by how much was spent in the past (rolling) 24 hours on each type of item. If you really want, the cost of refinement could vary with the current usage of energy at your location, so the cost might vary from 8% to 15%. Again, that's if Mark wants to decide on an energy production capacity for each location, upgrading the location would cost offworld credits, so the value of mats might go back up (or down) based on that.

Economies are complex, but this one is based on consumable, physical items and should largely self regulate if set up correctly.

The AH should adjust itself, assuming that players are unable to flip items/mats. And I consider that assumption to be the difference between a usable market and a financial PvP playground. If you want the former, players must be prohibited from buying an item, and then putting it back on the market for a higher price.

Edit: Expounded on the AH.

Edit2: Edit in italics and underlined.

 

[Sik San]

I disagree. It's about the money sinks. Repair and replacement is one money money sink. I don't mind repair, as long as my goods get repaired back up to their original stats, but having an item degrade until it breaks is not acceptable to me.

It becomes off-topic. There is another thread regarding this. We've got off the OP subject

 

[Col. Kernel]

At some point money sinks arent enough, look at warframe there are so many stuff that require credits yet ppl who have played for 2+ years have stockpiled tons of credits

The economy will have to be monitored carefully. As I said, about 3% inflation is healthy. Too much more than that becomes problematic. Just having a consumable unit of money will help keep the economy in check. Mobs not dropping money, but dropping raw mats will help since the mats are consumable and have to be processed before they become money.

In short, there is no magic cure for in-game inflation. Even using mats for currency will simply delay the problem.

Another long term solution may be to open a new area/planet that uses different mats for currency when you reach a certain "power level" as determined by your gear. When you leave this area all your mats are converted to credits, some are used to pay for your trip, and the rest goes into a trust fund where players compete for the top rankings. Best stock up on ammo and energy cells before you convert, though.

I'm not a fan of my last paragraph, but it does show that the problem can be put off if not actually solved.

Edit: Grammar

 

[Sik San]

Another long term solution may be to open a new area/planet that uses different mats for currency when you reach a certain "power level" as determined by your gear. When you leave this area all your mats are converted to credits, some are used to pay for your trip, and the rest goes into a trust fund where players compete for the top rankings. Best stock up on ammo and energy cells before you convert, though.

I'm not a fan of my last paragraph, but it does show that the problem can be put off if not actually solved.

Edit: Grammar

Adding more and more different currencies is not a rly grt idea. We've already seen that in WoW-like games with their bunch of useless tokens.

 

[Squid Boss]

One currency that is bled from the player through a massive selection of daily interactions is perfectly acceptable.

Item repair.
Item crafting.
Blueprint purchases.
Blueprint training.
Craftskill proficiency training.
Marketplace posting costs.
Vendor purchased gear.
Vendor purchased crafting materials. [limited refreshing supply over time]
Color schemes.
Reputation rewards.
Toys.
Consumables.
Cosmetics.
Cosmetic pets.
Skill Changes.
Specialization changes.
Frame changes.
Item recalibration changes.
Etc...etc...

So long as the currency has value in more than one place and can be universal it should flow between players and bleed off through sinks.
Complicating the system with multiple currencies can cause bloat and problems along with tedious accounting.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Adding more and more different currencies is not a rly grt idea. We've already seen that in WoW-like games with their bunch of useless tokens.

If you saw my CoH anecdote you know I agree. The only difference between WoW/CoH and what I proposed being that here you remove your obsolete cash from the game for bragging rights as you move on to greener pastures.

One currency that is bled from the player through a massive selection of daily interactions is perfectly acceptable.

So long as the currency has value in more than one place and can be universal it should flow between players and bleed off through sinks.
Complicating the system with multiple currencies can cause bloat and problems along with tedious accounting.

It would be only one currency per location with your balance consumed upon moving.

But I'm still not a fan of my own solution.

Frankly I think it's

A) A solution in search of a problem
and
B) Not a good solution regardless

 

[EvilKitten]

I do not know how feasible it is but just a thought...

I believe that two major reasons for hyperinflation is trading markets and gold farmers, So what if you removed these from the game? What I would like to suggest is that instead everyone sells their extra resources to an NPC merchant for whatever currency the NPC uses, and can use that currency to buy other resources from the same NPC merchant. The AI will adjust the prices of commodities based on how much is bought and sold to them, thus allowing players to still have an affect. Players will no longer be entirely at the mercy of what other players have pulled out of the ground and at the same time gold farmers have NO WAY TO SELL <money> because there is no direct trading between players. With no way to directly sell gold or items and no power leveling to be done the game would not have many gold farmers.

Sure you can say that it would hurt crafters, but that is not actually true because the NPC merchant would also buy their crafted gear, and based on supply it could be worth a lot or not so much. This is also a good means for the dev's to keep control over the marketplace through markups. The difference between buying and selling a specific item might be say 20%, but if there starts to be too many resources or too much currency it could easily be bumped up to 25% etc.. It also means that there will never NOT be a resource or item available because the merchant technically has infinite resources, albeit the price might be crazy high if what you want is not being sold at all. Still you can have what you want when you want it as long as you are willing to pay for it. So it comes down to which is the better option for the individual player, mining a resource out of the ground which requires time, or paying for the resource which requires money.

 

[Squid Boss]

If you saw my CoH anecdote you know I agree. The only difference between WoW/CoH and what I proposed being that here you remove your obsolete cash from the game for bragging rights as you move on to greener pastures.


It would be only one currency per location with your balance consumed upon moving.

But I'm still not a fan of my own solution.

Frankly I think it's

A) A solution in search of a problem
and
B) Not a good solution regardless

You really don't -need- to break a global currency so long as you create ways to remove it from a players wallet.

I have no problem with additional currencies but feel they are best left used to aquire things outside of the economy.

If Ember uses Credits. That's it. No need to worry about currecy X for area A and currency Y for area B and then worse currency Z for area C.

If we had additional currencies I would really only wish to see them be temporary and for a specifc purpose.

Currently in WoW they are adding a currency usable only for rewards for the pre-patch content leading into Legion expansion. Fun currencies are great and add more life and things to progress on and earn.

In short; Having to rely on multiple sources of currency separated in different levels of content will suck; or one currency simply becomes obsolete and thus we wonder why we have it.

 

[Sik San]

I do not know how feasible it is but just a thought...
I believe that two major reasons for hyperinflation is trading markets and gold farmers, So what if you removed these from the game? What I would like to suggest is that instead everyone sells their extra resources to an NPC merchant for whatever currency the NPC uses, and can use that currency to buy other resources from the same NPC merchant. The AI will adjust the prices of commodities based on how much is bought and sold to them, thus allowing players to still have an affect. Players will no longer be entirely at the mercy of what other players have pulled out of the ground and at the same time gold farmers have NO WAY TO SELL <money> because there is no direct trading between players. With no way to directly sell gold or items and no power leveling to be done the game would not have many gold farmers.

Sure you can say that it would hurt crafters, but that is not actually true because the NPC merchant would also buy their crafted gear, and based on supply it could be worth a lot or not so much. This is also a good means for the dev's to keep control over the marketplace through markups. The difference between buying and selling a specific item might be say 20%, but if there starts to be too many resources or too much currency it could easily be bumped up to 25% etc.. It also means that there will never NOT be a resource or item available because the merchant technically has infinite resources, albeit the price might be crazy high if what you want is not being sold at all. Still you can have what you want when you want it as long as you are willing to pay for it. So it comes down to which is the better option for the individual player, mining a resource out of the ground which requires time, or paying for the resource which requires money.

Having no player-player trades is no fun at all. As for me it's another way of social interaction. And you'll never beat farmers. Sad but true. The only way to fk them up is reducing "out of the air" cash generation as much as possible. No cash from looting monsters, no cash as quest reward, no way to vendor most of the stuff to the npcs, and making limited amounts of money npc can spend for your vendoring. But it makes more job for the devs, cuz they'll have to inject some cash from time to time for the cycling and closely monitoring the situation.

 

[EvilKitten]

Having no player-player trades is no fun at all. As for me it's another way of social interaction. And you'll never beat farmers. Sad but true. The only way to fk them up is reducing "out of the air" cash generation as much as possible. No cash from looting monsters, no cash as quest reward, no way to vendor most of the stuff to the npcs, and making limited amounts of money npc can spend for your vendoring. But it makes more job for the devs, cuz they'll have to inject some cash from time to time for the cycling and closely monitoring the situation.

If there is no power leveling and no direct player trading then how much money a single person has actually becomes far less critical, and how exactly would a gold farmer be able to function in such a situation?

 

[Sik San]

If there is no power leveling and no direct player trading then how much money a single person has actually becomes far less critical, and how exactly would a gold farmer be able to function in such a situation?

As I stated above - restricting player-player trades is lame. Personally I like to trade with ppl. Not just vendoring items to a dumb npc