Chief Chat "CLAIM STAKES 2" VOD - 8/05/2022 (Builds v1.3.1 and v1.3.2)

[Shanie]

Grummz had a revolutionary idea, the loud minority spoke against it, Grummz changed the concept into something that can be viewed as P2W, and the loud minority seemed to agree that this was a better idea... I think that's a major problem.

I 100% agree with this.

I had no problem with Claimstakes. I have a huge problem with gatekeeping content, or even concepting such a thing this early in development, which essentially wastes time that is better off on something required.

If it's truly going to be optional, deprioritize it completely. If it's not optional, everyone must have access to it, else it's pay to win.

If you have an idea of middle ground here, I'd love to hear it, because I've never seen it.

 

[Pandagnome]

the loud minority seemed to agree that this was a better idea... I think that's a major problem, the original idea wasn't a problem because for it to be a problem we first have to find the problems, meaning, we need a test build. Until that happens of course there isn't a problem unless the loud minority turns it into a problem, which they are doing in here

I disagree, Grummz is not stuipid even as you put it loud minority could says e.g. put a pineapple on the top of Copacabana! Question is would there be a pineapple on Copacabana could it outrage some and please some others?

These are just thoughts and those ideas are not even set in stone so let people dabble in that.

"Test first, complain later" would suffice to shut people up about the complaints until we have something to complain about.

People will talk about it no matter if you put all your will to saying shuddup and they won't.
So let them voice what they need to say and you can voice what you need to say simple.

 

[Sy]

claims community "steers the boat"

told that is an objective falsehood

claims to "know how things work"

feelings can't overturn an objective falsehood

lol I'm done.

 

[Quadrana]

I really like this new Idea and love that your making it so that claim-stakes aren't permanent as you mentioned in like final fantasy where if somebody has the big huge mansion but leaves the game it all of a sudden is available again. This idea seems to go way more with you original description of how the game would work and also keeps the game more focused on the community instead of splitting it up into individual spawn worlds based on claim stakes. Love the progress and keep up the great work, sorry I'm not making it to many chief chats and catching up as I can but love how the games continuing towards its final form!

 

[Grummz]

The claimstakes idea is taking on a more tangible shape because of forum and Discord feedback. What started as an exercise of the imagination left a lot of unanswered questions which were voiced here. That's a good thing. In game development, the team will often toss out ideas to each other to get a reaction. Because our team is very small, and because I believe community reaction is a great untapped resource for the sounding of ideas, it's important to get this sort of passionate feedback.

What we are talking about (and not currently developing, I want to make that clear) is making the first housing in MMOs that doesn't suck, and exploring how to do that. MMO housing has sucked because it served no real purpose to the gameplay, or there was not enough of it to go around (FFXIV). Em8ER being proposed as a huge, procedurally generated world, has ample room to solve the housing shortages of FFXIV without being an eyesore like the early MMO days of Ultima Online (houses carpeting the landscape, packed end to end).

But the problem still remains about how to make housing an important endeavor that is not just pure cosmetics. The initial idea of giving housing to everyone from day one solves the problem of the haves and the have-nots and would allow us to put some interesting gameplay in these areas. The more optional or walled off it is, the more towards pure cosmetics it would have to lean. It may be that just allowing for creativity and self expression in building you own home is interesting enough in it's own right. I am leaning towards believing this is not a spectrum, but a binary. Either housing is important to gameplay, or it is not.

Regardless, the idea would have been much better received if the THMPR encounter was already finished. There is a perception out there that the playable mockup is short on features and that now is not the time to be implementing or even talking about claimstakes.

While I agree the THMPR encounter is not finished, as a reminder the promise made at Indiegogo of the playable mockup was "A single player THMPR encounter where you can call down a thumper, shoot enemies, and gather resources." While we have successfully created many more features than ever promised (100 person multiplayer, resource scanning, persistent resources, dropships, pilots, global chat, 24/7 servers), the THMPR encounter still needs final art, AI and gameplay. Until the gray boxes are gone people are just not going to be happy with the idea of entertaining any additional features if it implies time is taking away from that core goal. I believe that once the THMPR encounter is finished, people will be much more open to the idea of claimstakes in general.

 

[PartTimeJedi]

The claimstakes idea is taking on a more tangible shape because of forum and Discord feedback. What started as an exercise of the imagination left a lot of unanswered questions which were voiced here. That's a good thing. In game development, the team will often toss out ideas to each other to get a reaction. Because our team is very small, and because I believe community reaction is a great untapped resource for the sounding of ideas, it's important to get this sort of passionate feedback.

What we are talking about (and not currently developing, I want to make that clear) is making the first housing in MMOs that doesn't suck, and exploring how to do that. MMO housing has sucked because it served no real purpose to the gameplay, or there was not enough of it to go around (FFXIV). Em8ER being proposed as a huge, procedurally generated world, has ample room to solve the housing shortages of FFXIV without being an eyesore like the early MMO days of Ultima Online (houses carpeting the landscape, packed end to end).

But the problem still remains about how to make housing an important endeavor that is not just pure cosmetics. The initial idea of giving housing to everyone from day one solves the problem of the haves and the have-nots and would allow us to put some interesting gameplay in these areas. The more optional or walled off it is, the more towards pure cosmetics it would have to lean. It may be that just allowing for creativity and self expression in building you own home is interesting enough in it's own right. I am leaning towards believing this is not a spectrum, but a binary. Either housing is important to gameplay, or it is not.

Regardless, the idea would have been much better received if the THMPR encounter was already finished. There is a perception out there that the playable mockup is short on features and that now is not the time to be implementing or even talking about claimstakes.

While I agree the THMPR encounter is not finished, as a reminder the promise made at Indiegogo of the playable mockup was "A single player THMPR encounter where you can call down a thumper, shoot enemies, and gather resources." While we have successfully created many more features than ever promised (100 person multiplayer, resource scanning, persistent resources, dropships, pilots, global chat, 24/7 servers), the THMPR encounter still needs final art, AI and gameplay. Until the gray boxes are gone people are just not going to be happy with the idea of entertaining any additional features if it implies time is taking away from that core goal. I believe that once the THMPR encounter is finished, people will be much more open to the idea of claimstakes in general.

Actually after KS I was hoping we would start leaning into designing a bit more of the enemy flora and fauna we would be fighting.
I am talking BESIDES the Tsi-hu and Kaiju or the MAIN warfront in general.
I am talking about the Thumper encounter itself.
Anyone can make a "defend this thing" part of the game, but what made FF Thumpin interesting and replayable was the diversity of "nuisance enemies" and where you tried Thumpin on the map would bring out a plethora of different types. I think in FF there were 12-15 different critters crawling, hopping, slithering and flying in to attack you and your Thumper.
Each of these "nuisance enemies" attacked you and your thumper differently.
In FF every Thumpin encounter was new and unique depending on the location you planted your Thumper, which in turn would determine which of the critters would attack.
Drop your Thumper near the water you get a mix of sea critters and land critters, drop it in the jungle you get a different combination etc etc etc.
**To me THIS was the secret sauce**

In Em8er we have Tsi-hu + beast mode and kneebiters.
So no matter where you do your Thumpin you will fight those 3 enemiy types?
I am going to link a forum post I wrote a while back that explains in detail what I am talking about here.
I personally think Em8er will need these "nuisance enemies" as we did in FF in order to make the Thumpin encounter more enjoyable and more importantly infinitely more replayable.
Link to Forum Post ->
https://forums.em8er.com/threads/co...team-thmpr-encounter-enemies.1902/#post-60315

 

[vadio#5055]

Grumz.... its because you only think about house..... think more about LAND PLOT and you can do several things beyond house

House itself can give "Skill bonus" "Craft Roll" based in "prestige" if they logout in bed for 8h ... you login next day and get x min of buff , depend buff can be random in fact beyond house itself

I Forget expand my topic in economy... section BUT LIFE SKILLS
Farming , Forestry(to build furniture or house materials) , Fishing(create pound , feed fishing using farm , to get fishing to buffs or materials) , Drilling , or even personal terraforming structure (that lead rewards after world milestone) tailor/sheeps its good example , can be nice source of fashion war.. etc etc

And usual craft station , use public craft station be kind expensive (20-30% resource sink , extra cost) , its can push to players have they own

They own shops , like Star wars galaxies you can create you own shop , sell stuffs , and make own city , but if zone get upgrade to city/node this can be attack and destroy same rule as warfront...

Its why i can see as core concept , and same time optional , and mix both

Life Skills | Black Desert Wiki | Fandom
Investing | Black Desert Wiki | Fandom
Housing | Black Desert Wiki | Fandom
Skills – Ultima Online (uo.com)
Mortal Online Skill List | Mortal Data (archive.org)
Ashes 101 - Ashes of Creation Housing System / Ashes 101 - Ashes of Creation Freeeholds

 

[Sy]

What we are talking about (and not currently developing, I want to make that clear) is making the first housing in MMOs that doesn't suck, and exploring how to do that. MMO housing has sucked because it served no real purpose to the gameplay, or there was not enough of it to go around...

What about elements of RTS upgrade buildings in a claimstake? This way a player can fund and build choices that would give gameplay benefits. Where items are crafted individually or by the community, the personal claimstake technology could be important for self-defined item variations.

So someone else could build a gun but the player builds the upgrade module for reload speed via their claimstake.

There was once a notion of having classic differences between pilots having attribute and therefore gameplay differences. The tropes of the burly strong pilot, the thin fast pilot, etc. The claimstake could be bound to concepts of frame trope variations.

I still don't like the notion of making housing useful. I'm still of the opinion that I don't want to be forced to isolate myself into single-player "MMO" housing.

 

[jake_speed#6680]

Grumz.... its because you only think about house..... think more about LAND PLOT and you can do several things beyond house

House itself can give "Skill bonus" "Craft Roll" based in "prestige" if they logout in bed for 8h ... you login next day and get x min of buff , depend buff can be random in fact beyond house itself

House is just the nomenclature, because its the player housing system.
I don't think, in the original CC, he ever said it would just be a house. In fact, I got the distinct impression it would have been integral to your own personal growth in power.

I think he even mentioned you might have several buildings to house crafting machines, and this all ties into the physicalization of crafting. I'd have to watch the VOD again to be sure, but assuming so. Hell, I was talking about potential publicization of personal crafting in some other threads somewhere a la a Work Order system.

The way I imagined it was so you're out hunting for several hours or so.. You go back home, getting some winddown time. You kick off several crafting machines to build components, etc, working closer to that gun you want or even a gun someone else wants. Maybe take care of some random home tasks such as watering the farm or harvesting. Recruit your neighbors or anyone at their own home in the sector to turn away a home invasion for some bonus loot or play mercenary and get recruited to turn away other's home invasions with them. Build that shiny new machine you got the materials for on your hunting trip so you can make even more powerful gear.

This way you are making meaningful progress to something, whether it be cash from selling stuff, or buffs from food or the power from shiny new gun. It gives value to resources outside of just throwing them into the warpit, and can give the player a more meaningful sense of progression as they eventually turn their shack into a personal manufactory.

I never got the impression that Grummz was talking about "just a house" from the original CC.

 

[VRK9]

Since there will be "bases" scattered around the world, why not having only a couple of them controled by the ally AI NPCs (in the design thing and such) and for lore reasons, that players will feed with resources to upgrade them, defend...
But a lot of them (land plots) could be player "controled" maybe in a guild style, where guilds build their cities inside the cities walls while players could have land plots near those cities (this will avoid having houses lost in nowhere). In this way players of the guild want to feed and protect their cities in the same way as major NPC bases and players "out of the walls" will want the same thing to protect their stuff and use the city bonuses while they don't have their guild with their city.

I think that some thing in this way could made everyone happy, because housing will serve a real purpose to the gameplay, being more than just cosmetic, they could be part of the lore and they will not be just a random thing in the open world.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

1. Grummz announces a new feature, open-world claimable land as strategic housing.
- Community riots. (no i hate that, i don't like it, i would never pay for it).

2. Grummz says ok, let's make it paid content (as suggested by some members).
- Community gets divided. (pls no locked content, what happens when i take a break, P2W?...)

3. Grummz says alright, we're dumbing it down to a more "tangible shape".
- Community now wants to fill the in the very void they created - remember, you guys voted for this!

4. Zingo comes in and asks which way they want it, claims or no claims?
- (fill in the empty space down below)

 

[Wyntyr]

I'm a bit lost, as usual. Are claim stakes for crafting folks or doesn't suck housing folks?

 

[Pandagnome]

Lets say you have homes in various areas such as
- Underwater sectors
- Land areas
- In the sky within the sky base

Each of these have there benefits e.g.
Sky bases are closer to others more community and easier to get to start and help. (Free no payment/ingame currency)

Land areas are further away some are bunched while others may be isolated. (Not free so to speak but requires resources, ingame currency to get)

Underwater sectors are much much further away and the risks are added by the underwater pressures, sea organisms and being further away from others may seem great but it involves a different kind of risk.

2 categories of underwater homes
a) Floating / Anchored - (Resources, ingame currency and benefits of fishing spots)
b) Ultra Deep Sea (Paid its further away and isolated)

- Homes that are free (Starter homes or those who like to be around others)
- Homes that are not entirely free involving resources and ingame currency (Progression to take the journey should you chose and make a home in the land / sea either with others or for yourself)
- Homes that are paid could be part of the monthly sub they wont give any benefits of winning since they are further away from where everything is happening it is just more isolated and may have different kinds of risk.

 

[Pandagnome]

I'm a bit lost, as usual. Are claim stakes for crafting folks or doesn't suck housing folks?

I'd imagine homes for anyone depends what you want to use the home for e.g.

Some might like to use their home as a repair station so when trucks need a pit stop they could visit there.
What about if someone made a home on the beach area with a social scene because its ideal for social events like surfing events and beach parties etc etc

I like the idea that was mentioned with license because if you wanted to be a legit medical station home you would need to complete requirements for the role provided for the structure in question.

That way your home would have a function for the Em8er world for the service and players would build their reps by not just helping other players it could even be npc's too.

 

[Sy]

Just drop it guys. It was an idea that was spitballed and still has no decisions or development time.

Zingo was repeatedly talked with by the community on Discord to no avail. Eloquence and repetition couldn't get through. Then Fae, then Ronyn, then Grummz sorted it out today. TL;DR this was all conversation, nothing is decided, the community only has ideas not decisions or some "vocal minority" concept, Grummz isn't a pushover, and there is more thinking to do and lots of time to do it in.

We've given good feedback and really helped discuss related ideas, even when (perceived as) polarized or extreme. Nothing has been decided, so this isn't something to worry about.

It's still important to "get it right", whatever that means. Housing has been kinda trash in games and should somehow be interesting, useful, and unique. All of this is just a notion that won't see any effort or thought until past Kickstarter. I'm certain it'll get brought up again with a more coherent idea from the devs, and we can discuss it from better footing and not just these current confusing daydreams.

Right now it's becoming noise, and everyone should want the devs to have their minds on more immediate things. (like the heavy and light frames)

(That reminds me to post about the heavy; there are some ideas that might be important to discuss early because they might directly influence prototype modeling.) edit: https://forums.em8er.com/threads/on-frame-entry.2298/

 

[Pandagnome]

Just drop it guys. It was an idea that was spitballed and still has no decisions or development time.

We've given good feedback and really helped discuss related ideas, even when (perceived as) polarized or extreme. Nothing has been decided, so this isn't something to worry about.

I don't really use discord as much so for me the forum is where i get the most feedback / information.
I am sure lots of feedback are shared in the discord so there is more to it than just what i see in the forums i'd assume.

It's still important to "get it right", whatever that means. Housing has been kinda trash in games and should somehow be interesting, useful, and unique.

Soooooooooooooon

(That reminds me to post about the heavy; there are some ideas that might be important to discuss early because they might directly influence prototype modeling.)

Do it !!!

 

[Mahdi]

Between these words.”Grummz isn't a pushover, and there is more thinking to do and lots of time to do it in.” And the comment about it not taking any development time/resources right now….people need to stop worrying/fussing about it. Thank you, Sy.

 

[Grummz]

I had no idea they were planning this, but FFXIV just released claimstakes for all subscribers, complete with farming (which I was planning on). It's the most popular feature and the servers getting full.

 

[Grummz]

I had no idea they were planning this, but FFXIV just released claimstakes for all subscribers, complete with farming (which I was planning on). It's the most popular feature and the servers getting full.

Ours will be non-instanced.

 

[Thorp]

Monster Hunter 3rd (PSP) has solo player farm that used the companion pets for certain tasks. There were some silly/cute animations for them as they went off on their own adventures and bring stuff back for you. Also you could watch them run laps, lift weights, ect. depending on which attribute you told them to improve. Altogether there was a monotonous routine to it but all the resources could be harvested in the world or at your farm you could specifically grow them and roll the dice for mining them.

I would much rather hire a bunch of Felyne (aka Palico) to do all the labor while I manage their efforts.