Firefall's Spiritual Successor...?

[liandri]

I'm still of the mind that when games attempt to focus on making sure everyone is a hybrid with no class roles, everything becomes a DPS race right from the beginning.

I wholeheartedly believe that the customisation options in Em-8ER will solve this issue for the vast majority of players, but I still agree. Whatever build manages to eliminate the most Tsi-hu in the least amount of time, or is most effective at taking down Kaiju (in Firefall terms, whichever frame becomes the new meta Rhino or Mammoth) will be the one a lot of people will play. Personally never understood the allure of being able to "hold down button and everything dies" builds. It isn't fun.

What I really don't want Em8er "teamwork" to become is people barely interacting with each and just blowing things away without a care in the world. Honestly, even firefall was like this. No content I every reached ever needed a medic or dragonfly.

Here's hoping that the AI is smart enough and capable enough to REQUIRE teamwork WITHOUT unfairly punishing the players who want to go it solo. If it's not bright enough, it'll be abused. If it's too smart, it'll be fun at the start but get aggravating after a bit. There needs to be a balance but it needs to constantly change depending on the players actions to maintain the balance. I'd definitely love see what Panda suggested, a battle against the Devs would be an awesome event!

Firefall did have that problem, especially with Kanaloa and Baneclaw. Some players just won't want to join others, we have to accept that. I remember fighting that first Elite Kobold in the human area of WoW. People either wanted to group, wanted to gank, or try to solo.

The Dragonfly. I loved that frame. Very painful alone, but other players appreciated it if you played it like a healer.

 

[lykosfx]

Good Morning!

I was updating myself by reading some topics on the Em-8er forum, and I came across this title “Spiritual Successor to Firefall…?” and I was very curious to know the subject of the doubt.

I read the text very carefully, a few times, and realized that the people who gave their opinions did not understand very well the concern that "Viikoreaux" is having in "directing the development of the MMO Em-8er".

By reading the text very carefully, I understood what your concern is. What catches my attention is related to “Human Factor” vs “Machine Factor”. This concern, I had already presented, with a very simple text that does not compare with the text of “Viikoreaux”, in 2017, in “directing the development of the MMO Em-8er to Fator Machine” (at that time I did not know that the MMO Em-8er was linked to the RPG of Mesa da Crixa).

To understand the concern of "Viikoreaux", we need to understand a little of what the Firefall MMO was. In this case, I will leave a little of my observations, the main segments that made me like MMO.

1st. - Directing the development of the MMO Firefall to the Human Factor, being in cities like Copacabana and seeing the movement of PCs and the various skins, cosmetics and custom custons - one "thing" combined with the other, was very curious and cool;

2nd. - The Static Mining Machine that needed to be defended in order not to be destroyed by chaotic creatures, was a great challenge;

3rd. - The Printer, which was very interesting at the time of CloseBeta, was a great novelty in having items such as DNA, gaseous, liquid and solid combining to build specific equipment for a given combat class;

4th. - The JetPack that was the novelty of the MMO, which I thought was an excellent idea, which I liked very much in the battles against the Chosen.

5th. - Invasions that were dynamic events that appeared periodically with 4 types of difficulty. An excellent idea and a lot of fun.

We also have to understand, that the MMO Firefall technology was just a complement for the PC to complete its difficulties and advance the game. It was a concept that appealed to hundreds of thousands of players who registered for the MMO Firefall during their lifetime.

Now we need to understand what the MMO Em-8er is currently doing. I will leave only my observations, which are few, but enough to compare the segments.

1st. - Directing the development of the MMO Em-8er to the Machine Factor. Opposite direction of the development of the MMO Firefall;

2nd. - A High Enough Mobile Robot as a Miner capable of defending itself against chaotic creatures and the player already has access to the ores as soon as the Robot removes them from the ground, I still don't see a challenge in using the Robot;

3rd. - Printer, needs to be confirmed if it will be added to the game;

4th. - JetPack, I read that it will be added to the game. Very good;

5th. - The Invasions, I also read that it will be added to the game. Very good.

In the case of the MMO Em-8er, the technology is no longer a complement to the PC, it is the PC itself.

In the first concern of "Viikoreaux", which I consider to be the most important, which is the direction of the development of the MMO, it is the basis of all other systems.

If the success of the MMO Firefall is related to the Human Factor, which is the basis of this MMO, when the developers of the MMO Em-8er changed the direction to the Machine Factor, it also changed the sense of saying that this MMO is the Spiritual Successor of Firefall , because the basis of the MMO has been changed.

If the largest public of acceptance for the MMO Firefall follows the Human Factor, then what will become of the MMO Em-8er that follows the Machine Factor?

This is very serious. It is necessary that the developers and the players that sponsor the MMO do a reflection, research and a poll on this subject of the direction that the MMO should go. This responsibility cannot be left only on the back of the Crixa, even more so if the MMO Em-8er is linked with a Table RPG that follows the Machine Factor.

In the case of Mesa da Crixa RPG, following the Human Factor or the Machine Factor (no matter what the choice is), it does not affect the players because the relationship between these players is of face-to-face interpretation, dice roll and marking results. And if an error occurs in the 1st. Edition, just launch a 2nd. Editing at a small cost. And everyone is happy.

In the event of a link between the Mesa da Crixa RPG and the MMO Em-8er, developers are being forced to direct the development of the MMO Em-8er towards the Machine Factor.

In the research of MMOs, of those who earn more income and population for their servers, in an open world game, it is just the MMOs developed in the Human Factor.

A great MMO as an example is GuildWars2, which some time ago, several gaming sites said that GuildWars2 was already old and obsolete, and recently, NCSoft released a financial newsletter showing that GuildWars2 was the game that earned the most profit, and the team ArenaNet is already projecting a new expansion (I won't even go into details about these game sites).

Now, look at the MMO rank list and see the placement of any MMO developed in Machine Factor. You will find that there is a long way between the two factors.

In the second concern of “Viikoreaux”, which is also important, it is about the scale of the Omniframes that can affect the Loja da Crixa as explained above.

Now let's reflect a little, if the MMO Em-8er becomes an F2P, the company will become dependent on sales of skin, cosmetics and PC custon, that is, from Loja da Crixa. If the scale of these machines really does affect the Store, how will Crixa keep the MMO Em-8er working?

In my opinion, if the developers of the MMO Em-8er make a reflection and a survey about these concerns and the Human Factor is the majority's choice, my suggestion is to separate the Table RPG from the Crixa of the MMO Em-8er and create a new story for MMO from the Human Factor. Creatures already created do not affect this change, just create a new story and add the creatures.

An interesting detail ...

When Red5 closed its doors, I have been watching the game releases in 2018, 2019, 2020 and those that will still be released in 2021 and 2022, and in my observations, these games don't even reach the foot of what was the MMO Firefall.


These are my observations.
I hope I helped.
Thanks you for your attention.
lykosfx.

* MMO Em-8er on the Linux Mint 64x platform.

** Translation done on Google.

*** If it is difficult to understand the English text, please consult the player FabricioRJ21, who was a moderator of the “firefall br forum” which kept us informed of the news from the developers translating the news from English to Portuguese. In the Em-8er forum, he is the only person I know who knows both languages (Portuguese / English).

It is at this point that I ask if it would be interesting to create the foreign language forums with a moderator who can bridge the gap between Crixa developers and the players.


.

 

[Thorp]

No content I every reached ever needed a medic or dragonfly.

There definitely needs to be a balance to an extent that players are not forced to need healers for most things in the game. Being locked out of most content because a healer is not around is a total bummer. But there needs to be areas that players need to coordinate and fill those archetype gaps.

I'm unsure what to expect with Em8er's gear freedom approach. I can imagine builds will stay within the typical trinity layouts but I also expect some disjointed ones. In my experience players adapt their builds based on what they need to keep their min/max without lacking too much survivability. I therefore expect that if there is a lackluster representation of healers then players will run damage builds with at least some way of healing themselves. Continually if healers make an appearance and provide enough survivability then I expect the meta to shift to the typical mmo trinity where people min/max an archetype (damage or healing).

I did appreciate Guild War 2's approach in not forcing players to need a full circle of archetypes. As a player I always felt like I could do anything whenever I wanted whereas in other mmos that require trinities, finding a group could be a total bust and a waste of my free time. However when it comes to feeling "pride" in the archetype or "purpose" in a game it makes a significant difference when your character is built for a specific job.

And back onto this statement:

No content I every reached ever needed a medic or dragonfly.

I'd say that's a bit unfortunate and I agree I came across that too. I however did find my purpose in smaller groups where we took on thumpers bigger than our squad size and reclaimed towers while outgunned. When FF pvp existed I had great fun and purpose when I encouraged my teammates to purposefully overextend. Took some grooming but I find that if the playerbase is confident in their healer and you openly encourage them to be more reckless they'll do it and need a healer. [more about my thoughts on my medic experience in FF and other games]

 

[Mahdi]

"Took some grooming but I find that if the playerbase is confident in their healer they'll find ways to need one."

Damn it, if that ain't the truth!

 

[Dam13n]

Nicely put.

Yeah, there's a couple of things i'll keep coming back on when it comes to what is important and made Firefall so beloved.

Moment to moment gameplay;
Jumpjets and movement, cool abilities, huge emphasize on dynamic events. The either participation in a massive warfront or the anticipation of one (like the timer for the Sunken harbor and Thump dump invasions) even the idea of "the real war is still coming" was a hook that kept you invested in it.

That stuff was really important but also;

I also agree a 100% the importance of the printer in Firefall for example, it was an organic social hub and i know i shall name that should not be named here but the decay system was a great means to turn the printer into a waterhole.

cough* Compromise: consumables integrated in the gear itself *cough.

The more "mellow" gameplay of thumping (depended on your thumper tier of course).

There are key components that Ember must eventually replicate or emulate to a degree to really bring back that feeling of what made Firefall so action packed, so liberating and made you feel like such a badass. While at the same time having just as enjoyable downtime in the social hub that served not just as social hub but had an actual gameplay reason to keep returning for aka, he who should not be named. The game was far from perfect but what it did right (pre-launch) it did REALLY right. If this can be replicated and improved upon it might never reach AAA success status (and let's be real here, this is dictated by trends. Not competence) but will always have a cult like following, as did Firefall.

There's a reason we all loved that game and it's more that one component. it's the sum total of these and how these systems organically interacted with each other.


As a main Assault, i love the medium Em8er frame. It still requires some tweaking but the general potential for the hit and run or death from above playstyle is definitely there. and don't get me started on the design. The thing looks cool AF. This is personal preference ofc.

Once Em8er goes live that's what 'ill be wearing 90% of the time.

 

[Pandagnome]

I'm still of the mind that when games attempt to focus on making sure everyone is a hybrid with no class roles, everything becomes a DPS race

When i think of hybrid they are just the inbetween not the highest dps or the heal,
So having the actual class gives us more focus on that strength and having the hybrid is just another option.

Would it replace the other class dont think so could add more variety in builds and ways depending on your play style.

While I loved that every class had it's own heal skills, that also meant that there was zero need for healers. If you couldn't kill it before it killed you, just use your emergency heal button and get back to DPSing.

Thats a good point, do hope that we either have a slightly longer cool down for heals / slow heals over time compared to healers. Meaning that heals should be used responsibly. Otherwise being close by to a medic or some sort of heal station if no medic is around.

What I really don't want Em8er "teamwork" to become is people barely interacting with each and just blowing things away without a care in the world.

With big world wide events there could be more to it such as repairing stuff, healing other players, deploying defenses, crafting additional supply to be dropped etc etc

So guess if people just blew stuff up would end up losing and it would effect everyone since the enemy have taken over our research bases and that could perhaps reduce our production or even make us unable to use certain thing perhaps.

Maybe there could be achievements for daily random team ups with different people and the reward to encourage to play with others?

What if there are areas that not just 1 individual can get in and that it needs a team effort to get in an example could be

Mothership infiltration situation in my mind

- Recon can get in but would find it hard to defend the entrance point without an engineer to seal it up after.

- Inside the mothership its going to be even tougher your going to really need some heals for sure a medic could be handy

- Now right inside the heart of the mothership there are scanners, experimental units and traps
so the recon does its thing but during the time you have to make a diversion while this can go on as the hacking process might take longer a slip up and the alarm goes off.

- Now your relieved you have your team behind the tank deploying the toughest shield while the others do dps and the medic healing the recon and others etc

- how are you going to escape one of you needs to call for the dropship leave a player less.
Since the lockdown has made it that more tougher. You all decide to all hold on for as long as possible.

- until the last moment the recon leads out scouting for any obstraction and finds some heavy units
with motion detection the recon runs back to let the team know.

- The damage is too much for the tank to take so you have to use the cover of the pillars or walls until it gets destroyed. Thankfully assault has your back blasting away and using its damage to take some aggro too.

- Sadly your pet gets wiped out :OOO but its ok 3d printing technology helps to create your pet eventually but after sometime the cool down may be longer.

- You make it out the dropship arrives and you have stopped the threat for this time.


Perhaps It could depend on the objective and its difficulty so if the biomes with each difficulty since there could be many biomes with varying difficulty the question is do you do it alone and end up fustrated or do you call in your fellow reapers and make it more enjoyable.

Its crazy how a boss could die so fast with just dps if the health of the boss was so high and it was powered by a device that kept regenerating it fast meaning they would need to stop the device whilst keeping the boss busy.

There could be many situation for blasting stuff generally if you add some extra layers to an objective such as

doing 5 things at once making it virtually impossible for 1 to do but as a group you can manage it better.


- race to nearest tower activate before time
- collect the required processors for the device
- Capture attack vehicle to transport processors
- Scan the area for potential hidden turrets and death squads otherwise will make the mission harder
-Defend and escort vehicle back to extraction before enemy catch up with reinforcements


Got a good feeling that with a team this game will be good and if we are talking about solo players perhaps the pet could be enhanced in some way to help. What out bots that replace players an example when playing l4d2 if a player leaves the group they are replaced by the bot.

The bot is quite poopy but they do make great bait lures !

 

[Dam13n]

From what I understand there will be certain limitations implemented with what the frame types (light, heavy, medium) can do with this freedom of choice. Like a heavy can still be very mobile but it certainly wont be a Tracer. Or a medium might be able to use turrets but its number of turrets will be limited and less effective.

Certain abilities will still be hard or soft locked behind an archetype I think.

I think the idea of the Omni frame archetypes freedom is not to discard specialized class building but to give more frames, jack of all trades qualities that even though still effective no where near as capable as the specialized frames.

 

[PartTimeJedi]

I'm still of the mind that when games attempt to focus on making sure everyone is a hybrid with no class roles, everything becomes a DPS race right from the beginning. Guild Wars 2 was a prime example of this. It marketed itself as creating a new holy trinity of Damage, Control and Support, but never fleshed out or made viable anything but damage. So literally from the beginning of the game's launch, dungeon parties were solely dps builds. While I loved that every class had it's own heal skills, that also meant that there was zero need for healers. If you couldn't kill it before it killed you, just use your emergency heal button and get back to DPSing.

While I think games like wow do get quite boring after awhile (i'm just now quitting classic wow), that was because of the repetitive and un-rewarding end game. Having to keep your tank alive as a healer, or being careful not to out-threat your tank as a DPS, or just struggling to keep hold of enemy's attention as a tank, those were all really engaging until everyone got geared enough that nothing was an issue. At any other point in the game, if you messed up your role, it meant either you or the whole party dying. There were consequences to not playing your part and rarely could anyone save themselves without working together.

What I really don't want Em8er "teamwork" to become is people barely interacting with each and just blowing things away without a care in the world. Honestly, even firefall was like this. No content I every reached ever needed a medic or dragonfly. For me, it made it so I couldn't play the way I wanted without being a useless burden to everyone else.

I would like to say that I agree with your support role assessment in FF EXCEPT when in Beta we would push back the meld to have a huge Baneclaw fight. That's when my being a support frame shone. As the heavies were lined up firing away they really had no defense and would slowly lose health. Myself and the other Bioframes would heal them while in between fighting off the mini-claws.
That was pretty much the only time I remember actually being a med support was needed.

 

[Dam13n]

Some thought also just hit me (because of the naming of companies but it is unrelated), there was a CLEAR undertone towards Greek mythology in Firefall. The Midas still haunts me, i still stand by my main theory that the Midas was a time traveling ship.

It's not like there's not a ton of stuff to work with, from more eastern mythologies.

And then there was this...

 

[Dam13n]

As far as i'm aware the name they give it is a mystery box. It's the same as Attack on Titan.
Attack on Titan is a mystery box.

It is something that worked very well for Firefall and for the exact same reasons, it will work just as good for Em8er. You don't need that much story if the players themselves just get a bunch of puzzle pieces.

 

[Pandagnome]

You don't need that much story

Some stories but not too much stories because the novel will give us nice stories!!!

 

[Dam13n]

Some stories but not too much stories because the novel will give us nice stories!!!

No and that indeed fits with it as the general player will not be even aware of these. The novels will remain novel. They are not going to be well known by your average player.

 

[Pandagnome]

No and that indeed fits with it as the general player will not be even aware of these. The novels will remain novel. They are not going to be well known by your average player.

We will uncover much things as we continue on the adventure some may just remain a mystery !