Skeptical of the game

Jul 10, 2019
4
19
3
#21
@Maven A lot of the arguments for, seem to be centered on how small of a team it is and how basically only Grummz is working full time.

But as a Firefall fan myself, I don't see that as particularly comforting.

I am not super well versed on the happenings of early Firefall development, but I can't help but remember all the weird side projects and mismanagement that lead to Grummz being voted out of the FF company to begin with. That coupled with his inability to take criticism at the time, getting mad at memers and fans alike, has me skeptical of his desire to pull this off.

To me and I suspect a lot of other people, it looks like he is coasting on his "I was a wow dev" clout and sees Em8er as just another revenue stream.

I am not saying: "they are not getting the game made."
Obviously they are, as evidenced by the tracking of the project linked in this thread. And the recent release of the terrain preview.

What I am saying is: "They'll abandon it once the cash flow starts to recede, giving it up to another red-bean crazed pseudo-company." Or they get a better opportunity.

How can we be sure our love for Firefall is not being exploited?

@Pandagnome It's not the doubter's fault; we have good reason to be skeptical. And skepticism is a healthy part of developing anything.

If there is anything that helps dis-spell this distrust in Grummz, like a video, an open letter, a better explanation of the FF timeline, etc, that would be very much appreciated.
 

Drakin5

Deepscanner
Dec 15, 2016
700
1,285
93
#22
Also, there aren’t that many competition to Em8er so the dev team has less to worry about the marketing. Ok, maybe except Planetside 2, Pantropy, Rust and a few other survival simulation games but that’s about it. Add in the ‘indie devs take a long time to make games’ mentality and you could see that the team is pretty laid back. It’s like trying to connect two lands by building a massive freeway with the cruise control on and those who know of the project may be few in numbers but it’s a twofer investment deal. The only massive pitfall I could see is if Crixa Labs gets bought out by a greedy investor.

Not to mention that some of the best games on the market are made by indie devs. And the fact that the many triple A companies only care about $,£ and € leading to microtransaction shenanigans so....
 
Likes: Markolis

Mahdi

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
620
1,300
93
Montana, US
#23
@Maven A lot of the arguments for, seem to be centered on how small of a team it is and how basically only Grummz is working full time.

But as a Firefall fan myself, I don't see that as particularly comforting.

I am not super well versed on the happenings of early Firefall development, but I can't help but remember all the weird side projects and mismanagement that lead to Grummz being voted out of the FF company to begin with. That coupled with his inability to take criticism at the time, getting mad at memers and fans alike, has me skeptical of his desire to pull this off.

To me and I suspect a lot of other people, it looks like he is coasting on his "I was a wow dev" clout and sees Em8er as just another revenue stream.

I am not saying: "they are not getting the game made."
Obviously they are, as evidenced by the tracking of the project linked in this thread. And the recent release of the terrain preview.

What I am saying is: "They'll abandon it once the cash flow starts to recede, giving it up to another red-bean crazed pseudo-company." Or they get a better opportunity.

How can we be sure our love for Firefall is not being exploited?

@Pandagnome It's not the doubter's fault; we have good reason to be skeptical. And skepticism is a healthy part of developing anything.

If there is anything that helps dis-spell this distrust in Grummz, like a video, an open letter, a better explanation of the FF timeline, etc, that would be very much appreciated.
Still dont get why people cant get their facts straight. The9 dis all they could to travel Grummz around and keep him from being in the studio managing firefall properly. Yes, the comment on his raging is true. So what? You never raged at some pvp death? Just as trivial. As for your request of a letter, Grummz has already done that openly and in tremendous detail to this community. There were failings on his part in firefall and due to his responsibilities there is blame. He has also owned up to that. Have you never disappointed someone and failed them? I dont get how people use one game, being firefall, again at his incredible track record. Mind boggling and makes me lean towards dismissing their perspective entirely.

Skeptics are always going to be present. It isn't healthy as you say. It comes from personal bias instead of being objective. Being wary, on the other hand is healthy.
 

Maven

Kaiju Slayer
Max Kahuna
Jul 26, 2016
189
829
93
#24
@Nausical Since I was referenced here, I will try and respond to your concerns one by one.


@Maven A lot of the arguments for, seem to be centered on how small of a team it is and how basically only Grummz is working full time.

But as a Firefall fan myself, I don't see that as particularly comforting.
This is so because it is a simple fact. One of the major gripes of individuals that come on here, and are skeptical of Mark and his intentions, is that the game isn't being built fast enough.

The first point they throw out is that Mark has got the money from the funding, so why don't we have X, Y and Z already?

Well, there is no project in the world that has become a reality just because there was a capital base. You need the manpower to execute the job. And right now, Mark is trying to manage resources by maintaining a part time team to produce content and keep the project on track. And when you have individuals using up time off their regular day jobs to work on a passion project, giving them a bit of leeway is the least we can do.


I am not super well versed on the happenings of early Firefall development, but I can't help but remember all the weird side projects and mismanagement that lead to Grummz being voted out of the FF company to begin with. That coupled with his inability to take criticism at the time, getting mad at memers and fans alike, has me skeptical of his desire to pull this off.
Neither am I. I was, for the most part a forum lurker, joined well into beta, .6 or .7 I believe, and never really got much time to put into the game. But yes, nobody here denies that there was mismanagement when it came to the development of firefall. Even the most diehard supporter of Mark, or he himself, would never deny that several mistakes were made in the development process. And yet you give yourself an answer to a certain degree here. The phrase 'at the time' is significant. The hardcore skeptics, those that badmouth him to this day, years after Firefall failed, constantly harp on about what he was. They refuse to accept that one can learn lessons from past mistakes, and that they can try and change things, do things better. Everyone bangs 'The Bus' drum. Noone is willing to accept that if it were not for WCC completely failing on the project, 'The Bus' could have been a massive success. They also conveniently ignore the fact that 'The Bus' was never paid for, due to the complete failure on WCC's part.

Were mistakes made? Yes. Can you learn from it and change for the better? Yes.

Are you wrong to mistrust Mark? No. Nobody would blame you. All we, those of us who back Mark and this project, ask, is that you come here with an open mind and make your own opinions, instead of standing outside the fence and echoing the 'Reddit post said so' crowd. The fact that you are here and inquiring about what makes this tick, shows that you are reasonable, and that's all that is needed.


To me and I suspect a lot of other people, it looks like he is coasting on his "I was a wow dev" clout and sees Em8er as just another revenue stream.
Well, I can assure you that to most of us here in the community, the only credentials that matter is that this is a man who had a vision to create a one-of-a-kind MMO, and would have pulled it off too, if it weren't for The9. Granted, there are fans of all his games in here, but what keeps us here is his desire to not let that dream of his fade into obscurity simply because he failed once.


What I am saying is: "They'll abandon it once the cash flow starts to recede, giving it up to another red-bean crazed pseudo-company." Or they get a better opportunity.
Ah, the travails of running a business. It's maddening how you can have all the ideas, all the market knowledge, all the money you need, and yet one simple mistake can rip the entire project off its foundations and grind it to dust. Hindsight is always 20/20, foresight on the other hand is a potent mix of research, market knowledge amd crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. Firefall unfortunately got the wrong end of the stick when it came to that last bit.

Was the decision to bring The9 into the fold the wrong one? Today we can say a hearty yes. Back then, it was a choice they made to keep the project running. Did anyone expect The9 would force the game in the direction they did? I doubt it. But, that they did, is a fact. And that turned all of Firefall on its head.

Mark has, on several occasions, spoken of his distaste of modern corporate business approach ruining games and destabilizing established gaming behemoths. He is quite vocal of this, be it on discord or on twitter.
Having experienced it first hand, he wants to keep the game away from these 'suits'.

He has taken the first few steps in this regard by establishing a crowdfunding system for the game, where the game is backed entirely by the community. And on top of it, he has broken the crowdfunding into multiple milestones. Each milestone will have its own feature set. If and when the community funds it, said feature sets will be worked on. If the community loses faith in the team, the milestone will not be funded and development stops. Thus he is trying to avoid the common pitfall that games like Star Citizen are going through.

I can only say that everything that has been said and done so far gives me faith that Mark has the drive, desire and the right intentions. He wants his pet project to be real, as much as, and maybe even more, than any of us here. While it may be just a game for us, Mark's credibility probably depends on him pulling this off.

How can we be sure our love for Firefall is not being exploited?
When it comes to getting support for the game, I'll admit, maybe our love for Firefall is indeed a factor. But isn't that what drives us all? To see that game we loved back up and running? Firefall was, and remains, special to this day. That's a void that can never be filled. But we can try and get the next best thing in Em-8ER.

I'll be honest, I've never interacted with Mark during his Red5 days, so I can't be a judge of what he was.

But today, I can tell you that I am constantly in touch with Mark Kern who is passionate about this project, passionate about what he does. He wants this game to be real. He is putting in every effort possible to make this a success. He is learning new skills, reaching out to people, doing the hard yards to get this game on its feet.

And you don't have to take my word for it. He interacts with the community on a daily basis. And the community has a big say in the feature set for the game. He wants to build this game for the community and for himself.

I'd ask that you join the discord server and interact with him and the community to understand what drives us. He also is more than happy to answer questions, even about Red5. There are several who have come in being skeptical, accusative or with the intention of taking jabs at the community. Several have stayed behind to watch what happens.

There is genuine desire here. But staying aloof will not help you see it. Being skeptical is good. Being open-minded is even better.

If there is anything that helps dis-spell this distrust in Grummz, like a video, an open letter, a better explanation of the FF timeline, etc, that would be very much appreciated.
I'd suggest reading this:
https://forums.em8er.com/threads/whats-the-motivation-here.1171/#post-34518

I admit I have rambled on quite a bit. And I may not have put my thoughts out well enough. Being on the phone does not help matters. Hopefully I have given you an idea of what drives us and keeps us here despite the failures of firefall.

And I hope you would be a willing participant in the community. Noone here demands that you believe. We can only present what we see and hear on an everyday basis. It remains up to you to make your opinions and take decisions.
 
Last edited:
Jul 10, 2019
4
19
3
#25
@Mahdi I'm not on reddit, I'm just going off what I remember.
Skepticism is healthy for me because I backed black desert, no mans sky and a few other games that did not live up to expectations. (Though no mans sky has been getting better as of late.) But I also backed Warframe, a great success and am hoping that Em8er goes the same way. I am just wary of where I put my money and time.


Sorry if a lot of people come here and say the same things. I'm trying to get answers, not be accusatory.

@Maven Thank you for the post and the link to the thread. Again, I'm just looking for information before spending my tiny gaming budget on another dream.
The linked thread and the rambling pointed out a few things I did not know previously. The rambling was good!
 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
4,052
4,704
113
Island of Tofu
mechadrive.com
#26
What I am saying is: "They'll abandon it once the cash flow starts to recede, giving it up to another red-bean crazed pseudo-company." Or they get a better opportunity.

How can we be sure our love for Firefall is not being exploited?

@Pandagnome It's not the doubter's fault; we have good reason to be skeptical. And skepticism is a healthy part of developing anything.

If there is anything that helps dis-spell this distrust in Grummz, like a video, an open letter, a better explanation of the FF timeline, etc, that would be very much appreciated.
Everything that Maven said! +1

I have only felt cheated by one game and that was global agenda in my eyes thought this game would last much longer yes there were promises and then communication stopped player base reduced to the point it was a virtual grave yard.

When looking back at this certainly makes me sad and instead worked on tribes, smite.
Now smite seems to be their main focus, not into that kind of game and tribes wasn't my thing either
they made a mistake imo on global agenda it had so much potential to be amazing but that is that.

With Em8er its a different story hope that the games life could be like Wow/warframe.
I'd want it to be that game we all play and evolves, years and years pass by and you see how many places there are since the first time to how it was!

Right now its just dreaming and seeing the game develop slowly infront of us, and then that time where you see it all join up to control that mech and set off into a new adventure you'd be thinking i am so glad to have waited even though it was a pain in the ass but its here and now the fun can really happen!!!!!!!!!!


Grummz and the team do make videos i'd like a timeline too so that we could see where we are and where we can be in X amount of time. Even if the timeline is an approximation of the target.
Also the time line could be tweaked anytime in the case of any arising issues that may occur.

So yes i think visual representative of where we are at to where we want to be is nice.

https://trello.com/b/S0qcjuNv/em-8er

https://trello.com/b/hnY1ZPBv/em8er

I like this too, and if it had an approx date and time for each could give us a better idea on the future.


Doubt, fear is infectious it is floating about like a really bad case of the farts :O
I like to think that negativity draws more attention to what is good and from what i have seen there has been good progress not as fast i would of hoped but its progress.

So i am staying positive and i am sure and hope we all do too its going to be well worth it i believe that very much so.
 

Faeryl

Omni Ace
Greeter
Base Commander
Jul 26, 2016
375
1,202
93
Planet Earth, USA, East Coast
discord.gg
#28
@Nausical
MEGA AWESOMESAUCE EXPLANATIONS!!
@Maven , I don't know HOW you were able to write all that on your phone but, I LOVE IT!! I was nodding in agreement the entire time as I read your response, remarking at the complete thoughtfulness, time, and care with which you addressed each point of concern.

I'd like to add, after having been in the community on a daily basis for three years; and being able to talk and interact directly with Grummz, Ronyn, and some of the Dev Team, I have seen and felt the passion Grummz AND the team have for EM-8ER as well as passion for games in general. It is an incredible feeling and very infectious!



Lastly, an open mind is all we ask of new community members who come here from Firefall or any other game communities.


8 FOR EM-8ER :cool: :cool: :cool:
 

Sy

Active Member
Nov 16, 2018
99
168
33
syeedali.com
#29
After todays Discord Chief Chat, I'm feeling a lot more positive about the dev team. Their community involvement and plan to follow Warframe's dev path won me over a lot.
It's also looking more and more likely that an actual team will be on board before the Kickstarter, and not just the one guy, commissions and part-timers and interested people waiting in the wings.
 

Markolis

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Aug 5, 2017
53
130
33
UK
#30
' Always look on the bright side of life ..<whistles along>' and then sing along to this

Time is what gives us the golden apple. :cool: