Regarding recoil

[Dubbelklik]

This was a LARGE bone of contention with me back in the days.

We are (or I should say, we will be) piloting heavy/large/futuristic battle frames. For the love of all that is destructive and goes boom, please don't introduce recoil into the game!

First, there is no purpose for it, other than to make the screen shake and make some people nauseous and want to vomit (yeah, it was a real thing. Screen shake in Firefall actually made some people want to hurl).

Secondly, it has no place in a game set in the future, which should be using futuristic technology to hold our weapons steady.

Lastly, anti-recoil technology already exists in the real world today. It's one of the reasons the U.S. doesn't supply their troops with AK-47s. Yeah, they're cheap, but you can't reliably hit anything with them beyond 100m.

Discuss.

 

[MollilMayhem]

I totally agree!! No discussion necessary.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Screen shake bad, very bad, no likee.

Recoil on the other hand is a factor of Newtonian physics. Please comment on the following logic chain;

You wear a powered exoskeleton (frame) to augment your physical strength.

This allows you to carry a more powerful projectile weapon (say 20mm, or maybe even 30mm).

The larger projectile has more mass, and far more propellant.

Therefore, in accordance with Newton's Second Law, you will experience acceleration back along the axis of the barrel of the weapon. Due to the way that weapons are held this normally translates into the barrel rising. Muzzle devices are available to redirect the muzzle blast upwards to counter act this, but there are trade offs in using said devices, such as being blinded by the muzzle flash since the majority of it is now traveling upwards rather than out.

I'm in favor of having recoil in the game. It would make people fire short, controlled bursts rather than having a death grip on the trigger.

Obviously energy weapons would not have to deal with recoil.

 

[Ronyn]

I would personally like Ember to focus on the high speed/old school arena-esque style of shooting. Which means most weapons would not have much relevant recoil.

For me it's a matter of the most enjoyable style of gameplay for my personal preferences.

 

[Dubbelklik]

The larger projectile has more mass, and far more propellant.

Therefore, in accordance with Newton's Second Law, you will experience acceleration back along the axis of the barrel of the weapon. Due to the way that weapons are held this normally translates into the barrel rising. Muzzle devices are available to redirect the muzzle blast upwards to counter act this, but there are trade offs in using said devices, such as being blinded by the muzzle flash since the majority of it is now traveling upwards rather than out.

While the physics of said projectile are true, it is also true that these physics can be mitigated by the additional use of physics and science, which I must point out are in existence today. This is not future technology that has yet to be dreamed of. Anti-recoil technology is being used right now in 50mm sniper rifles (far greater than your example of 30mm) to eliminate as much recoil as possible.

With regards to your comment about energy weapons: They also had recoil in Firefall, even the Flame Thrower.

 

[Col. Kernel]

While the physics of said projectile are true, it is also true that these physics can be mitigated by the additional use of physics and science, which I must point out are in existence today. This is not future technology that has yet to be dreamed of. Anti-recoil technology is being used right now in 50mm sniper rifles (far greater than your example of 30mm) to eliminate as much recoil as possible.[/quote]

I think you mean 50 caliber sniper rifles. A 50mm round would be approx. 2" in diameter and the rifle itself would barely be man portable. A 50 caliber round is half an inch in diameter, 1/4 the size of a 50mm.

And my comments regarding muzzle devices still apply. That is the technology you're talking about.

With regards to your comment about energy weapons: They also had recoil in Firefall, even the Flame Thrower.

Yeah, well that was dumb. A flame thrower might have some minor kick, it is ejecting mass (burning liquid) and is technically not an energy weapon.

 

[DARKB1KE]

Gaming should start going into a non-realistic approach. DOOM has removed reloads completely, that's a start. Remove recoil and reload, more fun to be had.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Gaming should start going into a non-realistic approach. DOOM has removed reloads completely, that's a start. Remove recoil and reload, more fun to be had.

I disagree. All I hear about from the Run-n-Gun crowd is "skill". That's a load of garbage. Run-n-Gun is all about the twitch. I enjoyed OBFF in spite of this.

I am in favor of recoil for projectile weapons because it requires actual skill.

Projectile weapons should require ammo/reloads as well, but should be given some bonus to compensate for it.

Energy weapons should be powered by the frame and not need reloads, but the suit's power unit will have to be beefier to compensate for it.

There you have choices with trade offs. Those are the type of choices that make for a better game, when done well.

 

[CorwinM80]

Screen shake bad, very bad, no likee.

Recoil on the other hand is a factor of Newtonian physics. Please comment on the following logic chain;

You wear a powered exoskeleton (frame) to augment your physical strength.

This allows you to carry a more powerful projectile weapon (say 20mm, or maybe even 30mm).

The larger projectile has more mass, and far more propellant.

Therefore, in accordance with Newton's Second Law, you will experience acceleration back along the axis of the barrel of the weapon. Due to the way that weapons are held this normally translates into the barrel rising. Muzzle devices are available to redirect the muzzle blast upwards to counter act this, but there are trade offs in using said devices, such as being blinded by the muzzle flash since the majority of it is now traveling upwards rather than out.

I'm in favor of having recoil in the game. It would make people fire short, controlled bursts rather than having a death grip on the trigger.

Obviously energy weapons would not have to deal with recoil.

While what you say is true, you are neglecting to take into account the mass of the firearm (which does make a large difference in the recoil). Also the action of the bolt in semi-auto and full auto firearms also reduces the recoil. Take for example the .50 cal sniper rifle mentioned- the original was a single fire or even a bolt action rifle, and even with a tank break on the end (which does not expel and gasses upward) it was a pain to shoot. It was also very large and heavy in order to cut down recoil. The newer semi-auto rifles are about half as large due to the massive recoil spring that absorbs a large amount of the energy sent backwards. Add a tank break or one of the newer muzzle breaks and the recoil becomes very small.

 

[Ronyn]

I disagree. All I hear about from the Run-n-Gun crowd is "skill". That's a load of garbage. Run-n-Gun is all about the twitch. I enjoyed OBFF in spite of this.

I am in favor of recoil for projectile weapons because it requires actual skill.

There are various types of skill. Aim, evasion, compensating for recoil...all of those things are about skill.
What is commonly called "Twitch" is a just a reference to the speed in witch something is done, that something can very well be a skillful action.

A game can be skill based with or without a recoil mechanic.

 

[Luisedgm]

I don't mind big guns having recoil, but yeah the small/medium firearms don't need it

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

While what you say is true, you are neglecting to take into account the mass of the firearm (which does make a large difference in the recoil). Also the action of the bolt in semi-auto and full auto firearms also reduces the recoil. Take for example the .50 cal sniper rifle mentioned- the original was a single fire or even a bolt action rifle, and even with a tank break on the end (which does not expel and gasses upward) it was a pain to shoot. It was also very large and heavy in order to cut down recoil. The newer semi-auto rifles are about half as large due to the massive recoil spring that absorbs a large amount of the energy sent backwards. Add a tank break or one of the newer muzzle breaks and the recoil becomes very small.

That would be cool.
Ya know... being able to craft stuff like into game weapons that reduces these things.
The devs could just claim the reason there is recoil in the game is because the mech suit your wearing is devoting it's resources into the safety of flight due to the jetpack so they can't put recoil dampeners in there...

but what if you could craft your frame to have less jets and instead be able to have less recoil from your weapons instead of your weapons shouldering that burden. That way you can craft better weapons without worrying about the recoil stat.
Or crafting a frame that more recoil at the cost of better jetting capability.

Screen shake is stupid and causes sickness but you can still have recoil without it.

 

[Luisedgm]

I disagree. All I hear about from the Run-n-Gun crowd is "skill". That's a load of garbage. Run-n-Gun is all about the twitch. I enjoyed OBFF in spite of this.

I am in favor of recoil for projectile weapons because it requires actual skill.

Projectile weapons should require ammo/reloads as well, but should be given some bonus to compensate for it.

Energy weapons should be powered by the frame and not need reloads, but the suit's power unit will have to be beefier to compensate for it.

There you have choices with trade offs. Those are the type of choices that make for a better game, when done well.

I always had horrible reflexes and yet im usually above average in any FPS, there is more to skill than just "twitch"

 

[DARKB1KE]

There you have choices with trade offs. Those are the type of choices that make for a better game, when done well.

I didn't say there wasn't any tradeoffs
Oh well, I guess we shall see what the developers choose.

 

[TankHunter678]

Technically in Firefall 1.3 recoil already existed for many weapons. The slug shooting shotgun that dropped from BK was the most obvious example for this.

The thing is, the weapons that did have recoil did not have climbing recoil. Recoil was simulated in the weapon becoming more inaccurate the longer you fired, aka the reticle bloom. There was also no need for screen shake.

The powered suit is going to compensate for any recoil that would make the weapon unwieldy, it can make micro adjustments to prevent climbing recoil from being a thing, it does mean though that most accuracy loss is going to be caused by the weapon kicking back into the recoil compensation.

So we can have recoil in the game, but not the obnoxious recoil that everyone hates. Simple reticle bloom the longer you fire is enough. No need for screen shake or screen climbing.

This way recoil can be retained as a balancing metric for weapons. Without causing issues for the player like motion sickness or frustration.

 

[Boomshieko]

Gaming should start going into a non-realistic approach. DOOM has removed reloads completely, that's a start. Remove recoil and reload, more fun to be had.

Doom removed that as a call back to the original which didn't have it, because it was the first FPS. (I doubt they knew how to program that back then)

I'm not a fan of screen shake, but I am ok with cool downs/spin ups/reticle bloom/reticle shake(mini gun) You have to maintain some difficulty in maintaining sustained fire, or it simply becomes a "hold mouse button and run" game.

 

[Ronyn]

I'm not a fan of screen shake, but I am ok with cool downs/spin ups/reticle bloom/reticle shake(mini gun) You have to maintain some difficulty in maintaining sustained fire, or it simply becomes a "hold mouse button and run" game.

That is overselling a bit. I am more than fine with things like cooldowns/spin ups/reticle shake(mini gun) and what not in some cases.That said, the difficulty of combat comes from more than just how hard it is to maintain sustained fire.

For example: The latest doom is not an easier-to-beat combat experience than the variety of military shooters on the market these days. Difficulty to maintain sustained fore does not guarantee a difficult to beat game inherently, nor does easy to sustain fire guarantee an easy to beat combat model.

We have to remember than everything is relative to it's counter. If the player moves faster then so do the enemies. If the player can sustain fire easier then the enemies are built to be harder to keep the reticle on. etc.

Like I said before, skill can exist both with and without the recoil mechanic. There are real game examples that prove it to be true.

 

[Vedemin]

Weapons need recoil. ADS should have a recoil and hip-fire should also have one. Just don't make it extreme and don't make screen shake. Recoil in BF4 is a very good one although I'd prefer one from Hardline, more hardcore version
Also, all weapons that shoot projectiles or toxins should have recoil. That's because of 3rd Newtonian law.

 

[Boomshieko]

That is overselling a bit. I am more than fine with things like cooldowns/spin ups/reticle shake(mini gun) and what not in some cases.That said, the difficulty of combat comes from more than just how hard it is to maintain sustained fire.

For example: The latest doom is not an easier-to-beat combat experience than the variety of military shooters on the market these days. Difficulty to maintain sustained fore does not guarantee a difficult to beat game inherently, nor does easy to sustain fire guarantee an easy to beat combat model.

We have to remember than everything is relative to it's counter. If the player moves faster then so do the enemies. If the player can sustain fire easier then the enemies are built to be harder to keep the reticle on. etc.

Like I said before, skill can exist both with and without the recoil mechanic.

I'm speaking more to the tune of weapon/reticle recoil shake vs screen shake.

 

[DemonSlayer873]

Having recoil in game set in the future firstly doesnt make any sense and secondly it doesnt fit in a fast paced shooter with so much movement