Regarding recoil

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
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#81
@MattHunX Heh, I had to look that one up but yes you are essentially correct. Having a gun mounted in such a way means that the reciprocal force from firing a projectile will feed directly back into the arm rather than at an angle. Your arm will be pushed back, not up. This will still cause consecutive quick shots to have lower accuracy but will eliminate muzzle climb completely. Plus it fits in very well with how I interpret Marks statement:
  • Build and customize your own "omniframe" suit and weapons system. Customize them to your unique needs and the role you want to fulfill.

Notice he says weapon system, not weapons. A weapon would be handheld like in Firefall, but a system would indicate it is part of the suit not a standalone unit. This is also my reasoning for not having weapons crafted or picked up from NPC drops, because the weapon IS your suit. Hence my concept of mods to create the different weapon types.
 
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#82
@MattHunX Heh, I had to look that one up but yes you are essentially correct. Having a gun mounted in such a way means that the reciprocal force from firing a projectile will feed directly back into the arm rather than at an angle. Your arm will be pushed back, not up. This will still cause consecutive quick shots to have lower accuracy but will eliminate muzzle climb completely. Plus it fits in very well with how I interpret Marks statement:
  • Build and customize your own "omniframe" suit and weapons system. Customize them to your unique needs and the role you want to fulfill.

Notice he says weapon system, not weapon. A weapon would be handheld like in Firefall, but a system would indicate it is part of the suit not a standalone unit.
Well, I always go for recon classes. Have little to no interest in others and while in Firefall sniper rifles and charge rifles are quite to my liking, I also recently started to play an Electron with the Shock Rail that is essentially and wrist/forearm mounted cannon with precision shots for short mid-range. Would love it if similar weapons made it to Ember.
 
Aug 3, 2016
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#83
First, there is no purpose for it, other than to make the screen shake and make some people nauseous and want to vomit (yeah, it was a real thing. Screen shake in Firefall actually made some people want to hurl).
I'd just like to toss in I was one of those people who got nausea and migranes from the incessant screen shake. After an hour or two of playing I'd have to lie down until my head stopped feeling like a railroad spike was being wedged into the side of it.
 

Ronyn

Commander
Staff member
Community Manager
Director of Marketing and Community
Jul 26, 2016
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#84
Personally my main concern is that Ember's combat model reflects a more fast paced, arena-esque, old school shooter style.

However recoil fits into that is fine as long as it doesn't become an "aim down sights" style game if you know what I mean.
 
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Zeful

New Member
Aug 1, 2016
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#85
Personally my main concern is that Ember's combat model reflects a more fast paced, arena-esque, old school shooter style.

However recoil fits into that is fine as long as it doesn't become an "aim down sights" style game if you know what I mean.
Then the best recoil scheme would probably be aerial kickback, and very little spread and jitter. Since sufficient aerial kickback will provide dynamic adjustment to aim based on the player's flightpath relative to target and their line of aim, and allow high powered weapons to act as ammo fueled air-dodges for lighter frames, increasing the both the importance of weapon choice, and the skill-ceiling of play.
 
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Likes: EvilKitten
Jul 26, 2016
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#86
Ember's combat model

However recoil fits into that is fine as long as it doesn't become an "aim down sights" style game if you know what I mean.
do we actually have a combat model? without anything playable, i don't think there can be, unless there's a lot of planning that happened that just isn't written down clearly.
maybe there is, idunno.

i can only speak for myself, but i don't think anyone is suggesting that. (nor are the systems i've talked about in any way connected to stop and pop shooters, cover shooters, or whatever else)
 

Ronyn

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Jul 26, 2016
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#87
do we actually have a combat model? without anything playable, i don't think there can be, unless there's a lot of planning that happened that just isn't written down clearly.
maybe there is, idunno.

i can only speak for myself, but i don't think anyone is suggesting that. (nor are the systems i've talked about in any way connected to stop and pop shooters, cover shooters, or whatever else)
eh? I'm not suggesting there is an existing combat model or that anyone necessarily suggested an aim down sights style combat model. I'm simply voicing my preferences for how the game's combat model should be built.
 

Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
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#88
you eventually learn how to operate the game and you can perform reliably.
inversely, if your shot consists of point at him and click on him, what do you gain from that?
1. You can't perform reliably if your output is determined randomly
2. I never said point and click. Did you forget my position or are you intentionally strawmanning?

without any of these systems every Weapon is nearly equally effective at every task, which is in effect a game with very little Skill involved. RE: this is not an insult, this is a statement.
Go learn how to play AFPS'. You can have multiple roles without resorting to RNG (though some games still do, generally for spawn weapons that end up being piss-poor or overpowered in team modes)

clicking on people or slowly pulling your mouse down does not represent Skill.
Congrats for attacking a position that isn't my own

being able to place yourself in the appropriate location that you should be at, using your Tools at the right times, moving quickly when you should and aiming accurately when you should, outplaying your opponent strategically, Et Cetera is how you play Skillfully.
All of those are present in the system I proposed

RE: moving slower does not make you an easier target. consistently moving slower does. your movement speed being more varied strategically - like a Skilled Player would be doing, makes you the hardest to hit of all. because you're harder to track - because your movement rate is sporadic.
If I know you have to slow down for an attack, I can anticipate that. Moving from cover to cover quickly and efficiently presents a much harder target to hit

i've already clearly explained that these systems aren't there to represent reality(because none of it is, guns represented realistically makes for a fairly flat game), they are there to make Shooting more than Duck Hunt where you can move.
Again, Duck Hunt is a hitscan game. I've not once proposed that every gun fire like a Q3 rail

ofcourse not, but you also don't accidentally lose either. both of you take your Railgun shot at the same time (because that's everyones' Primary Weapon), and whoever shot a couple Milliseconds earlier is who wins.
You wanna test that theory out?
I can tell you've spent next to no time in the game, because even low-tier players (I'm not particularly high up the ladder myself) understand that the rail is not the be-all and end-all of duel. In QL, the lightning gun is the primary weapon. In CPM, the rocket launcher is the primary weapon. In OG Quake (QuakeNet or QuakeWorld) there is no railgun
You lose in Quake because you fucked up. An opponent can be placed in a slightly less awful scenario after death dependent on spawn, but depending on the spawn system you can influence that as well. Everything past your starting position after every frag is ultimately determined by player actions

if, you missed Shots due to Spread, that means you weren't within the Parameters of that Weapon. because you had no Trigger Discipline and were just clicking on someone as much as possible.
It means that the parameters of a weapon are defined by stats moreso than skill. In CPM, given enough skill, I could, in theory, melt someone with the Plasma Gun at range. It's not going to happen unless they travel in a straight line due to travel time and the level of tracking required, but should I fire the gun, it's my skill that determines the hits (unless you're playing at extreme ranges, in which case there's enough deviation in shots to make a difference) not a dice roller attached to idtech3

the exact systems i'm suggesting to basically copy/paste shamelessly, still lets your... Machine Pistol hit from a Kilometer away. but only at a much lower effective Rate of Fire than it's capable of. this limits the effectiveness of your Weapon at that Range, because you're not supposed to be using it there.
Your weapon effectiveness can be limited outside of dice rolls

you can still create Black Swans with it like you want to, but such events don't determine the outcome of a session. they just don't. like i said, i'll make you win 1/100 times but you already lost plenty.
that's why Competitive Tournaments have many stages, so that regardless of what game it is, to ensure that Black Swans don't skew outcomes. because even in your beloved Arena Shooters, there are Black Swans.
Being slightly out of optimal range is not a black swan scenario. Being forced to engage at range due to incoming fire is not a black swan scenario. This is an open world game and you wont always get to choose your range. A squad with a metric asston of firepower out in the open is not going to be counterable when your options are short range spray and pray weaponry. If your solution to that is "don't use or make short range weapons" then we're massively cutting down on viable options for combat
And having more matches doesn't decrease the chances of that last shot being down to luck. At best you'll get a lucky spawn in CPM and grab yellow before the other guy gets there... which is a whole extra rocket's worth of damage. After you've been fragged, your opponent should be grabbing red and mega, meaning he's going to have a 50 armor and 100 health stack on you, with his armor affecting a 1:3 hp:armor damage ratio to your 1:2. If he fucks up you can swing it and get a few conversion frags, but it's not going to make that much of a difference otherwise.

Also you keep talking about unpredictability. That should come from the target. You could also add gun-based unpredictability by having it randomly jam, but I somewhat doubt you'd consider suddenly not being able to fire a matter of skill.
 

Necryel

New Member
Jul 30, 2016
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#89
Recoil was again, one of the BIG mistakes in FF, adding it did NOTHING but create artificial difficulty in the of the fact that they couldn't properly program a half decent AI into enemies so they needed to frustrate players with redundant accuracy penalties.

Second, I'd like to point out that ADS on everything is utterly absurd. ADS has it's place on SOME weapons: rifles, high velictiy projectile weapons with range, but that's it. Low velocity weapons travel in a very observable arc, ADS significantly reduces accuracy against distant targets as it reduces field of view and prevents you from seeing if the target changes direction, etc. ADS on the engineers was positively detrimental and completely unnessary on a weapon with such a short range. And need I remind you of the catastrophe that ADS played on Assaults and Firecats such that NO ONE EVER USED IT on those frames and the minimal boost to damage simply was not worth the risk, aggrivation, movement penalty. Exotic altfires was one of the great things about early Firefall combat.

Now back to Recoil. We have shock absorbing barrels, sliding counterweights, and numerous other means of currently mitigating recoil in modern weapons. There is little to no doubt that by the time technology reaches the level required to make Ember possible, that such thing will be outdated and completely ineffective compared to whatever recoil suppression technology will be available by then. let alone the added strength and computer calculation in an Omniframe's neuro interface and FCS to help it account for any degree of recoils and use the frames added strength to help stabilize the weapon even further. There is just no justification for recoil to exist in relation to small arms, hand guns, and rifles of any kind as the forces and masses involved will be small and easily overcome. Recoil, at it's core is merely a means to force burstfire in automatic weapons, be creating an outlandish accuracy penalty whenever using fully automatic weapons in a fully automatic fashion. If I wsih to be relagated to burst fire, I'll go and get a burst rifle. Recoil simply has no place in any futuristic shooter when using handheld weapons, period. Now, stick much higher caliber weapons with heavier mass projections on a vehicle or a mech, and you can make the argument that recoil belongs on those because the weapons being used and mounted on such are heavier and more powerful than what the recoil suppression tech of the future can handle at that point, as you are talking about much larger masses and much higher forces, but in any hand held weapon? The bullets are small by comparison, the force to launch them also puny by comparison and so would be well within the limits of technology of the level to which we are proposing to talk about.
 
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TankHunter678

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2016
369
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#90
Recoil was again, one of the BIG mistakes in FF, adding it did NOTHING but create artificial difficulty in the of the fact that they couldn't properly program a half decent AI into enemies so they needed to frustrate players with redundant accuracy penalties.
Recoil existed in Firefall since the very beginning. Primarily in the form of Randomized Cone of Fire and Climbing/Descending. Climbing (and descending) recoil was removed from most weapons, randomized cone of fire never was.

Screen shake was never part of the recoil system to my knowledge until 1.6.

What 1.6 did was bring in grossly exaggerated recoil by making the existing recoil systems worse and adding in screen shake. Everything got screen shake, everything got Climbing/Descending, and the Randomized Cone of Fire was made worse.

If anything it was because they were going to try to bring back PvP that the recoil got so drastically bad that it made people sick. Alt fires were removed also for PvP. Well that is what happens when the PvP team that actually knew how to make shooter pvp has been gone for years and you got to work with what you got.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#91
eh? I'm not suggesting there is an existing combat model or that anyone necessarily suggested an aim down sights style combat model. I'm simply voicing my preferences for how the game's combat model should be built.
okay. i read it as that there had been a model established already.