PvP, how it could work?

[SomeUnregPunk]

Given the current concept of the game I really don't see how PVP fits into the open world. I mean it's us against them. Why do we need to PVP each other?

Well if they made it so that in the PvP zone there is a special mineral/item that can be mined only after many waves against really strong mobs/Kaju (much stronger than the ones outside the PvP zone) and also make the item steal-able by using a rival team's mining robot as the successful robot and team is heading home then you got a goal.

Then you got weird but a bit interesting game. Teams of players could temporarily ally so that they can beat the wave/mining game and then free-for-all to steal the item for their team. Which might require a bit of finesse since the successful team still has to lead their robot out of the PvP zone to non PvP zone and to their home base. That might be hard since Kaju/mobs will be attacking them even more than usual because of the special mineral/item.

Of course the special item would give some sort of unique research potential or help greatly with the world unlocking/building.
For example: You want constantly flying mecha with beefier gun? Then you need a certain quantity of high grade item from the PvP zone for research and crafting.

And if they make the item/researched goods sellable then PvP teams will gain a market for their expertise. So players that don't like PvP can still get items found in PvP zones.

 

[Rocket]

Given the current concept of the game I really don't see how PVP fits into the open world. I mean it's us against them. Why do we need to PVP each other? Other then for sport of course.... IMO FireFall PVP was very good in the works. 5v5 on pvp maps. All skills should be accessible from the PVE skill-wheel in PVP, just nerfed. Everyone has the same level skills. I don't see why with a bit of time we could have 1v1, 2v2, 5v5.

Fuckin nailed it. Sport or training. Or fuck right off and find a PVP centric game.

Well if they made it so that in the PvP zone there is a special mineral ....

Firefall did that. It failed most of the dedicated player base. Let's not fail them again.

 

[EvilKitten]

I could see PvP from a Lore standpoint as training. Replace your real weapons with special training weapons, have sensors on your omniframe and have an AR overlay. The Opposing Force would have transparent Tsi-hu outlines to shoot at. Quickcrete walls with AR visuals (slightly transparent) over them etc. If you made it look like an actual training simulator it would be able to have it's own PvP arena while still fitting in the lore.

Not that I am endorsing this or anything but I can admit it would fit into the universe. Every army must train after all and usually it's against your own guys.

 

[Dreamin]

That being said though, more casual or less skilled players would be very much against the idea of fighting another player in a PVE game regardless of how it was done, and I could see how the gatecrashing reasoning comes about.

Glad it is seen that having even a single Non-AI enemy in a PVE game changes it's genre to PVP.

Well if they made it so that in the PvP zone there is a special mineral/item that can be mined only after many waves against really strong mobs/Kaju (much stronger than the ones outside the PvP zone)

"Item" must have zero effect on PVE and provide player with ZERO advantages over players opting out of PVP.

and also make the item steal-able by using a rival team's mining robot as the successful robot and team is heading home then you got a goal.

Making the item steal-able only adds to the possibility of player domination, abuse, exploit issues.

Of course the special item would give some sort of unique research potential or help greatly with the world unlocking/building.

NO, NO, NO. The game is PVE and should not be affected by anything from a PVP realm.

For example: You want constantly flying mecha with beefier gun? Then you need a certain quantity of high grade item from the PvP zone for research and crafting of PVP only items.

And if they make the item/researched goods sellable then PvP teams will gain a market for their expertise. So players that don't like PvP can still get items found in PvP zones.

NO. If a player wants to participate in PVP they do their own work to get there, not by buying their way in! Besides that, this method of marketing the crafted PVP items for others seems VERY opportunistic which will surely just end up being a wide open door for exploits... it is also a very quick way to the game titled as Pay2Win (which only attracts that toxic element.)

I could see PvP from a Lore standpoint as training. Replace your real weapons with special training weapons, have sensors on your omniframe and have an AR overlay. The Opposing Force would have transparent Tsi-hu outlines to shoot at. Quickcrete {Concrete walls; quickcrete is just a name brand that produces many varieties of concrete} walls with AR visuals (slightly transparent) over them etc. If you made it look like an actual training simulator it would be able to have it's own PvP arena while still fitting in the lore.

Not that I am endorsing this or anything but I can admit it would fit into the universe. Every army must train after all and usually it's against your own guys.

The training option is fantastic! With the news about the guie suit chroma mechanics it could be a sort of laser tag with the Razer chroma scheme to coordinate color by team/alive/dead and it be clearly visible for Razer users.



Edited to correct mis-labeled quotes

 

[Grummz]

Well, one thing that *might* work is a take on the Battle Royale mode. In Firefall we had a test PvP map called "collapsing melding pocket" which was a shrinking area of melding and a last man standing type thing. Given how popular battle royale is, I'm sort of kicking myself for not pushing to release it.

The problem with PvP in Em-8ER is that players abilities and weapons can be anything, and customized for PvE which may not be fun when used against another player.

But we can have a mode where its a BR type map, and a shrinking terraforming bubble. You start with your frame choice (light/med/heavy), and there are free resources scattered on the map (no thumping req).

You run around collecting these resources and then insta-crafting them into weapons and abilities, a fixed set or recipes that we deem "balanced" for PvP. That way you start to equip weapons and abilities as you play.

You play individually, or in teams or with your armies.

This *might* work, and it's a take on an original, unreleased Firefall PvP map mode.

 

[Mahdi]

As long as there is never any cross over between pve and PvP....

I know I can avoid all PvP and not sign up for it. Internet games will always have an avenue for griefing players. Can't be fully removed, but zero interaction between pve and PvP helps.

 

[Grummz]

As long as there is never any cross over between pve and PvP....

I know I can avoid all PvP and not sign up for it. Internet games will always have an avenue for griefing players. Can't be fully removed, but zero interaction between pve and PvP helps.

Yes, it would be a separate game mode, if we did it at all.

 

[Drakin5]

One of the main problems with Em8er’s classless take on roles, weapons and abilities is that you can build any frame that is within the bounds of the game rules and mechanics yet stupidly overpowered when put into actual practice. This is known as min-maxing.

Take for example the Mammoth and the Teleport Beacon. The Mammoth’s slow movement speed was mitigated with that ability so that it’s not a chore to run from point A to B.

In Em8er, your CQC build heavy omniframe can equip powerful servos and gliders to rival that of a medium one. Add self repairing passives, gap closers and a cloaking/stealth ability and you have a frame that follows this tactic: run in>destroy enemy frame>run away; let self heal/repair kick in>repeat

 

[DinsdaleP13]

Yes, it would be a separate game mode, if we did it at all.

Well, that is what the Holmgangs were. Which is one of the reasons I don't get the push back against PvP. What you and @EvilKitten have said is what was the lore reason of PvP in Firefall. I don't get why so many people are against it in a spiritual successor. Maybe they just hate competition?

*Edit: It's like people forgot that Firefall was supposed to be an e-sport competitive game. What the fuck?

 

[Degiance]

Only times i have actually seen PvP as good thing was with the foam swords toy in WoW where everyone could bonk each other 3 times for a small serpentine display. No reward or special cosmetics just pure fun of being the last guy up with the foam sword as everyone elses foam sword exploded.
But moment you reward people from attacking other people they get strange idea in to their head that includes attacking them verbally to psyche them out as that's part of the "sport" even though it's one of the most unsportsman like behavior you can do.
(I have seen enough friends leave a game becouse of a PvP goon squad harrassing them for not playing PvP. So i have a bias ^^ )
PvP hasn't worked and it will never work as long as long as people are involved. If i can say it harshly like that.

 

[Terib.Shadow]

Only times i have actually seen PvP as good thing was with the foam swords toy in WoW where everyone could bonk each other 3 times for a small serpentine display. No reward or special cosmetics just pure fun of being the last guy up with the foam sword as everyone elses foam sword exploded.
But moment you reward people from attacking other people they get strange idea in to their head that includes attacking them verbally to psyche them out as that's part of the "sport" even though it's one of the most unsportsman like behavior you can do.
(I have seen enough friends leave a game becouse of a PvP goon squad harrassing them for not playing PvP. So i have a bias ^^ )
PvP hasn't worked and it will never work as long as long as people are involved. If i can say it harshly like that.

I have to support degiance there, only PvP that was remotely fun and completely friendly i've seen is Warhammer : the end times - Vermintide's Bar Brawl, where you need to drink the mug of Bugman's at the counter and then you can fist fight others that also drank it until they fall uncouncious, then they'd need to drink another one to get back in the fight, i'd love to see something like that in the EM-8ER bars.

Every other game i've played which had PvP automatically got a lot more toxic, even when they were separated. Honestly, for that alone i'd encourage not placing any kind of PvP that compels agressiveness towards other players, in the way degiance said it.

 

[Grummz]

Seems like most of you are talking about "in world" PvP, which I don't see happening. Too much of what we do is customized/balanced for PvE feel. If we ever did PvP, it would be it's own mode, clearly split from the main game.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

I have to support degiance there, only PvP that was remotely fun and completely friendly i've seen is Warhammer : the end times - Vermintide's Bar Brawl, where you need to drink the mug of Bugman's at the counter and then you can fist fight others that also drank it until they fall uncouncious, then they'd need to drink another one to get back in the fight, i'd love to see something like that in the EM-8ER bars.

Every other game i've played which had PvP automatically got a lot more toxic, even when they were separated. Honestly, for that alone i'd encourage not placing any kind of PvP that compels agressiveness towards other players, in the way degiance said it.

F*CK YEAH. A BAR FIGHT IS SOMETHING WE NEED.
DRINK ALCOHOL TO ACTIVATE BRAWL MODE AND YOU GET 3 DIFFERENT SKILL, BOTTLE SMACK, CHAIR SLAP AND FIST KISS.
WHOEVER LEAVES THE BAR OR GO DOWN LOSE.

 

[Degiance]

I'm only speaking of personal expriences from WoW. PvP wasn't always toxic in WoW in Vanilla i felt it had a mental balance of sorts on how well PvE and PvP went together at times. (So well at times that you had to be good at both if you wanted to progress or improve your character)
Then in Burning Crusade with the introduction of arenas and pure PvP gear it started to become hostile, aggressive and intense. Then in WOTLK it just exploded as Blizzard started hacking and slashing things that made classes special in PvE and PvP creating huge imbalances between classes and specs downright breaking them at times. As that was happening people blamed each other and Blizzard, as everyone just started hating each other all of the sudden. (I mean it was bad before but each time a PvP server went down for repairs they rushed a RP servers to harrass roleplayers and accuse them from god knows what. Lost few dozen friends that way.)
After that each patch and each expansion brought out new imbalances and what class or spec is the most OP and really limited the playability of the game as people started focusing on the elitist jerk method of creating a character instead of playing with the style they developed themselves as they played. (So yeah again i lost alot of people never to be seen again, not to mention how the game essentially lost it soul. If a player cannot create their own playstyle what's the point of playing anymore? New look and little stats upgrade? Personal growth was the best reward you could get with your own playstyle and when that is gone. Only greedy people remain.)
In Mist of Pandaria and Cataclysm it was so bad that there was actual whole PvP guilds that would bully and harrass people who liked anything beyond PvP or even if they tried to do anything beyond PvP. (GM's didn't do anything about it as those guilds could do damage for months on end causing people quit the game or worse yet start doing what the PvP'ers were doing before they finally banned those guys.)
Like god forbid if you had a conversation in the open with a friend talking about Blizzcon and what they spoke about fixed arena fights and how their planning to prevent that. I had a whole PvP guild chasing after me for months trying to ruin my game time as they didn't like what they said at Blizzcon and somehow it was my fault for even mentioning the fact that bunch of the PvP'ers in MoP and Cata were just fixed fighters with no actual skill in PvP as most of them were carried aswell.
7 years of that i don't want to exprience again. I don't want to see precious few friends leave every week, i don't wish to see complete utter whackjobs to be rewarded for being worst possible player they can be, i don't have the energy or the money to go trough that once again.
PvP'ers don't know how to draw a line between a friendly player or a hostile player as all players are hostile to them and they don't know how to quit PvP unless the very game is shutdown. (Personal exprience on this was how i killed this orc hunter on my night elf druid. He comes to my server and starts stalking me and trying to spam me. Then there was that PvP guild that tried to follow me around and harrass people that talked to me trying to isolate me from my friends and guild mates, which is a real dirtbag near predatory move but then again i can't really fault them from using the tricks that were forced in to their head with constant PvP where they do nothing but pile on one guy at a time then get rewarded for that behavior.)

I don't mind the aggression mind you. But when PvP is turned to something that nurtures the worst aspects of someones personality, it's like that saying about the two wolves, you grow the one you feed.

*edit: I felt i had to add that on those 7 years there wasn't a single day where i was given a chance to just sit down and play WoW without being forced in to a fight with a PvP'er. They would spam duels, insults and then try to t-bag me when i tried to sit on my usual spot while stalking me or worse yet my friends. As much as i enjoyed the 3 years of WoW that i had in Vanilla WoW and the PvP there, those 7 years convinced me otherwise that PvP will never work again as the people in PvP won't ever work with anyone beyond PvP again. (Yes total of 10 years)
Those nice days of PvP are gone.

F*CK YEAH. A BAR FIGHT IS SOMETHING WE NEED.
DRINK ALCOHOL TO ACTIVATE BRAWL MODE AND YOU GET 3 DIFFERENT SKILL, BOTTLE SMACK, CHAIR SLAP AND FIST KISS.
WHOEVER LEAVES THE BAR OR GO DOWN LOSE.

I wouldn't mind a proper bar brawl mode.

 

[EvilKitten]

I don't get why so many people are against it in a spiritual successor. Maybe they just hate competition?

Why don't you just skip straight to the carebear quips, if labeling people makes you feel better then go ahead. There are many reasons why someone might not like PvP, hating competition is a possibility but by no means certain.

For me per personally it's not about competition, I am actually very competitive. I PvP'd in Star Trek Online and I played Age of Conan (pvp server) briefly back in the day. Problem for me is that for some reason anytime I enter a PvP scenario my body goes into crazy fight or flight mode and I get so much adrenaline in my system that within minutes my hands are shaking too much to use a keyboard and I can't sit in my seat. After awhile of that happening you can imagine my enjoyment for the genre quickly waned.

(work meeting time, will finish later)

 

[Brezals]

Seems like most of you are talking about "in world" PvP, which I don't see happening. Too much of what we do is customized/balanced for PvE feel. If we ever did PvP, it would be it's own mode, clearly split from the main game.

You can do this:

When you plan a next feature for the game after it is "done", and you feel open world PvP is definetly the most fun and interesting content that CAN be released next. Is when you should even start to think about a potential there.

 

[Pandagnome]

I still want a super mario kart/star wars pod racer mech pvp mode

For eample there are arena race battles on the outer boarders you start off with a poop mech
its a way to pass the time too earning points to get pvp mech skins etc

points earned by damaging the opposition mech and which position you are in the race.

Perhaps mech classes have their own race class e.g. light class would have only light class mech racers

Sometimes A.i's could make appearances like a kaiju warlord and disrupt the race so all difference set a side and
must stop the kaiju warlord or else kaiju warlord racer will wipe each one!!!

 

[Dreamin]

@Grummz ; TY! for making it clear that the elements would be kept seperate IF pvp is introduced to the environment.

I'm only speaking of personal expriences from WoW. PvP wasn't always toxic in WoW in Vanilla i felt it had a mental balance of sorts on how well PvE and PvP went together at times. (So well at times that you had to be good at both if you wanted to progress or improve your character)
Then in Burning Crusade with the introduction of arenas and pure PvP gear it started to become hostile, aggressive and intense. Then in WOTLK it just exploded as Blizzard started hacking and slashing things that made classes special in PvE and PvP creating huge imbalances between classes and specs downright breaking them at times. As that was happening people blamed each other and Blizzard, as everyone just started hating each other all of the sudden. (I mean it was bad before but each time a PvP server went down for repairs they rushed a RP servers to harrass roleplayers and accuse them from god knows what. Lost few dozen friends that way.)
After that each patch and each expansion brought out new imbalances and what class or spec is the most OP and really limited the playability of the game as people started focusing on the elitist jerk method of creating a character instead of playing with the style they developed themselves as they played. (So yeah again i lost alot of people never to be seen again, not to mention how the game essentially lost it soul. If a player cannot create their own playstyle what's the point of playing anymore? New look and little stats upgrade? Personal growth was the best reward you could get with your own playstyle and when that is gone. Only greedy people remain.)
In Mist of Pandaria and Cataclysm it was so bad that there was actual whole PvP guilds that would bully and harrass people who liked anything beyond PvP or even if they tried to do anything beyond PvP. (GM's didn't do anything about it as those guilds could do damage for months on end causing people quit the game or worse yet start doing what the PvP'ers were doing before they finally banned those guys.)
Like god forbid if you had a conversation in the open with a friend talking about Blizzcon and what they spoke about fixed arena fights and how their planning to prevent that. I had a whole PvP guild chasing after me for months trying to ruin my game time as they didn't like what they said at Blizzcon and somehow it was my fault for even mentioning the fact that bunch of the PvP'ers in MoP and Cata were just fixed fighters with no actual skill in PvP as most of them were carried aswell.
7 years of that i don't want to exprience again. I don't want to see precious few friends leave every week, i don't wish to see complete utter whackjobs to be rewarded for being worst possible player they can be, i don't have the energy or the money to go trough that once again.
PvP'ers don't know how to draw a line between a friendly player or a hostile player as all players are hostile to them and they don't know how to quit PvP unless the very game is shutdown. (Personal exprience on this was how i killed this orc hunter on my night elf druid. He comes to my server and starts stalking me and trying to spam me. Then there was that PvP guild that tried to follow me around and harrass people that talked to me trying to isolate me from my friends and guild mates, which is a real dirtbag near predatory move but then again i can't really fault them from using the tricks that were forced in to their head with constant PvP where they do nothing but pile on one guy at a time then get rewarded for that behavior.)

I don't mind the aggression mind you. But when PvP is turned to something that nurtures the worst aspects of someones personality, it's like that saying about the two wolves, you grow the one you feed.

*edit: I felt i had to add that on those 7 years there wasn't a single day where i was given a chance to just sit down and play WoW without being forced in to a fight with a PvP'er. They would spam duels, insults and then try to t-bag me when i tried to sit on my usual spot while stalking me or worse yet my friends. As much as i enjoyed the 3 years of WoW that i had in Vanilla WoW and the PvP there, those 7 years convinced me otherwise that PvP will never work again as the people in PvP won't ever work with anyone beyond PvP again. (Yes total of 10 years)
Those nice days of PvP are gone.



I wouldn't mind a proper bar brawl mode.

^^Without edits... ya believe that...

I mostly resemble your sentiment, cheers to you bro, I have had similar but different experiences as well.
[off topic] I can't even remember the name of the game that threw me off pvp. It was one of the medieval oriental quest games with guilds and separated areas, central battle zones etc. After a certain level everything involved quests in the pvp zone, which involved the infamous gate camper issues that in turn fed the guilds as protection from gate camping/spawn killing. To top that, first if you joined a guild you then had 1 hr of guild required duties (questing/collecting/donating) before you could do your own thing without being removed, or if you did not join one (this is what got me) the guilds in your "realm" would swarm you and prevent you from doing the npc/AI questing/collecting by killing and collecting everything in a vast area around you before you could get to it just because you wouldn't join a guild. [/off topic]

I don't mind the aggression mind you. But when PvP is turned to something that nurtures the worst aspects of someones personality, it's like that saying about the two wolves, you grow the one you feed.

Well stated.


I get it, many others want be this guy... even just once...

Yet most of them don't want it just once... and the extents some are willing to go to, to get an advantage over another being....

 

[Dreamin]

Well, that is what the Holmgangs were. Which is one of the reasons I don't get the push back against PvP. What you and @EvilKitten have said is what was the lore reason of PvP in Firefall. I don't get why so many people are against it in a spiritual successor. Maybe they just hate competition?

*Edit: It's like people forgot that Firefall was supposed to be an e-sport competitive game. What the fuck?

Holmgangs were a failure, the area in sunken harbor was avoided by players like the plague.
I will probably mis-state it slightly, there was not a true lore reason for PVP in FF, it was reasoned into the game to test its viability to the extent of at least four different released/beta'd renditions that I remember. The original sentiment was that there were already rival human/AI why couldn't there be rival player/clans? But to your misunderstanding I would refer you back to "spiritual", the spirit of FF was never PVP; then to "successor", meaning succeeding after the former. While there are many avenues to success, when the former (FF) has already shown where the spigot is, why try and dig a well?

 

[Degiance]

@Grummz ; TY! for making it clear that the elements would be kept seperate IF pvp is introduced to the environment.


^^Without edits... ya believe that...

I mostly resemble your sentiment, cheers to you bro, I have had similar but different experiences as well.
[off topic] I can't even remember the name of the game that threw me off pvp. It was one of the medieval oriental quest games with guilds and separated areas, central battle zones etc. After a certain level everything involved quests in the pvp zone, which involved the infamous gate camper issues that in turn fed the guilds as protection from gate camping/spawn killing. To top that, first if you joined a guild you then had 1 hr of guild required duties (questing/collecting/donating) before you could do your own thing without being removed, or if you did not join one (this is what got me) the guilds in your "realm" would swarm you and prevent you from doing the npc/AI questing/collecting by killing and collecting everything in a vast area around you before you could get to it just because you wouldn't join a guild. [/off topic]


Well stated.


I get it, many others want be this guy... even just once...

Yet most of them don't want it just once... and the extents some are willing to go to, to get an advantage over another being....

Yeah, the topic kinda strikes a vein and i couldn't help but to bleed on the keyboard to reference Hank Moody a lil' bit.
Thanks ^^

That video reminds me of going to the Zone, i know people try to chase after it and the temporary high it gives people but there is one better than that and the good feeling from it doesn't disapear.

I'm only sorry that i couldn't find another reference than this. But it will have to do.

I mean there is nothing like playing together with people you know and trust and when it hits that direct drive zone where you don't need to speak to your team-mates everyone just knows what to do from the dozens and maybe hundreds of times you have repeated a certain scenario or event together. That lone wolf zoning out looses it's meaning, it's a shame people still applaud it on gaming events like:"His zoning out!?" as rest of his team is getting kicked around like rag dolls.

(In WoW i used to play a feral druid and my friend named Flamecurse was a demonlogy warlock and Minggus was a frost mage. It was abit like a unholy trinity combo now that i think about it. We were able to three man most of the vanilla dungeons up to lvl 60 while we literally rolled the dice on who would get to try to solo which boss. )

Now i feel like i have said everything i wish to say regarding this thread/topic. ^^