PvP, how it could work?

Discussion in 'General Ember Discussion' started by Darsh, Mar 13, 2018 at 6:03 PM.

  1. Darsh

    Darsh New Member

    So, I’ve been thinking about this game a lot lately. I’m pretty excited with what the game promises to be. But even though their is currently no plan to add pvp to the game. I would still like to discuss how pvp could be included post launch.

    Firstly. Let’s talk about pvp’s relation to toxicity. It’s true that games that boast open world pvp will often see gankers and griefers and ppl who just generally like to talk smack. Which will usually become server wide drama and will increase the level of toxicity.

    How can we prevent that from happening? There’s a few ways in my opinion. Firstly, players of opposing sides could simply be unable to speak to each other or see each other’s names. Their names could simply be their omniframe class such as “Light enemy frame”.

    There could also have no open world pvp at all, like FFXIV:ARR, and go strictly the battlegrounds / arena pvp route. FFXIV went even further by having everyone participating have equivalent stats that are not affected by gear. This makes it fair for everyone playing and ensures that coordination and skill and not gear score determine the match. Now I’m no saying that this is the best approach. FFXIV is not exactly well known for its pvp but it’s still a fun mini game if you want a change of pace, and the rewards could just be cosmetic items and even resources to craft / upgrade your omniframe.

    Another fun pvp type that could be added is castle sieges (base sieges) type pvp like Archeage or Lineage 2, but where the pvp is still not open world, but limited to a specific zone. In this zone, there could still be enemy AI spawning and invading and players could still go out and do thumping, but instead of everyone contributing to build bases, there would be specific areas designated for guild bases where there are large and dense concentrations of resources. Initially, these bases could be heavily fortified enemy AI bases that would require a large guild with great coordination to successfully siege and conquer it to claim that resource rich land as their own. Then the guild would have to build their own base and defences by spending their guild resources. Capturing a base would be no easy task and would also require the attacking guild to invest resources in siege equipment.. maybe giants siege mechs or large artillery tanks. Also, a guild wishing to attack another guilds base would have to meet certain requirements. For example, they cannot attack another guild’s base if they already own a base of their own. ( 1 base per guild only). Perhaps all guilds who want to attack a certain base would have to participate in a silent auction to bid for the right to siege the base. Then, the guild who wins the silent auction would be able to partake into the siege battle on siege night and attempt to claim the base for themselves.

    On siege night, once a week, I imagine something like Archeage would be great where there could be a large area around the base that becomes phased or Instanced to the participating attackers and defenders and perhaps the siege would have a limited number of attackers and defenders 50 vs 50. Ect. So really large guilds would potentially have to select who gets to participate. There could also be a system in place where small guilds can use players from allied guilds to fill their ranks. These bases if held by a guild would produce significant amounts of resources for the guild.

    Another good possibility would be a siege system similar to ESO or GW2 where the map is littered with pre-built small base camps to massive fortifications which players can continuously attack and defend. There could be several pvp campaigns that players can choose from, each campaign lasting anywhere between 1 to 4 weeks and requiring players to pledge their allegiance to 1 of 2 NPC factions (similar to FFXIV) for the duration of that pvp campaign. Capturing or defending forts would grant resources for players as rewards and while there would be 2 player factions fighting against each other, there would also be the enemy AI faction acting as the 3rd faction , which would also conquer bases from the 2 warring player factions. (Kinda Like Aion). These bases could get defences upgrades which would require players to do special thumping runs to gather a specific resource used to power base defences and upgrade the base. These thumpers could be destroyed and resources could get stolen by the opposite faction.

    The whole point of participating in these pvp campaigns could be simply another way to gain resources, gain reputation with the NPC factions which could unlock convenience perks and cosmetic omniframe components which are specific to each faction.

    Anyways, these are just some ideas I wanted to throw out there on how I think pvp could work in EMBER, without making the game toxic and while allowing players who don’t enjoy pvp to simply never have to experience it, while still being fun and potentially competitive for players who love a good pvp game. Removing the ability to speak with other factions in the pvp zone and making the enemy names invisible are 2 great ways to have pvp while significantly reducing the toxicity and smack talk that can sometimes get out of hand.

    What do you guys think?
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  2. Torgue_Joey

    Torgue_Joey Emberite -Death Reaper KAIJU 'SPLODER




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  3. Pandagnome

    Pandagnome Well-Known Member Happy Kaiju

    the unreal tornament i played most was the 3rd one but that was because of the vehicles and nice hover board they were fun :D
  4. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider - Firstclaimer

    Or we can skip PvP and focus on a well rounded and maintained PvE experience. We only have room for one, and dividing up the teams focus will not be beneficial to the game. Pre or Post launch.
    Rocket and Pandagnome like this.
  5. Torgue_Joey

    Torgue_Joey Emberite -Death Reaper KAIJU 'SPLODER


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  6. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider - Firstclaimer

    I am entitled to my opinion, I don't want to see PvP at any point in this game because of the reasons stated above. Belittling me by telling me to get my eyes checked won't change that.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018 at 9:15 AM
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  7. Pandagnome

    Pandagnome Well-Known Member Happy Kaiju

    I am for the pve and then in the future future pvp if that happens

    Oh no i dont think he belittles you...whispers its because you are a threat to the pvp!

    but seriously pvp in the future once pve is done and hopefully the team could expand by then
    though i am just guessing as always and dreaming but never know hmm
  8. DinsdaleP13

    DinsdaleP13 Firstclaimer

    You could always close your eyes.

    I'd like to see PvP in a different way. Have the ability to spawn in as some of the lower level Kaiju. You wouldn't be able to mine resources, or anything. Just attack other people, knowing you're most likely going to die pretty fast.
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  9. EffusFury

    EffusFury New Member

    ^ That, let's do that. and if you get enough kills you can cash in a kill streak for a slightly better unit.
    I mean, let's face it, there are going to be parts of the game's invasion where parts are the map are just too congested or built up for invading enemies are just going to be a less than stellar side note.
    This could be a fun challenge, and a nice change of pace to keep things refreshing
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  10. Rocket

    Rocket Gatestrider - T.H.M.P.R. Max Kahina

    You'd like to gatecrash someone else's PVE experience as the enemy? How about, no.

    But let's humor you for a minute.

    You want to do it as a lower level Kaiju. This is one area where Ember looks like it will differ from Firefall. Instead on hundreds of creatures that each require their own AI sub-thread on an AI server (I have visions of a sea of Nautilus surrounding a thumper), complete with the requisite server and bandwidth costs, we appear to be heading towards a system where we have less but bigger creatures. Likely necessary to keep running costs down. Which means that even a lower level Kaiju will likely *not* die pretty fast.

    Maybe you meant to suggest playing as a Tsi-Hu. Smarter, but with less firepower. They are the unknown here. This is the area where we don't know what @Grummz really intends.

    A Firefall style dueling system would be cool. Maybe some 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 as well. Nothing structured. Just some frag.
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  11. Pandagnome

    Pandagnome Well-Known Member Happy Kaiju

    I always liked

    - left 4 dead 2 versus because of the way the opponent would try to stop you from completing the objective from getting to the saferoom to stopping you refueling generators.

    - Killing floor 2 versus because you could use the siren to hold down opponents for your team mates to finish off the usual waves.

    - Its not really a game but in secondlife there was a zombie sim and we could control some of the npc our speed would be slower but our attacks are brutal for example say it was an enclosed facility and we would have areas like crawl spaces in air vents, underground passages, etc It was difficult getting close to the survivors but when done well it was fun just another way of playing.

    There was a sign that lit up on our hud saying the area we are in could have a possible live player controlled npc with a counter.
    The player can choose not to go there so there is the option to go else where
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  12. DinsdaleP13

    DinsdaleP13 Firstclaimer


    Well, the Category 0 Kaiju are pack hunters. "Easily dispatched, but dangerous in numbers." So I'm not sure why you think there's going to be few of them. And since there's so many of them, it makes sense that they'd be the ones that players could control. I imagine Category 1 Kaiju will be seen only during mining, or perhaps in certain locations. Category 2+ will only be seen during events.

    You could also use lore to explain the lone Category 0's as a Tsi-Hu controlling that specific one, instead of a swarm, if you wanted.

    I didn't suggest playing as the Tsi-Hu, because their goal is the same as ours. Take over land, and build bases. If we were allowed to play as them, it would just make this a factioned PvP game. And I don't think that's the route anyone wants to take.
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  13. Darsh

    Darsh New Member

    YES YES 100% YES!
    I don't know if any of you guys are following the MMORPG in development called Ashes of Creation. But this is one of the systems they will have in place for that game which I thought was absolutely brilliant. Players will be able to purchase items on the cash shop which allows them to spawn as world bosses during specific dynamic events. There will be different levels of that item for different classes of world bosses. But I could totally see something like this working beautifully in EMBER.

    You could have a cash shop with cosmetic items as well as Tsi-Hu and Kaiju token packs, which would allow players to spawn
    as the enemy during events, or trigger an entirely new event. There could be different levels for these tokens. Like 1 pack could include several (like 10-15) Tsi-Hu tokens, maybe 3x Category 0 Kaiju Tokens, 2x Category 1 Kaiju Tokens and 1x Category 2 Kaiju Token. A Pack like this could easily be sold for $10.

    There would have to be a system in place to make sure prevent a bunch of players from using their Category 2 Kaiju tokens at the same time and spawning a force of Kaijus that is impossible to deal with. When a player wants to use a Kaiju Token, the game would have to to perform a few checks to make sure that there are enough players in the zone, and that the limit number of player Kaijus for this specific category is not already met. If it all checks out, bam.. player spawns as a Kaiju and his token is consumed.. if not, simply tells him that too many Kaijus are in the area at this time, and to try again later.

    The cool thing about this type of system , is that it adds pvp, without really adding PVP. AI enemies no matter how good they are will follow a script and become predictable. By allowing players to spawn as the enemies, there's simply no telling what they will do. Which could add a lot of fun factor because the fight against a human controlled Kaiju will probably never be the same.

    The players who play as enemies would be able to unlock Tsi-Hu and Kaiju themed skins and cosmetic items for their omniframes as a reward.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018 at 5:03 PM
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  14. Rocket

    Rocket Gatestrider - T.H.M.P.R. Max Kahina

    If you allow gatecrashing someone else's PVE experience as the enemy, then it's no longer a PVE experience.

    Your idea is interesting, but one that has been implemented (in a fashion) elsewhere, and also one best left for a completely separate game. It is opposite to the world goals of Em-8er as given in the vision book.
    Easily dispatched by what? A single player frame, or an entire Reaper squad. A pack can be as little as two. One alpha and one beta. I'm certainly not envisaging a base level Kaiju as equivalent to a single base level Arahna as we saw in Firefall.

    I'm thinking there are going to be fewer of them because I want this game to succeed. The AI server is what brought Firefall to it's knees. Every single time. Whether it be five S3 thumpers in close proximity or a Sunken Harbor/Thump Dump invasion. Maybe tech will have advanced enough by the time we get there to make it a none issue in terms of capability. But I'm not expecting the running costs to to have become that cheap. The world is greedy. That's not going to change.

    Of course, none of this we actually know. It's all conjecture at this point. @Grummz might have a better idea.
    There is no such thing as non-factioned PVP.
  15. Pandagnome

    Pandagnome Well-Known Member Happy Kaiju

    This sounds cool and i agree, say there is an option to opt out of pvp so that pvp zones are restricted to those who do not wish to participate. For those that do they could enable it say for example you have options such as

    Pve - this is standard pve enabled
    pvp - this is standard pvp in certain zones to enable or disable optional e.g. arena, ctf, etc etc
    pvpve - this is the combination of pve and pvp who want to play as a kaiju and make it interesting with npc in the mix also option to enable or disable this could be where you can jump into someone's game and make it challenging!

    That way people can decide those who will love pvp can have that and for more excitement and challenge choose the pvpve option hmm

    just thoughts :D
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  16. Darsh

    Darsh New Member

    Yeah, Or even simply do like Old school MMOs and have different servers depending on player preferences. PVE only servers and PVP servers where players can on rare occasions find some lower level Tsi-Hu and Kaiju tokens while Thumping. These tokens would allow them to play as the "bad guys" for an event.

    Now I don't know if there should be actual servers that players have to pick before they create their characters.. I always thought these were somewhat limiting due to the fact that you realise later that you have other friends on different servers and can't play with them..

    But Having a MEGA server with several instances (like GW2 or ESO) would work for this kind of pvp system too. Everytime you log in to your character, there could simply be a check box you need to check if you want to enable or disable PVP and if you disable it, it simply puts you in an instance with other players who want PVE only and where Tsi-Hu and Kaiju tokens cannot be used by players. Simple as that.

    I think this whole Playing as the Enemy idea deserves its own thread as I honestly think it's a brilliant idea which needs some Dev attention. Not only would it make the game less repetitive and more exciting, it would include a type PVP that IMO would improve the PVE experience and wouldn't necessarily create a Toxic environment because players would only be the bad guys temporarily and ultimately to unlock more skins and cosmetics for their Omniframes. It would also create a new way to generate revenue for the game by selling these token packs on their cash shop. And we all want the game to make good revenue without having to resort to a P2W cash shop.

    Its also a unique enough feature that we simply don't see in a lot of games.. That alone would probably attract a lot of players to try the game as they would be doing something different that they haven't seen before.
  17. DinsdaleP13

    DinsdaleP13 Firstclaimer

    I could have sworn I was commenting in a PvP thread....

    Which part of the vision book?

    I would assume a single player frame (and their THMPR), as we can't be expected to be in a squad constantly. And a pack isn't two. Two is a couple.

    And I imagine base Kaiju will be weaker than base Aranha. And just mob the snot out of you and your THMPR. I don't want to spend ten minutes shooting two Cat 0 Kaiju, then have one Cat 1 show up, and spend another ten minutes shooting that. Might as well remove the THMPR and the Kaiju, and just have the players shoot the ground to mine. Sounds boring to me, but to each their own.

    And having players take control of a few of those Kaiju would add strain to the AI servers how?

    So KOTH variants, and FFA PvP no longer exist?

    It would be interesting to see what @Darsh said be implemented. You could pay for tokens to become one of the Tsi-Hu in an invasion, and only during an invasion. Fighting actual people who could fire at you from afar, morph into a Kaiju to flank Reapers, and lay waste to the base. Would also help with cash flow as well. There's only so many cat ears you can wear until you get bored of them.
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  18. Pandagnome

    Pandagnome Well-Known Member Happy Kaiju

    I like the idea that server choice could be changed before/after a mission say you did not feel like doing pvp anymore and wanted to go just for pve then you can select that and change but not during a mission.

    Perhaps there is a hub with server listing you'd pick one ingame and be spawned in the new server and see yourself coming out of a gate like how stargate sg-1 would in the film/series!

    Mega servers would be great for the pvpve i think but i am not technically minded with how it would all work but it does sound great!

    Playing as an enemy not only gets us to know about the enemy side better and a bit about their side of the story too

    for example:

    You get a small intro of each of the kaiju you can play in pvpve and other than just roaming around killing.
    At times you could get an alert or objective E.g.

    A) break the armory without getting caught
    B) Intercept package before mek forces retrieve
    C) Wipeout all region 5
    D) Sabotage Communication towers/ turrets
    E) Relocate baby kaiju's to lair
    F) Stalk 1 player for 15mins without getting caught
    E) Protect Queen Kaiju
    F) Go underground and ambush strike team before sunrise
    G) Plant bug in the base to gather intel
    H) Kaiju Beast Board is similar to the hunter board for pilots. You can provide info and make a mission for other fellow kaiju's,
    rewards are retrieved from the person who listed the job. So an example would be FarmerKaiju1234 job requirements capture Big bobo in under 1 minute reward 10 vegetable spring rolls or whatever the reward may be :D

    Note that you can only provide a certain amount of jobs per day to make it fair for others to put their jobs out.
    Also some jobs could perhaps include others to team up e.g. Micro Kaiju attack pack job 1/4 spaces left, attack mek Assault class with at least 1 kaiju still alive and salvage mek assault core.

    That i agree, when we see unique features and ways to play the game it becomes more attractive not only that also higher re playability than your standard game.

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