I had hoped Ember would be Free to Play...

Mahdi

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
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#61
I think the big conflict here is why do some people get items other can't. Harsh reality is, if a person wants to invest more into it, thy should be rewarded over others. Not p2w stuff but my stance will be that I want to see this game succeed. There won't be a subscription but I would budget a monthly cap of what I could/would spend based on content available. It is okay to be hardcore about something you love without things being torn and watered down for someone who is a "have not". If I want everything and am willing to drop the $$$ on it, then I should have it without other people griping. So many design advantages for cosmetics that can cover all pricing ranges and still give the community a sense of individualization.
 

Deso

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Jul 26, 2016
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#62
I'm much closer the GW1 or GW2 model in thought: Buy the game, play for free, buy the expansion when they are released - sell cosmetics in between. I misspoke about purchasing additional zones. I mean a new galaxy at an expansion level, not individual planets.

MMO shooter servers are much more expensive to run than regular MMO shooters, because of all the physics calculations. We're going to have to come up with some clever ways to mitigate this for an Indie MMO that does not charge a sub.
Sounds resonable, but as i said before. If price might be high, i will pass and farm still gold in WoW for game time token.
 
Jul 28, 2016
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#63
Allow me to throw you an additional idea in the mix.

People buy premium currency (such as Red Beans in FF) to buy cosmetic items. You can unlock zones with real money. Now if you are going to implement an exchange market (such as Red Bean exhange in FF) where we can exchange premium currency with non-premium currency (such as Crystite, The good stuff™) then we can unlock new zones with said premium currency at a slightly higher price(to promote new purchases with real $$$). People willing to spend extra cash on Ember will buy the unlock, people not willing to spend any more on ember could buy up premium currency from other players and unlock the zone tat way. This premium currency at the exchange will never lose it's value. In order to limit the P2W aspect of selling premium currency to buy the best gear on the market and making a profit out of the market you could impose a tax on the seller. After selling your premium currency the amount of non premium currency you get gets reduced by ~10%.
I like the thought of having a conversion in-game that could be used to obtain "premium" currency to unlock upgrades/new areas. This would also be nice! I do have to agree with a previous comment about kickstarting fundraisers to unlock new areas as well. I'm also liking a idea about a combination of F2P-B2P (for expansions). This will let everyone enjoy the game as much or as little as they want while also giving feedback on certain areas for what players like. It's all a mystery until Grummz says the final word!
 
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Jul 28, 2016
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#64
I'm on the fence. I'm okay with B2P, as long as it's a reasonable cost. Same with Microtransactions. I'll spend money there, but i'm not spending 20$ on a vehicle/mount, 50$ on a new frame, etc.
 
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PCMasterReece

Guest
#66
I'm much closer the GW1 or GW2 model in thought: Buy the game, play for free, buy the expansion when they are released - sell cosmetics in between. I misspoke about purchasing additional zones. I mean a new galaxy at an expansion level, not individual planets.
I do have to question this.
Why do you think making people buy the game and then having microtransactions (even for just cosmetics) is a good thing. Most games get criticized massively for that practice, As well liked as Overwatch is people call it's microtransactions BS.

Also DLC (additional zones)???? Really? It may work for games like Battlefield and CoD but Ember isn't on their level. I mean why not go the route of Blizzard with Overwatch with free DLC, that brings in good attention because gamers love free DLC, they don't like buying a game and then having to buy more of the game, It makes it feel like the game they bought was purposely not finished.
You never used to have to back in the good old days as they say.

I would rather pay 60$ for a full game, than have microtransactions and pay for additional zones. This is just my opinion on that part though, others may not want to pay that much for a game.

I don't feel like they will be as universally liked as you are hoping for Mark. I think Jim sterling says it best in this video which is literally all about this sort of practice

 
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TankHunter678

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
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#68
I do have to question this.
Why do you think making people buy the game and then having microtransactions (even for just cosmetics) is a good thing. Most games get criticized massively for that practice, As well liked as Overwatch is people call it's microtransactions BS.

Also DLC???? Really? It may work for games like Battlefield and CoD but Ember isn't on their level. I mean why not go the route of Blizzard with Overwatch with free DLC, that brings in good attention because gamers love free DLC, they don't like buying a game and then having to buy more of the game, It makes it feel like the game they bought was purposely not finished.
You never used to have to back in the good old days as they say.

I don't feel like they will be as universally liked as you are hoping for Mark. I think Jim sterling says it best in this video which is literally all about this sort of practice

Initial price has a big impact on player perspectives. Overwatch is a 60$ game, them charging microtransactions for cosmetics baffles a lot of people when they could get a similar quality game from an indie company for 20-30$. Same thing for Starcraft. Some people in total spent 180$ getting the full SC2 experience others spent 300$ on all the collector editions as they came out, now they need to pay extra for the heroes in Allied Commanders? They have to pay extra for the Nova campaign?

Mark said he plans to be on the upper end of the indie spectrum, which means this game will probably cost between 30$ and 40$. That is reasonable.

The thing gamers do not like is DLC that feels required to enjoy the game properly.

However another thing you need to remember:

Overwatch is not an MMO.
SC2 is not an MMO.

MMOs need constant funding to keep going. A initial buy in price is fine, especially at that relatively low price compared to other buy in games. In fact the cosmetics from the shop being completely optional is awesome. Maybe a optional subscription that gives you X amount of the microtransaction currency every month so they can buy cosmetics would be fine with many people.

That is perfectly fine because MMOs need a regular money in take in order to keep pumping out new content.

If we make the expansions buy-in then people could help fund further development of the new zone. Later on the zones can be added into the base game for free, just have the latest expansion being developed get cycled into the buy-in beta. Can also make it so that those with the optional subscription are automatically in the buy-in beta.
 
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PCMasterReece

Guest
#69
I will add, Paying for additional zones is worse than Firefall's level gating that everyone complained about.

Imagine if your friends bought into another zone and wanted to play it and you couldn't afford to do that. You will be segregated from your friends because while they can play in that new zone, you can't. It's a lot like in Firefall when you are level 45 and your friend is level 10, you can play together but you don't want to go back and fight level 10 monsters.

So paying for additional zones would be bad.

Honestly F2P with some Microtransactions for Cosmetics or pets or bikes/cars/jets/boats idk would be awesome in all honesty.
 

Krhys

Commander
Jul 26, 2016
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#70
Well, Eve Online is still doing fine after many, many years of monthly subs but I know once you get big enough you can buy game time with in game currency.

A one off payment would be a very good option for this game, with cosmetics, etc. but please don't get ppl to pay for zones and other content. I did spend quite a bit of cash on Warframe to unlock new frames and weapons, etc. but as the cost was low, that did not bother me very much, POSSIBLY an area to consider.

If the money goes into building a better game for all, then it's well spent. Just don't gate content, that's a bad move.
 

TankHunter678

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
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#72
I will add, Paying for additional zones is worse than Firefall's level gating that everyone complained about.

Imagine if your friends bought into another zone and wanted to play it and you couldn't afford to do that. You will be segregated from your friends because while they can play in that new zone, you can't. It's a lot like in Firefall when you are level 45 and your friend is level 10, you can play together but you don't want to go back and fight level 10 monsters.

So paying for additional zones would be bad.

Honestly F2P with some Microtransactions for Cosmetics or pets or bikes/cars/jets/boats idk would be awesome in all honesty.
Which the friend can just wait for the zone to be moved to the base game. Or they can talk to their friends and get help paying for it.

Or hey, maybe if the game was set up for it the new zone could be bought with the microtransaction money that they bought with in game currency (be it either resources, or currency bought with resources from vendors, or just straight up credits depending on how the economy works) from other players.

And Mark Already said he is not doing F2P again because that means he has to design mostly everything as a monetization scheme to trick players into spending money.

Instead its going to be that GW2 model where you pay once for the base game, and you pay for expansion content. Like any other MMO that is not F2P, but it wont require you to spend money every month on a subscription just for the ability to play it.

But me? I am talking about purchasing new zones mainly as a form of buy in beta, with the zones eventually coming to the base game anyways. Its a way to help keep the funding coming so more content can be made. Its a lot like the Patreon system for many indie developers making games that will be released for free where those who are backers get the new content first before it is moved to the free version.

Cause hey I would also rather not see "buy the expansion or get left behind" either.
 
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PCMasterReece

Guest
#73
Which the friend can just wait for the zone to be moved to the base game. Or they can talk to their friends and get help paying for it.

Or hey, maybe if the game was set up for it the new zone could be bought with the microtransaction money that they bought with in game currency (be it either resources, or currency bought with resources from vendors, or just straight up credits depending on how the economy works) from other players.

And Mark Already said he is not doing F2P again because that means he has to design mostly everything as a monetization scheme to trick players into spending money.

Instead its going to be that GW2 model where you pay once for the base game, and you pay for expansion content. Like any other MMO that is not F2P, but it wont require you to spend money every month on a subscription just for the ability to play it.

But me? I am talking about purchasing new zones mainly as a form of buy in beta, with the zones eventually coming to the base game anyways. Its a way to help keep the funding coming so more content can be made. Its a lot like the Patreon system for many indie developers making games that will be released for free where those who are backers get the new content first before it is moved to the free version.

Cause hey I would also rather not see "buy the expansion or get left behind" either.
Agreed in beta buying additional zones will be ok for funding purposes. I was mainly stating during a full release though with what I said because you the "buy the expansion or get left behind" way of doing things isn't fun.
 

Mahdi

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
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#74
Its hard to use any Blizzard or other AAA game company as a comparison with anything they put out. They start with the finances needed to make the game and have much more flexibility in continued income. Being on such a tight budget as Ember will be (unless someone has a couple million to donate) a design that might bother some people in order to even get to and through development will likely happen. I was hardcore into Firefall and if I had the chance to sub for Ember I would. Not for any kind of advantage or premium content, just to continue doing my part in supporting the games existence. This is my personal feelings about it. Everything this early is almost pointless to debate. Give Kern time with the current progress. None of us will know until anything playable comes out whether Ember will end up bringing in droves of interested people and their money or if the ball will get dropped and that will be that.
 
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Deso

Veteran
Jul 26, 2016
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#75
I started losing faith to this project seriously. After all i reading here, i guess i will wait for further news.
 
Jul 27, 2016
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#77
I don't want to be a $60 game, but it will on the higher end of the Indie spectrum because of cost to build. No subscription fees, and we'll sell cosmetics, name changes, etc. as well as unlocking new zones. Or maybe we crowdfund the new playable areas instead. Still all up in the air, but those are general thoughts.
I'd be okay with $30-40 up front. I'm a spendy person but not too spendy.

Edit: I'm also a sucker for teleports. Lots of people are suckers for teleports. If you let paying people teleport friends and party members it helps with community interaction too.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#78
Retail Games aren't the devil. granted, it's difficult because always online types of stuff can't be 'previewed' by the Customer to see if they like it before they pay money for it. but there's not much you can do about that.

a reasonable Retail cost as well as having monetization is really the most practical business model for games as a whole (because every game can't be free, Et Cetera. it's the business model that covers the most types of games).
has some intial cost, but doesn't cost $60 because raisons, and because of that has some other monetization which helps in the longrun. lots of people whine about this but this type of model can support the most types of games financially while being 'the minimum amount of evil possible'.


Subscriptions can blow me though. games that are Subscription based or structure themselves to basically force the Player to make a Subscription - i'm good, i'll play other games.
i don't do Subscriptions. period. i don't care what it is.
they're financially excellent for whoever owns it. it doesn't matter. i don't do subscriptions.

- - - - -

unlocking new zones - what of a different way? rather than it functioning like a """""'DLC'""""", people that wish to specifically put money towards that can... do so in a sort of recurring funding campaign way. they get special snowflake trinkets for doing so, but in the end it's for everyone, not only some people.

signifncant game content being contained in separate purchases creates tons of problems for games, for example having map packs and such as DLC's in games - they split player bases and that's pretty much suicide for a Multiplayer reliant game type.

Multiplayer Shooters find this out the hard way, selling extra maps and content with separate purchases, and then you'll notice that 99% of the Servers are vanilla only. why? because the extra purchases, regardless of cost, splits playerbase. 100% of players can play vanilla content. much smaller percentages can play mixed or only DLC content.
it works great for a Singleplayer game, buy the stuff you want, but when you rely on Playerbase to sustain a game, splitting it only achieves making your game look like there's less people playing it.

Warframe has even had this problem, despite having over 100,000 active Players at any given time, previously what more experienced Players spent the vast majority of their time in the game doing, farming for Prime stuff - was in sessions you couldn't matchmake for, or see that people were playing it.
we've gotten questions or misinterpretations all the time that 'the game is dead nobody plays it'. there's actually a metric ton of people playing, but you'd never be able to play with them.

that stuff all has Matchmaking now, so the people doing that is in clear view of everyone else. that was critically important to do, so that prospective Players could find other Players playing the game. Et Cetera.

tl;dr splitting Playerbase is a really rocky road and it's fine financially but it's not so fine for how the game appears to Consumers. and how they interpret it is crucial, most will not investigate further to see if that's true or not.


That opinion is shared by many that pay 2 Win isn't welcomed, but it isn't fair either to lump all pay to win as bad. Can a game be absolutely pay to win free? I don't believe and i don't believe all of them ruin game experience, example are the basic form of currency or exp booster is pay to win and many if not all games have them. Another would be premium tanks or prime warframe packages. All of which also don't ruin it but improve the gameplay for many players.
the sorts of things you give examples as 'okay Pay to Win' literally isn't. you don't win anything by it. infact, usually (like Prime Access for example) you pay to not play the game, basically. because Warframe there, since most people don't know how to have fun, the game is all about farming 234976235 types of Credits (it is, through and through), and buying the items you'd be trying to get basically means those players pay money to get bored.

while WoT is a pretty cancerous game (not for being pay to win as it's reduced the problem of most of this issues over time - the game is still purpose built to try and force you to spend money though, it's a cancerous game on the industry), the shiny tanks are technically just different things, not necessarily better.
War Thunder does a better job at that though. those shiny vehicles are either identical to other models, or are actually slightly inferior but matchmake slightly lower as well.


paying to skip gameplay doesn't make you 'win' unless that makes you actually superior to other Players. which means superior numbers or things that only you can get because of that.
with earlier days in say WoT for example, almost every vehicle had a cash only Ammo Type, that was literally superior in all possible ways to the other Ammunition types. THAT, is pay to win. you spend money, and you universally perform better. even if you were a pro with your vehicle, that Ammo made you better, period. (yes, it's available for Credits nowadays - though the cost is high enough that it didn't really solve the problem, basically impossible to use them unless you spend money still)

however there are also problems with allowing you to walk around things you're supposed to do in the game, as that has a tendency to... cause a paradigm shift in what those things you're supposed to be doing are.
which isn't really because it's a pay to win problem - it's a different kind of problem but still... a problem.

Overwatch is a 60$ game
(Overwatch is a $40 game)
http://i.imgur.com/lEPSxiT.png
vs the $60 version:
http://i.imgur.com/dvqau0a.png

a few extra Skins and some merchandising doesn't make it a $60 game. the GAME is $40.

I did spend quite a bit of cash on Warframe to unlock new frames and weapons, etc. but as the cost was low, that did not bother me very much, POSSIBLY an area to consider.
it also helps that buying Equipment just skips the (usually) pretty simple process of Crafting it. so just a button for being lazy/impatient. :)
 
Jul 28, 2016
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#79
Having to find the balance between pricing things high enough to make money, but low enough so that players don't feel like they're being gouged... I don't envy them.
 

Beerdog6

Firstclaimer
Aug 1, 2016
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#80
What a can of worms.
My two cents. leveling and a regular subscription and exp packs is not the way to go.
Paying for the initial vanilla game. yes.
having the in game experience farming to improve your stats. yes, but don't make it unreachable with a bit of work.
use micro transactions to speed up the process. yes
use micro transactions for cosmetics. yes and for Fun stuff. like items from
the TIKI BAR!
Use some type of founders pack/settlers pack to fund new areas. first dub on new areas with some kind of additional
perks/equipment. but open it later to anyone.