As an "engineer" class...

TankHunter678

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2016
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#41
I never said everyone does the same things, but people ought to be able to pull their weight. Things should be successful based on both your strategic and tactical thinking, as well as execution. A loadout focused around ammo deployment and AOE has that. A loadout focused in sniping and healing does that. A loadout focused in turrets does not
A loadout focused around sniping does not help against swarms, in fact it is a detriment.
A loadout focused around AoE is limited against single targets.

A loadout focused around turrets helps against both single targets and swarms. In fact, you can bring a variety of turrets specialized for a variety of situations to complement the gun the Engineer brings to the fight. Allowing them to fulfill the roles of multiple people in one person.

Fact of the matter is that the utilization of turrets helps reduce the needs for more people in an area, allowing them to be freed up for other locations nearby that need more fire support. It is part of the reason why drone based weaponry is being developed and used.

Just keep in mind that our target audience is more then just hardcore PvP shooter players.
 
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#42
I'm pointing out that there's a difference between marketing terminology and genre/category. What do you think Ember will be compared to? (Answer: other shooters and other MMOs)
Maybe you're not seeing the whole picture. Like how much Ember is going to break away from the mold. Or like how wide the net for genres really are. I don't think most people compare Ark: Survival Evolved to World of Warcraft and Call of duty.
If people think of Ember as playing like Overwatch meets Tribes in an Ark like open world I don't see how that would be a bad thing. I'm pretty sure that's the reason they named it a massive planetary wargame. It's a good way to tell us what to expect not just fancy market speak.
 

Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
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#43
Maybe you're not seeing the whole picture. Like how much Ember is going to break away from the mold. Or like how wide the net for genres really are. I don't think most people compare Ark: Survival Evolved to World of Warcraft and Call of duty.
If people think of Ember as playing like Overwatch meets Tribes in an Ark like open world I don't see how that would be a bad thing. I'm pretty sure that's the reason they named it a massive planetary wargame. It's a good way to tell us what to expect not just fancy market speak.
It's going to be a role based shooter. Mold's pretty unbroken there. Open world shooters have been done before as well. The platform building is a neat take on user-generated towns, but it's not really new either.
As well, the notion that game X is perfectly unique, or that it will be everything everyone is dreamed of is actually harmful to both the community and, in many cases, the product itself. Fanboyism will not help Ember. It will not help Ember's dev team. I'd advise curbing that shit ASAP. It didn't help Firefall one bit

A loadout focused around sniping does not help against swarms, in fact it is a detriment.
A loadout focused around AoE is limited against single targets.
Both are actually based on execution. A high damage single shot AOE weapon can be a decent workhorse vs singular targets (see the original Quake, DOOM, etc) and a sniper rifle could be boosted with abilities that have say, explosive shots, or some sort of CC. All of those are execution based

A loadout focused around turrets helps against both single targets and swarms. In fact, you can bring a variety of turrets specialized for a variety of situations to complement the gun the Engineer brings to the fight. Allowing them to fulfill the roles of multiple people in one person.
I'm not seeing where this is a positive aspect. We should have the AI do it because the AI can do multiple jobs?

Fact of the matter is that the utilization of turrets helps reduce the needs for more people in an area, allowing them to be freed up for other locations nearby that need more fire support. It is part of the reason why drone based weaponry is being developed and used.
Right, and when the goal of the game is to not play it, the introduction of hands-free output will make sense

Just keep in mind that our target audience is more then just hardcore PvP shooter players.
WoW's audience was more than just hardcore raiders or arena players, but vanilla wow did not have a class that focused on 3 abilities so people didnt have to worry about skill bars. This sort of dumbing-down does a disservice both to the casual player and to the enthusiast, and your platitudes do little to change that.
 
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#44
It's going to be a role based shooter. Mold's pretty unbroken there. Open world shooters have been done before as well. The platform building is a neat take on user-generated towns, but it's not really new either.
You missed the boat there pal. New genre's arent usually created from completely new gameplay concepts. They are usually existing concepts with a twist or combined in a way that folks start to view in new light. It's like I said, you won't find dudes comparing Ark:survival evolved to World of Warcraft or Call of duty. It sure aint because no one has ever built a house, thrown a spear or seen a dinosaur in a video game before. It's the way the parts all come together in that game make's it something kind of different. The expectations for it are kind of different. That's what breaks the mold.

As well, the notion that game X is perfectly unique, or that it will be everything everyone is dreamed of is actually harmful to both the community and, in many cases, the product itself. Fanboyism will not help Ember. It will not help Ember's dev team. I'd advise curbing that shit ASAP. It didn't help Firefall one bit
Dude. Who are you talking to? I didn't say a single bit of that and your over here grandstanding against it. Rotflmao.
 
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Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
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#45
You missed the boat there pal. New genre's arent usually created from completely new gameplay concepts. They are usually existing concepts with a twist or combined in a way that folks start to view in new light. It's like I said, you won't find dudes comparing Ark:survival evolved to World of Warcraft or Call of duty. It sure aint because no one has ever build a house, thrown a spear or seen a dinosaur in a video game before. It's the way the parts all come together in that game make's it something kind of different. The expectations for it are kind of different. That's what breaks the mold.
Ark's not part of a new genre, unless by new you're including anything made in the last 10-15 years. Adding dinosaurs to a survival game doesn't make it a new thing. Similarly, adding base-platforms to Firefall and not tanking the game hard in beta doesn't create a new genre
People don't compare Ark to WoW or CoD because it's much more accurate to compare it to other games within its genre, like Rust, Savage Lands, Reign of Kings etc. It's like saying Halo invented a genre because people don't compare it to Super Mario Brothers or Street Fighter. It's just nonsense

And yes, by attempting to suggest that what basically amounts to Firefall 2.0: Lessons were learned, will be this breakout new genre, you are attempting to elevate it. It's not going to fit in that bucket. It *will* get compared to other shooters, and other open world games, and other MMOs. It will be compared to them because those are its characteristics. The question is which of those 3 do you want it to be favourably compared to. You're not going to get OW/Tribes/Ark, and people shouldn't be expecting that shit because at least two of those are incredibly focused projects and they're going to be disappointed if they expect a small team to deliver on all 3 fronts.
 
#46
I'm hoping that engineer builds have the choice to gear towards abilities that don't include turrets and other deployables. I always saw them as cannon-fodder. Good for distracting the enemy and nothing else. I couldn't wait to get rid of the Anti-Personnel Turret from my abilities. Too bad they made the Electron's Electrical Storm HKM uselessly weak.

It will be interesting to see what sort of alternate fire engineer type weapons will have. Repair beam or repair arc of electricity, similar to Firefall, or something completely different. A secondary-fire could shoot an orb that would release repair-nanites in the area of effect, turning it into an AoE healing effect, which then could be balanced with a slower rate of fire perhaps.

Also, if people really want their little turrets, then how about giving those builds the ability to summon them on their own omni-frame, as well. Hard-points on the shoulders or out-thighs could spawn smaller turret, micro-rocket-pods, machine-gun turrets...etc., it could be a common ability or something similar to a HKM. Heck, there could be a variant that deploys a shoulder-mounted rail-gun for a limited time (say 12s or even half a minute, depending on how slow the fire-rate would be) which the frame can slug around with, dealing extreme damage from even longer distances.
 
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#47
Ark's not part of a new genre, unless by new you're including anything made in the last 10-15 years. Adding dinosaurs to a survival game doesn't make it a new thing. Similarly, adding base-platforms to Firefall and not tanking the game hard in beta doesn't create a new genre
People don't compare Ark to WoW or CoD because it's much more accurate to compare it to other games within its genre, like Rust, Savage Lands, Reign of Kings etc. It's like saying Halo invented a genre because people don't compare it to Super Mario Brothers or Street Fighter. It's just nonsense
Don't think I didn't notice how you sidestepped acknowledging that new genre's don't require brand new concepts.
No the survival genre isn't new. A few key games like Ark and Rust have brought the genre to the forefront in recent years though. A genre that is a combination of shooter gameplay and an open world yet isn't usually lumped into the usual mmo or shooter categories. That's a different set of expectations between genre's that have a lot in common. Unlike your ridiculous halo and street fighter example.

Similarly, adding base-platforms to Firefall and not tanking the game hard in beta doesn't create a new genre
Special attention goes to this part. One of red 5's main problem's was that they couldn't decide what genre they wanted firefall to be in. That game bounced between genre identities in a very complicated history.

And yes, by attempting to suggest that what basically amounts to Firefall 2.0: Lessons were learned, will be this breakout new genre, you are attempting to elevate it. It's not going to fit in that bucket. It *will* get compared to other shooters, and other open world games, and other MMOs. It will be compared to them because those are its characteristics. The question is which of those 3 do you want it to be favourably compared to. You're not going to get OW/Tribes/Ark, and people shouldn't be expecting that shit because at least two of those are incredibly focused projects and they're going to be disappointed if they expect a small team to deliver on all 3 fronts.
Oh I get it. You modify the context of peoples statements to make them seem extreme. That's fun.
Dude when people say a game is this game meets that game they don't mean it's literally the full feature set of both games combined into one. It doesn't mean it's going to appease all members of both fan bases. It's just a figure of speech to give folks a basic understanding of the kind of stuff to expect. This happens all the time.

I say Ember is kind of it's own genre because it's kind of different. That's not elevating it. Ember's genre is probably more niche and less mass market friendly than most. Different doesn't mean better. It just means different.
 

Pandagnome

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Jul 27, 2016
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#48
I wouldn't mind shoulder turrets sort of like the iron man!

or

Hover turrets that can follow you and be instructed to even guard with
a reasonable cool down
 
#49
Arg! No auto-aim-turret-whatfuckever-shit for me! Just
NOOOO!!!!!

Auto turrets are in my opinion for losers and noobs... In RC player got a Lock on Missile Launcher and all they do is fucking flying around spamming mouse1 and being fuckling noobs that i want to slit the throats and throw through teh window of teh last floor of a sky scraper!!! *Hits the table* So...
No! No! No! No! No! No! No! *Hits the table harder... 7 times*

I'm fine with player controlled turrets or crap turrets (totally crappy ai and needs to be guided by teh player xD). but no autofire-shit-turrets for me

and normally all what ppl do when they got turrets is being afk, rubbing their ass at the next wall and waiting till they get kicked for being afk or till they farmed 100k of that to sell it for a high price while doing nothing _._ i don't want that shit
 
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Torgue_Joey

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KAIJU 'SPLODER
Jul 27, 2016
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#50
Arg! No auto-aim-turret-whatfuckever-shit for me! Just
NOOOO!!!!!

Auto turrets are in my opinion for losers and noobs... In RC player got a Lock on Missile Launcher and all they do is fucking flying around spamming mouse1 and being fuckling noobs that i want to slit the throats and throw through teh window of teh last floor of a sky scraper!!! *Hits the table* So...
No! No! No! No! No! No! No! *Hits the table harder... 7 times*

I'm fine with player controlled turrets or crap turrets (totally crappy ai and needs to be guided by teh player xD). but no autofire-shit-turrets for me

and normally all what ppl do when they got turrets is being afk, rubbing their ass at the next wall and waiting till they get kicked for being afk or till they farmed 100k of that to sell it for a high price while doing nothing _._ i don't want that shit
CAN I SUGGEST YOU A TANK? THE BEST MOBILE MANNED BIGASS TURRET ON TODAY'S MARKET. AND IT GOES *BOOM*.
 
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Torgue_Joey

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Jul 27, 2016
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#51
It will be interesting to see what sort of alternate fire engineer type weapons will have. Repair beam or repair arc of electricity, similar to Firefall, or something completely different. A secondary-fire could shoot an orb that would release repair-nanites in the area of effect, turning it into an AoE healing effect, which then could be balanced with a slower rate of fire perhaps.
A heavy armored tank with that kind of weapon would be funny to watch.
3 tanks next to each others and healing/repairing back and forth xD

LET'S PLACE A BET FOR HOW LONG THEY CAN SURVIVE A SWARM OF RABBITS.
 

Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
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#53
Don't think I didn't notice how you sidestepped acknowledging that new genre's don't require brand new concepts.
No the survival genre isn't new. A few key games like Ark and Rust have brought the genre to the forefront in recent years though. A genre that is a combination of shooter gameplay and an open world yet isn't usually lumped into the usual mmo or shooter categories. That's a different set of expectations between genre's that have a lot in common. Unlike your ridiculous halo and street fighter example.
Ark didnt bring the genre to the forefront, it rode in on an already existing wave of popularity. Additionally, shooting is not an inherent part of a survival game. I brought up Halo and Street Fighter because that's just as ridiculous as comparing Survival games to MMOs and Shooters. Some of them can have shooting mechanics, just as Halo can have punching, but that doesn't make them the same thing

Special attention goes to this part. One of red 5's main problem's was that they couldn't decide what genre they wanted firefall to be in. That game bounced between genre identities in a very complicated history.
Given that I was in from the earliest CB tests, I'd suggest that I'm fully aware of Firefall's problems, but fixing Firefall's problems does not suddenly create a new genre. Additionally, it was less genre and more direction. Firefall didn't really swap genres so much as it moved along the gradient between RPG and Shooter without really doing either exceptionally well

Oh I get it. You modify the context of peoples statements to make them seem extreme. That's fun.
Dude when people say a game is this game meets that game they don't mean it's literally the full feature set of both games combined into one. It doesn't mean it's going to appease all members of both fan bases. It's just a figure of speech to give folks a basic understanding of the kind of stuff to expect. This happens all the time.
No, you're missing the point entirely
You should not sell a jack of all trades on comparisons to specialized products. That is the perfect way to get complaints about the lack of X or Y. It's literally why they aren't calling the game an MMO. Additionally, I'd highly suggest not trying to develop the game along those sorts of lines anyway, because that's exactly what Firefall did

I say Ember is kind of it's own genre because it's kind of different. That's not elevating it. Ember's genre is probably more niche and less mass market friendly than most. Different doesn't mean better. It just means different.
A shooter with RPG mechanics isn't niche or different. Shoving that into an open world isn't new. The aggrandizement comes from trying to make Ember something it isn't. It's not a new entry in a new genre, it is (potentially) a well-done iteration
If we made genres granular enough to make Ember unique, I'd suggest that we'd have too many genres

And ultimately this is all missing the core point. This isn't, nor has it ever been, an argument for the addition of turrets. This is simply an off topic discussion brought on by your dislike of my unwillingness to see Ember as the special snowflake you'd like me to. If you'd like to continue it, take it to PMs
 
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#55
Arg! No auto-aim-turret-whatfuckever-shit for me! Just
NOOOO!!!!!

Auto turrets are in my opinion for losers and noobs... In RC player got a Lock on Missile Launcher and all they do is fucking flying around spamming mouse1 and being fuckling noobs that i want to slit the throats and throw through teh window of teh last floor of a sky scraper!!! *Hits the table* So...
No! No! No! No! No! No! No! *Hits the table harder... 7 times*

I'm fine with player controlled turrets or crap turrets (totally crappy ai and needs to be guided by teh player xD). but no autofire-shit-turrets for me

and normally all what ppl do when they got turrets is being afk, rubbing their ass at the next wall and waiting till they get kicked for being afk or till they farmed 100k of that to sell it for a high price while doing nothing _._ i don't want that shit
you dont have to play it
 
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#56
"Ark didnt bring the genre to the forefront"
I said "a few games like ark and rust", meaning Ark is only one of the many that did it.

"shooting is not an inherent part of a survival game."
Still a new person might mistake gameplay footage of rust with a another shooter or shooter hybrid. No one mistakes footage of Street Fighter for a Halo like game. Expect maybe Killer Instinct for Halo because the Arbiter is in both games. lol

"Additionally, it was less genre and more direction."
Hey sure who cares what some of the people who made the game say about that.

"You should not sell a jack of all trades on comparisons to specialized products."
I said if people view it that way it would not be bad. Not the developers who sell it and make it. Just regular people.
Watch some new gametrailers on YouTube. Look down in the comment section. Dude's are using the "it looks like this crossed with that" all over the place. It's how a lot of people talk.

"The aggrandizement comes from trying to make Ember something it isn't."
No it doesn't. Anyway I said "Kind of a new genre" because it's "kind of different". I think you're trying to put too many hard edges on things.

"This isn't, nor has it ever been, an argument for the addition of turrets."
Not directly. I was trying to bring up that there are good shooters with turrets in them. If people see Ember as a new hybrid genre game based partly on that kind of shooter with turrets it would be ok.
 

Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
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#57
Responding to the OT stuff in PMs. Keeping in-thread stuff on-topic

"This isn't, nor has it ever been, an argument for the addition of turrets."
Not directly. I was trying to bring up that there are good shooters with turrets in them. If people see Ember as a new hybrid genre game based partly on that kind of shooter with turrets it would be ok.
The existence of games with turrets is not an argument for turrets. What's more, the existence of turrets in a game people like does not mean people like turrets. Other mechanics can, and do, compensate for singular mechanics people don't like
 
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#58
The existence of games with turrets is not an argument for turrets. What's more, the existence of turrets in a game people like does not mean people like turrets. Other mechanics can, and do, compensate for singular mechanics people don't like
Yeah ok. Hypothetically turrets could be some thing no one likes in these games. In reality there are tons of people who play turret characters, look for turret characters, look for games with turret characters. That's what I talking about. You're not really going to say turrets don't have a fanbase. We know they do.

I'm supposed to be on topic right? Ok


A loadout focused around sniping does not help against swarms, in fact it is a detriment.
A loadout focused around AoE is limited against single targets.
Tankhunter points out that different loadouts have different strengths. Basic stuff.
Both are actually based on execution. A high damage single shot AOE weapon can be a decent workhorse vs singular targets (see the original Quake, DOOM, etc) and a sniper rifle could be boosted with abilities that have say, explosive shots, or some sort of CC. All of those are execution based
Beeman responds by suggesting those pesky differences could be solved by taking away weaknesses and adding strengths. True, obvious and pointless to say.
If we make those abilities limited use the different strengths of the loadouts generally remain. So tankhunter was right.
If we make those abilities constant then the weapons become way too similar. Homogenization gone crazy. Boring. That's not the goal.

I'm not seeing where this is a positive aspect. We should have the AI do it because the AI can do multiple jobs?

Right, and when the goal of the game is to not play it, the introduction of hands-free output will make sense
The positive for one guy isn't the same for another. Sometimes the goal is to make a game that works for multiple levels and types of skill.

Some players don't have the shooter type skill set required to keep up with other shooter players. Turret classes can be a way for that person to contribute to the team anyway. Sometimes this means the skill ceiling and skill floor aren't so far apart for the turret class. That's for when the class is meant for lower skill players. Sometimes the turret class is made so it has to worry about things like resource management, build times and build order to a degree that would be too much for someone in the middle of twitch aiming. That's for when the class is meant for players with a different type of skill set. Sometimes it means the turret class has some other aspect, that has a super high skill requirement to use. That's for when the class is made to be high skill but still factor in turrets.
 
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Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
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#59
Yeah ok. Hypothetically turrets could be some thing no one likes in these games. In reality there are tons of people who play turret characters, look for turret characters, look for games with turret characters. That's what I talking about. You're not really going to say turrets don't have a fanbase. We know they do.
"I like thing" still isn't a valid reason to have said thing. If it was, why wouldnt "I don't like thing" hold just as much weight? Do you have stats that suggest it's a major draw for these games? Or could it be that quite a lot of people don't care or don't like turrets, and focus on the rest of the game instead?

Anything that exists for more than one iteration has a fanbase. A fanbase existing does not prove anything about a particular thing. In some dark corner of the internet, the Atari ET game has a fanbase

Beeman responds by suggesting those pesky differences could be solved by taking away weaknesses and adding strengths. True, obvious and pointless to say.
If we make those abilities limited use the different strengths of the loadouts generally remain. So tankhunter was right.
If we make those abilities constant then the weapons become way too similar. Homogenization gone crazy. Boring. That's not the goal.
Interesting strawman you've built. Quite flimsy though

Your statement depends on quite a few assumptions
1. That the game will not have generalist builds
2. More specifically, that you cannot have explosives, a long range weapons, and heals on the same frame loadout (something that has even been possible in class-based games)
3. That somehow I have covered all the bases by adding AOE abilities, or an AOE secondary (equippable in a classless system, I might add) to a sniper with heals
4. That you cannot have meaningful differences without changing categories

Given that you're 0 for 4 there, I'd say you're shit out of luck on your attempted jab

The positive for one guy isn't the same for another. Sometimes the goal is to make a game that works for multiple levels and types of skill.
If you had read my posts, youd know why I think turrets don't work for multiple levels and types of skill. You could address those specifically, but simply restating a position I've been debunking doesn't undo whatever I've said

Some players don't have the shooter skill set required to keep up with other shooter players.
OTHER shooter players. So you accept that Ember is a shooter then?

Turret classes can be a way for that person to contribute to the team anyway.
You know, somehow those of us who came late to the FPS genre and had to develop those skills on our own managed without the game doing the shooting for us. If I recall correctly there was a type of weapon that could do decent damage in... Well I suppose you'd call it affecting a large area

With these large area affecting weapons, newbies and shitters (the latter being a category I have been in in many games, before digging myself out or, in the case of CPM, resigning myself to a lifetime of getting good) could do things like deny movement to particular areas, or hit enemies relatively easily

But I suppose hitting the same city block as your target is too hard for people these days. Maybe we should target health management next with a god mode drone

Sometimes this means the skill ceiling and skill floor aren't so far apart for the turret class. That's for when the class is meant for lower skill players.
Except turrets are at their worst in low end matches. New players are attempting to learn things with a skill curve and are matched up with people who get their damage dealt for them. This can be discouraging even in a PvE environment, where new players will essentially be carried by players with AI-based damage, until such a point that the reverse happens

Sometimes the turret class is made so it has to worry about things like resource management, build times and build order to a degree that would be too much for someone in the middle of twitch aiming.
Please name the game where this is the case. Remember that games like Quake and CS exist, wherein players are expected to spin quite a number of plates. Same goes for your high skill requirement
 
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#60
"I like thing" still isn't a valid reason to have said thing. If it was, why wouldnt "I don't like thing" hold just as much weight?
lol. Likes vary from person to person dude. Every game is made to cater to a crowd with certain set of Likes. No game is expected to appeal to every single person out there. When folks find a game that feature things they like they play it, when folks find a game that features things they don't like they don't play it.

I'm curious. If whether people like or dislike something doesn't matter. What would you say is the right criteria for putting something in a game?

Do you have stats that suggest it's a major draw for these games?
I didn't say it was a major draw for any game. I said there was a lot of people who look to use it. How could I show that?
You mean like character play percentages of games like Overwatch and TF2? Go ahead and look them up. ;)
There isn't going to be some perfectly quantifiable poll on the enjoyment of any feature. Then again, if you ignore all patterns of use and success all you're left with is a personal opinion of what you think is a good or bad design. That's cool and all I guess. Don't see why your opinion on that is any better than another dudes though.

Interesting strawman you've built. Quite flimsy though
Your statement depends on quite a few assumptions
Oh please, nobody is buying that. All three of us were working within a simplified example to make a point. If we are going to expand the example to cover the full gamut of possibilities we should just expand the example to cover them all. End result is that there absolutely should be different strengths and weakness between builds. Specialize in certain areas and not others, be generalized and you're neither extra weak or extra strong for anything. We all know this.

If you had read my posts, youd know why I think turrets don't work for multiple levels and types of skill. You could address those specifically, but simply restating a position I've been debunking doesn't undo whatever I've said
You didn't debunk my positions, you disagreed with them. Who says who is really right? You sound like you think you're a lawyer trying a case before yourself as the judge.

OTHER shooter players. So you accept that Ember is a shooter then?
Yes, among other things. Plenty of variety and sub genre's that are shooters. Plenty of variety in expectations among them.

You know, somehow those of us who came late to the FPS genre and had to develop those skills on our own managed without the game doing the shooting for us.
Yeah great. Let the turret hater say stuff that will call in the AOE haters. You guys can then duke it out, telling everyone else what skill should look like.

Except turrets are at their worst in low end matches. New players are attempting to learn things with a skill curve and are matched up with people who get their damage dealt for them. This can be discouraging even in a PvE environment, where new players will essentially be carried by players with AI-based damage, until such a point that the reverse happens
You kind of have a point that the skill curve can be off kilter like that. Not that wanton AOE has much different effect. Or easy crowd control. or a few other things. Turrets aren't the only easy button that messes up the skill curve.

Please name the game where this is the case. Remember that games like Quake and CS exist, wherein players are expected to spin quite a number of plates. Same goes for your high skill requirement
It doesn't matter. "Too hard" is a matter of perspective. Not every game has the same skill expectation for their players. What one game sets as too hard for players another game may set at just fine.
 
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