Firefall's Spiritual Successor...?

[viikoreaux#8848]

Let me start by saying that I love Em-8ER and the ideas behind it. Mark Kern is a huge inspiration for me personally, and I genuinely, deeply respect and admire him and his ideas. I'm not attempting to flatter; I just wanted this to be understood before I give my feedback.

I loved Firefall. Deeply, intensely. It's one of the very few games that I look back on with sincerely happy memories and regret that it's not around anymore. In fact, I think it might be the only game. I know many of us here share the same sentiments; that's why we're here, waiting for Firefall's "spiritual successor."

I love Em-8ER and I feel it would make a wonderful game with its own standalone concept. However, there are a few things that being Firefall's spiritual successor obligate it to deliver.

Copacabana
The most prominent aspect of Firefall when I look back and remember the great times is Copacabana and the surrounding areas. I've heard that the world of Em-8ER will have a primarily Fire & Ice theme. That's neat, but it's not remotely a spiritual relative to Firefall. Copacabana and the surrounding areas were a hotspot of warmth and comfort in a world enthralled with conflict. The lighting, the atmosphere, the NPCs, the fires, the decorations, the bits of technology worked into a traditional beach-style setting, were all part of an environment which felt like home. It was relatable and downright inviting. It was masterfully designed, not just for its art and aesthetics, but for the impression and feeling it left on the players who visited and resided there.

I feel as though a true spiritual successor to Firefall must have its own type of Copacabana. It shouldn't, and obviously legally can't, be an exact duplicate of the original, and perhaps it can't even be overly similar. However, for Em-8ER to be completely lacking a town like Copa would be to betray its guarantee of being Firefall's spiritual successor. This town must be an oasis amidst the perilous nature of the planet Em-8ER and the conflicts therein. There needs to be warm, orange/amber lighting, technology worked into traditional architecture, fires, civilians, a marketplace, shops. I'm certain something like this is in the works, but getting any knowledge about it would go a long way in inspiring the interest of prospective backers, capturing the nostalgia of former Firefall players, and exciting current backers with memories of home.

Battleframe Scale Perspective
I've seen other users comment about the feeling of Battleframes in Firefall and how the current Em-8ER content fails to capture the essence of how it felt to pilot a battleframe. This has been weighing heavily on me for a few days, even as I tried the current demos.

The Omniframes of Em-8ER are enormous. To think that there's a light, medium, and heavy version is a little unsettling after seeing how large the medium one is. I'm very concerned about the design and especially the scale of the different omniframes and how they will translate to the player's interaction with the world. In Firefall, you had a person, a human being. This person was your avatar, and they wore armor which helped them in battle. Sometimes the armor was larger, sometimes it was smaller, but you could change out into whatever you wanted, and you could always see your human. In Em-8ER, your human is visible to others who view the front of your omniframe, but not to yourself. Since the extreme majority of gameplay will take place inside the player's omniframe, this presents a serious problem for a game claiming to be Firefall's spiritual successor.

The player's camera will be farther from the ground, there won't be any visible hair, clothing skins become moot and player avatar cosmetics become undervalued. The way the omniframes are designed currently leaves a Firefall fan with a lot to want for. I miss the exposed thighs on my female Assault. I miss the buff muscles on my male Engineer. I miss recoloring my hair to match my frame and accessorizing my entire character. I miss the aggressive bird-like look that gliding in a Recon frame gave me. In Em-8ER, I'm a stomping, thomping, giant robot, and if I'm not, then I'm an exposed target asking to die.

I understand the amount of work that went into the Em-8ER Ominframes and I appreciate them and think they're a great idea, but I don't think they should feature so prominently in the larger sizes. I feel as though, in order to be a true spiritual successor to Firefall, Light Omniframes will need to take a more forward stance in the game as the player's primary mode of transporation and weaponization, with Medium and Heavy Omniframes becoming more specialized and having steeper limitations or drawbacks. For example, a Raid team might have 1-2 Heavy Omniframes who serve as frontliners and which are piloted by highly skilled (as in skill points/whatever the progression system is) players, while the rest of the team are mostly in Medium and Light Omniframes.

There's a number of ways I could see this being accomplished, and I feel like this is an absolute necessity and inevitability if Em-8ER wishes to stay true to being Firefall's spiritual successor.

Some ways that this could work are:
Light Omniframes:

• Many available weapon types and specializations.
• Many different configurations / most customizable.
• Fastest and most mobile.
• Very small / roughly the size of Firefall battleframes, with large pieces of the character model being clearly human/the player's actual avatar.
• Varying degress of expensiveness of equipment or acquisition, from extremely inexpensive (basic/new player), to extremely expensive (specialized, experienced player/PvP-centric)

Medium Omniframes:

• Weapon systems and defensive systems structured into several rigid archetypes, such as Ranged DPS, Healer, Tank, Melee DPS.
• Slightly customizable, but not enough to overshadow the necessity and prominence of Light Omniframes.
• Moderately agile, enough to leap into the fray and serve their role.
• Sized as currently.
• Moderately expensive to equip and/or acquire, with players who wish to primarily use them being specialized mostly for PvE type encounters.
• Drawbacks in areas such as mobility, cost, or respawn/resummon timers such as to limit their presence in extended situations, especially in PvP and travel/exploration. This would limit them to being used mostly in individual PvE encounters.

Heavy Omniframes:

• 3 extremely rigid weapon and defensive system configurations: Ranged Artillery, Frontline Bulwark, and Crowd Support.
• Limited customization which is streamlined into specializing deeper into the above archetypes, and does not accommodate hybridization or cross-specialization in any way.
• Relatively immobile, slow moving, and requiring time to position and time to flee, leaving them vulnerable and requiring support from lighter frames.
• Larger sized, large enough to make several of them in the same area inconvenient.
• Very expensive to equip and/or acquire, and with piloting requirements that require the user to be specialized in heavy PvE/Raid content.
• Heavy drawbacks in mobility, cost, and respawn/resummon timers. Heavy frames should be piloted by invested, expert players, and having one go down should spell disaster for a raid team. There should be risk associated with the reward of piloting such an overpowered piece of equipment. That risk should be the loss of the encounter should the pilot go down.

Having mechanics like these in place would ensure that:

• PvP stays fair, rewarding, interactive, and cerebral.
• PvE stays exciting, risky, and captivating.
• Skilling your player requires planning for your endgame activities.
• Piloting more expensive and extravagant equipment is rewarding based on time and effort invested, and time and effort invested equates to having more powerful and rare capabilities as a pilot.
• PvE encounters are not exclusively dominated by experienced players who only use Heavy Omniframes.
• PvP enocunters are not exclusively determined by the number of frames in each size class.
• Game world exploration stays rewarding and immersive, with the player connecting to their avatar through their view of their human body navigating a dangerous and beautiful new world.
• Game world interaction stays coherent and realistic, with the player interacting with vendors and world objects as a human more than as a robot.

Edit: Clarity

 

[PartTimeJedi]

Let me start by saying that I love Em-8ER and the ideas behind it. Mark Kern is a huge inspiration for me personally, and I genuinely, deeply respect and admire him and his ideas. I'm not attempting to flatter; I just wanted this to be understood before I give my feedback.

I loved Firefall. Deeply, intensely. It's one of the very few games that I look back on with sincerely happy memories and regret that it's not around anymore. In fact, I think it might be the only game. I know many of us here share the same sentiments; that's why we're here, waiting for Firefall's "spiritual successor."

I love Em-8ER and I feel it would make a wonderful game with its own standalone concept. However, there are a few things that being Firefall's spiritual successor obligate it to deliver.

Copacabana
The most prominent aspect of Firefall when I look back and remember the great times is Copacabana and the surrounding areas. I've heard that the world of Em-8ER will have a primarily Fire & Ice theme. That's neat, but it's not remotely a spiritual relative to Firefall. Copacabana and the surrounding areas were a hotspot of warmth and comfort in a world enthralled with conflict. The lighting, the atmosphere, the NPCs, the fires, the decorations, the bits of technology worked into a traditional beach-style setting, were all part of an environment which felt like home. It was relatable and downright inviting. It was masterfully designed, not just for its art and aesthetics, but for the impression and feeling it left on the players who visited and resided there.

I feel as though a true spiritual successor to Firefall must have its own type of Copacabana. It shouldn't, and obviously legally can't, be an exact duplicate of the original, and perhaps it can't even be overly similar. However, for Em-8ER to be completely lacking a town like Copa would be to betray its guarantee of being Firefall's spiritual successor. This town must be an oasis amidst the perilous nature of the planet Em-8ER and the conflicts therein. There needs to be warm, orange/amber lighting, technology worked into traditional architecture, fires, civilians, a marketplace, shops. I'm certain something like this is in the works, but getting any knowledge about it would go a long way in inspiring the interest of prospective backers, capturing the nostalgia of former Firefall players, and exciting current backers with memories of home.

Battleframe Scale Perspective
I've seen other users comment about the feeling of Battleframes in Firefall and how the current Em-8ER content fails to capture the essence of how it felt to pilot a battleframe. This has been weighing heavily on me for a few days, even as I tried the current demos.

The Omniframes of Em-8ER are enormous. To think that there's a light, medium, and heavy version is a little unsettling after seeing how large the medium one is. I'm very concerned about the design and especially the scale of the different omniframes and how they will translate to the player's interaction with the world. In Firefall, you had a person, a human being. This person was your avatar, and they wore armor which helped them in battle. Sometimes the armor was larger, sometimes it was smaller, but you could change out into whatever you wanted, and you could always see your human. In Em-8ER, your human is visible to others who view the front of your omniframe, but not to yourself. Since the extreme majority of gameplay will take place inside the player's omniframe, this presents a serious problem for a game claiming to be Firefall's spiritual successor.

The player's camera will be farther from the ground, there won't be any visible hair, clothing skins become moot and player avatar cosmetics become undervalued. The way the omniframes are designed currently leaves a Firefall fan with a lot to want for. I miss the exposed thighs on my female Assault. I miss the buff muscles on my male Engineer. I miss recoloring my hair to match my frame and accessorizing my entire character. I miss the aggressive bird-like look that gliding in a Recon frame gave me. In Em-8ER, I'm a stomping, thomping, giant robot, and if I'm not, then I'm an exposed target asking to die.

I understand the amount of work that went into the Em-8ER Ominframes and I appreciate them and think they're a great idea, but I don't think they should feature so prominently in the larger sizes. I feel as though, in order to be a true spiritual successor to Firefall, Light Omniframes will need to take a more forward stance in the game as the player's primary mode of transporation and weaponization, with Medium and Heavy Omniframes becoming more specialized and having steeper limitations or drawbacks. For example, a Raid team might have 1-2 Heavy Omniframes who serve as frontliners and which are piloted by highly skilled (as in skill points/whatever the progression system is) players, while the rest of the team are mostly in Medium and Light Omniframes.

There's a number of ways I could see this being accomplished, and I feel like this is an absolute necessity and inevitability if Em-8ER wishes to stay true to being Firefall's spiritual successor.

Some ways that this could work are:
Light Omniframes:

• Many available weapon types and specializations.
• Many different configurations / most customizable.
• Fastest and most mobile.
• Very small / roughly the size of Firefall battleframes, with large pieces of the character model being clearly human/the player's actual avatar.
• Varying degress of expensiveness of equipment or acquisition, from extremely inexpensive (basic/new player), to extremely expensive (specialized, experienced player/PvP-centric)

Medium Omniframes:

• Weapon systems and defensive systems structured into several rigid archetypes, such as Ranged DPS, Healer, Tank, Melee DPS.
• Slightly customizable, but not enough to overshadow the necessity and prominence of Light Omniframes.
• Moderately agile, enough to leap into the fray and serve their role.
• Sized as currently.
• Moderately expensive to equip and/or acquire, with players who wish to primarily use them being specialized mostly for PvE type encounters.
• Drawbacks in areas such as mobility, cost, or respawn/resummon timers such as to limit their presence in extended situations, especially in PvP and travel/exploration. This would limit them to being used mostly in individual PvE encounters.

Heavy Omniframes:

• 3 extremely rigid weapon and defensive system configurations: Ranged Artillery, Frontline Bulwark, and Crowd Support.
• Limited customization which is streamlined into specializing deeper into the above archetypes, and does not accommodate hybridization or cross-specialization in any way.
• Relatively immobile, slow moving, and requiring time to position and time to flee, leaving them vulnerable and requiring support from lighter frames.
• Larger sized, large enough to make several of them in the same area inconvenient.
• Very expensive to equip and/or acquire, and with piloting requirements that require the user to be specialized in heavy PvE/Raid content.
• Heavy drawbacks in mobility, cost, and respawn/resummon timers. Heavy frames should be piloted by invested, expert players, and having one go down should spell disaster for a raid team. There should be risk associated with the reward of piloting such an overpowered piece of equipment. That risk should be the loss of the encounter should the pilot go down.

Having mechanics like these in place would ensure that:

• PvP stays fair, rewarding, interactive, and cerebral.
• PvE stays exciting, risky, and captivating.
• Skilling your player requires planning for your endgame activities.
• Piloting more expensive and extravagant equipment is rewarding based on time and effort invested, and time and effort invested equates to having more powerful and rare capabilities as a pilot.
• PvE encounters are not exclusively dominated by experienced players who only use Heavy Omniframes.
• PvP enocunters are not exclusively determined by the number of frames in each size class.
• Game world exploration stays rewarding and immersive, with the player connecting to their avatar through their view of their human body navigating a dangerous and beautiful new world.
• Game world interaction stays coherent and realistic, with the player interacting with vendors and world objects as a human more than as a robot.

Edit: Clarity

As a FF lover I understand your post. But 2 quick points.
1- I'm pretty sure the term spiritual successor is ment more to mean what FF was originally conceived as being and, not specificlly what we all got.
2- again, I'm pretty sure Grummz has mentioned there are no plans for PvP, but their may be personal "Dueling".

FF was a bright shiny gem in a sea of poop video games. 1.5 years of playing Beta was a treasured time for me. Many FF vets are wanting that ol' FF feeling in Em8er. I think we will get it, but it will be different and new.
I am not going into Em8er hoping for that specific FF experience again, but I am hoping for something better.

 

[MattHunX]

If I recall correctly, there won't be archetypes, as those are representative of the antiquated, WoW-type MMOs and Em-8ER is thankfully looking to breakaway from the "tried and true" pitfalls of that formula. So, while anyone will be free to gear their frame towards what could be considered an archetype, there will (have to) be extensive hybridization, so we can move as far away from the usual class-system as we can.

Obviously one of the pitfalls to avoid would be to prevent everyone from just building a tank that can dominate a whole area by themselves, as it happened in Firefall, where they made a mockery of a raid-boss and killed it in seconds with their ridiculously overpowered gear and abilities. THAT has to be prevented, so even the newest, unskilled, amateur grunts won't have to feel like absolute punching bags and dead-weights standing around, slack-jawed, while everything explodes around from the actions of a select, elite few. So while building towards e.g.: an archetype of that kind would be possible, it ought to have drawbacks, trade-offs and it should be seriously lacking in certain areas, so that it wouldn't be able to handle absolutely every situation.

And this is coming from someone who prefers to play solo, unless the situation/event demands a concerted effort. Maybe area-events, like the nados used to be, won't be the only ones where one will have to rely on more than their frame's capabilities. I'm not, in any way, suggesting that there should be content/missions/side-jobs...etc. that could only be completed by a group with a diverse-enough skill-set, but since they'll be going for a more horizontal progression, instead of a vertical one, working toward archetypes, especially ones more prone to unbalancing/being broken/OP should be discouraged.

"I miss the exposed thighs on my female Assault." Well, that's not very realistic, though. Is it. It's fetching. But, it's impractical for combat.

 

[Mahdi]

What? No being able to stand in melding with auto heal keeping you alive? No 100% up time on the raptor's special ability? NO FUN!!

...juuuust kidding.

*edit*
I was ok with tiger tigerclaw and firecat perma flight.

Understand things will/can still be broke and OP as development goes. With that being said, I don't mind seeing changes from the team that create new direction (nerfing/buffing) of metas. This only encourages playing the game even at a minor cost of frustration. People will get over it. Between that and the open ability for crafting to one's playstyles, will break away from those archetypes. Customization options are key to keeping gamers involved.

Jedi hit it perfect with his explanation of 'spiritual successor'. Em-8ER isn't supposed to be a 2020's shiny newer version of firefall. This project is meant to STAY built for the players and keep its soul free of marketing schemes (although oft contested in other threads already). The vision seen at firefall's birth is what Em-8ER is returning to. Not what firefall became.

 

[Pandagnome]

The most prominent aspect of Firefall when I look back and remember the great times is Copacabana and the surrounding areas. I've heard that the world of Em-8ER will have a primarily Fire & Ice theme. That's neat, but it's not remotely a spiritual relative to Firefall.

Biomes many biomes we must explore them all !

 

[Faeryl]

Hey @viikoreaux#8848 !! A LOT of us here are Firefall Refugees. The plan has been from the beginning for Grummz to bring back everything that was fun about early closed beta Firefall, while leaving out everything that wasn't.

As others have said, Em-8ER is the spiritual successor of Firefall; and it will have all the FUN elements from Firefall: gliding, jetpacking, thumping, crafting, and ... invasions!

From Grummz himself on July 6, 2019 in Discord ...

Grummz: Firefall was like no other MMO. Em-8ER is based on that. Movement gliding, jets, skill, true shooting action and a world in a constant state of dynamic invasion.

Also, I HIGHLY recommend checking out the Vision Book. As an Em-8ER Backer, you have access in your Downloads to the PDF version of this design document.

In that book, Grummz shares his vision for Em-8ER. It has a section on Omniframes and talks about the "classless design" (it's mentioned on page 14 of the PDF). There's also a section on Lore, Invasions, Base Building, Terraforming and Mining, Resources and Crafting, and ... most importantly, Kaiju!!

For those who may be reading this and are not YET a backer, there is a FREE unedited version of the Vision Book right here on the forums:
https://forums.em8er.com/forums/vision-book-project-proofing.28/

I hope this helps!! CHEERS!!
~ Faeryl

 

[viikoreaux#8848]

I’m not the biggest fan of what Firefall “became” either, but my point was not to insist that Em-8ER be a Firefall 2. Rather, to express emphasis on the necessity of certain environmental qualities that Em-8ER will need if it hopes to match or surpass Firefall in terms of making a player feel a personal connection to the world. In Firefall, this was Copacabana and what I described as Battelframe scale perspective. In Em-8ER, there needs to be similar aspects, or players will feel like cold robots wandering through a heartless and harsh world. While it will seem cool for a while, it will lack the personal connection which results in player retention, especially if there’s no PvP, which I’m troubled to hear. I’ve heard that before and I don’t reasonably expect the final game to lack PvP.

Regarding class archetypes, while it’s certainly grand and idealistic to want a game which breaks the “meta” and has no class archetypes, I don’t think it’s actually possible. Even in early closed betas, original Firefall tried to do this and failed. There was a lot of cool and unique stuff! But there were still archetypes, and I think there always will be.

MMO class archetypes weren’t arbitrarily created overnight by someone who wanted to make all the rules. They were developed over years and across several different games until some major companies saw the efficiency in simply building class systems around them. In any game wherein you have stats to stack and abilities to complement each other, builds will always inevitably min/max in the most efficient ways possible by very serious players. This will always lead to increased specialization as “hybridized” builds become refined to excel in particular areas. Clans will get together and devise teams and strategies. They will have healers, who only heal, and they’ll have frontliners who only frontline, and DPSers who only DPS, because having 2+2+4 of these will always be mathematically superior to having 10 who do all 3. The only way for this to not be so is to establish limits on power scaling, which will reduce build diversity, rather than increase it.

This is especially true for a PvE environment. Hybridization most commonly influences PvP more than PvE because players will gravitate, again, towards the greatest possible efficiency. This will mean managing their damage output and survivability and mobility to create a build where they feel 1) powerful enough to achieve a kill, 2) safe enough to survive an encounter, and 3) fast enough to gtfo if they need to. PvP will encourage cross-specialization as players try to counter and break the meta in new and intuitive ways.

PvE is anti-meta, and this is inherent in the design of AI. A computer can always be understood and will always be beaten. Humans are infinitely more efficient and will find calculated ways to make “Extreme” difficulty seem like “Easy” difficulty. To make an argument that Em-8ER will be PvE only AND also have no class archetypes is very self contradictory, as class archetypes thrive most prominently in PvE content where the human equation is made most efficient for defeating an AI as quickly as possible to grind out as much rewards as possible.

 

[Mahdi]

Sigh....the pvp vs pve argument about Em-8ER again.

Anyone who played the hell out of firefall understood the customization of metas in the pve world. There will always be a best build no matter what you want to see in a game. The more players, the more coverage, the more streamers and wicki that will get people to aim for "best in slot" mind set. No avoiding that. But Em-8ER will also have successful builds for anyone that just wants to have fun. Someone who has all the time in the world is supposed to be the best and have the greatest. Casual players can still come in and enjoy all the game's elements too.

Depending on the success, I know there will be some form of pvp brought into Em-8ER. Dueling is all that is planned for now. Know that is the goal coming in and leave it alone. Got a pvp itch? Play one of the 17 rehashed call of duties. I do see an instanced arena for team death matches waaaay down the road because pvp will bring in more players. But pvp will have more arguments of what is broke and what OP than pve ever will. That is a form of toxicity I don't want to even see on here.

Most of the early community here knows I despise pvp. If any of that world leaks into Em-8ER's open world, I will walk away that same day.

 

[viikoreaux#8848]

Sigh....the pvp vs pve argument about Em-8ER again.

Anyone who played the hell out of firefall understood the customization of metas in the pve world. There will always be a best build no matter what you want to see in a game. The more players, the more coverage, the more streamers and wicki that will get people to aim for "best in slot" mind set. No avoiding that. But Em-8ER will also have successful builds for anyone that just wants to have fun. Someone who has all the time in the world is supposed to be the best and have the greatest. Casual players can still come in and enjoy all the game's elements too.

Depending on the success, I know there will be some form of pvp brought into Em-8ER. Dueling is all that is planned for now. Know that is the goal coming in and leave it alone. Got a pvp itch? Play one of the 17 rehashed call of duties. I do see an instanced arena for team death matches waaaay down the road because pvp will bring in more players. But pvp will have more arguments of what is broke and what OP than pve ever will. That is a form of toxicity I don't want to even see on here.

Most of the early community here knows I despise pvp. If any of that world leaks into Em-8ER's open world, I will walk away that same day.

PvP is a harsh experience and it can leave a lot of players feeling angry and bitter if conducted poorly. However, to compare MMO PvP to Call of Duty is completely asinine and frankly insulting. The best PvP is that which is conducted in a cerebrally compelling environment, with systems to learn and strategies to devise. PvP is not about wildly screaming on comms and noobstomping like a child. It's about sportsmanly and consensual player competition. Or that's what it should be about, anyway.

Under no circumstances should non-consensual PvP exist in the open world of any MMO. I don't want to see PvP in the open world of Em-8ER, either. I am a PvP-centric player and I oppose forcing content on players who do not wish to partake in it; including PvP.

However, I see PvP as the basis for all gaming. Even early arcade games had scoreboards for players to compete. PvP is an inseparable aspect of the complete MMO experience, and to have an MMO without PvP would be to have an incomplete MMO, from a business standpoint as well as a gameplay standpoint. I quite liked the open world PvP zone from release Firefall and wouldn't oppose something like that existing in the game; a separate opt-in zone where players can compete consensually in an environment designed for it, with rewards relevant to the broad game as well as that specific activity.

Also, I don't particularly find your statements to be on the topic of my OP. PvP only relates to the topic of this thread in that it relates to build archetypes and meta influence, and the impact this has on the player's personal connection with the world. PvP is an inevitability; this thread isn't about why there should be PvP.

 

[PartTimeJedi]

Just a thought on PvP
I think the reason many are tired of even hearing PvP mentioned in Em8er at this early stage is most likely due to the fact that in a sense Em8er is hoping to be the anti-PvP shooter mmo. All the fun without the toxicity and genericsisms that go along with PvP shooters.
Plus from what I've gathered over the past couple years here, even if some sort of PvP arena, area, whatever is ever even implemented, its so far down the line in Em8ers future that it's a null subject.
Plus I think it rubs people the wrong way even discussing topics that would deviate any resources from the all important goal of just getting Em8er the PvE Mech vs Kajiu mmo shooter made in the first place.
But what do I know.. peace

 

[viikoreaux#8848]

Just a thought on PvP
I think the reason many are tired of even hearing PvP mentioned in Em8er at this early stage is most likely due to the fact that in a sense Em8er is hoping to be the anti-PvP shooter mmo. All the fun without the toxicity and genericsisms that go along with PvP shooters.
Plus from what I've gathered over the past couple years here, even if some sort of PvP arena, area, whatever is ever even implemented, its so far down the line in Em8ers future that it's a null subject.
Plus I think it rubs people the wrong way even discussing topics that would deviate any resources from the all important goal of just getting Em8er the PvE Mech vs Kajiu mmo shooter made in the first place.
But what do I know.. peace

The only reason I mentioned PvP is because it will inevitably affect the way the game is designed, and I felt that the ways in which it will affect the game's design were relevant to my points regarding my second topic of discussion: player scale and perspective. Because player scale and perspective are related to the sizes of omniframes, and the use of omniframes are related to game balance, player accessibility to a world to which they feel connected will be inevitably influenced by decisions made to balance the game, both in terms of PvP and PvE.

I should point out that there have been almost no PvP shooter MMOs. I can think of only one in history: Global Agenda, and it had a thriving and cooperative playerbase without any more toxicity than any other game, and died due to developer abandonment, and for no other reason. There already is an anti-PvP shooter MMO and it's Warframe.

Nevertheless, my mentioning of PvP was not in any way to discuss the nature, inclusion, or existence of PvP in Em8ER. It was merely an acknowledgement of the inevitable existence of PvP, and a suggestion/feedback regarding how frame size classes should hopefully be balanced in a way that makes the game fun, immersive, and relatable, and how doing so might possibly look in respect to all possible player activities.

 

[Pandagnome]

In Em-8ER, there needs to be similar aspects, or players will feel like cold robots wandering through a heartless and harsh world.

Sounds more like the tsi-hu our meks will be of various styles and the world will all depend on what biomes we enter. Another thing been able to play as the pilot not only gives us that oh i am vulnerable.

What if you wanted to hop into a vehicle or get a lift from a friendly dropship. Playing as a pilot would be equally fun. I know that meks are what helps us to survive the harsh conditions there will be times where we may not be in meks and that is going to be interesting how we take cover behind other meks, using environment or abandoned buildings etc.

A computer can always be understood and will always be beaten. Humans are infinitely more efficient and will find calculated ways to make “Extreme” difficulty seem like “Easy” difficulty.

Yes A.I can be smart but Humans are unpredictable now imagine an A.I that can be done good add a learning behavior from many many battles to tackle many scenario imagine if it even retreated and set up a trap, calculate how to challenge just enough would this be based on players ranks.

Input some human behaviour lets say a dev who plays a certain way add that to the A.i and in special events the dev plays completely differently and others would think that is it but the dev has sneaky tactics and not to underestimate the A.I because they could switch and the A.I is the dev and the dev is the A.I dunnn dunnn dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Ok maybe that might happen if it did that would be funny and annoying but challenging and annoying!!!

PvP is a harsh experience and it can leave a lot of players feeling angry and bitter if conducted poorly

Even if conducted great it can leave anger and bitterness unless it was done in a way with friends.
Still with most competitive game the satisfaction is of winning or getting that skill over another player.

I like pvp in l4d2 because vomiting on survivors is very satisfying and when you play as a survivor saving other survivors is satisfying also.


Enjoy rage quitting too because that lets me say hey i spoiled your game because you didn't finish it
and switched into my team and killed our survivor! (Left 4 dead 2)

I can think of only one in history: Global Agenda,

That was a nice game it had alot of drama too especially with the big teams i was lucky to have got a nice hologram helmet it was a beauty those rewards were very nice.

I did think some folks were turd heads because they had big egos but some were very helpful and actually explained, just depends what kind of player your going to be teaming up with.

Generally i thought pvp was stressful the winning at all cost, the shouting in the mic and the ragequit because someone misheard a direction and did something else.

As much as pvp is fun there is alot of pressure when it comes to the competition of winning zones and building facilities to make vindicators and so on.


Ultimately players will annoy other players it is done ever since competitions began the trash talking, the trolling of the opposite team in public games where they mess the game up making you lose points overall etc etc

PvP with friends i can understand and most pvp games are filled with angry kids or angry adults maybe angry fathers because of their angry mothers who are angry at their computer with their angry community.

I like pve there is that global achievement its that joint community spirit instead of pvp where you call someone a doodie mcnoodle fart prune cow orifice etc etc but some may call you that in pve too.

i have yet to be called that so pve seems to be a good experience more so than from what i have had in pvp.

 

[viikoreaux#8848]

Sounds more like the tsi-hu our meks will be of various styles and the world will all depend on what biomes we enter. Another thing been able to play as the pilot not only gives us that oh i am vulnerable.

What if you wanted to hop into a vehicle or get a lift from a friendly dropship. Playing as a pilot would be equally fun. I know that meks are what helps us to survive the harsh conditions there will be times where we may not be in meks and that is going to be interesting how we take cover behind other meks, using environment or abandoned buildings etc.




Yes A.I can be smart but Humans are unpredictable now imagine an A.I that can be done good add a learning behavior from many many battles to tackle many scenario imagine if it even retreated and set up a trap, calculate how to challenge just enough would this be based on players ranks.

Input some human behaviour lets say a dev who plays a certain way add that to the A.i and in special events the dev plays completely differently and others would think that is it but the dev has sneaky tactics and not to underestimate the A.I because they could switch and the A.I is the dev and the dev is the A.I dunnn dunnn dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Ok maybe that might happen if it did that would be funny and annoying but challenging and annoying!!!



Even if conducted great it can leave anger and bitterness unless it was done in a way with friends.
Still with most competitive game the satisfaction is of winning or getting that skill over another player.

I like pvp in l4d2 because vomiting on survivors is very satisfying and when you play as a survivor saving other survivors is satisfying also.


Enjoy rage quitting too because that lets me say hey i spoiled your game because you didn't finish it
and switched into my team and killed our survivor! (Left 4 dead 2)



That was a nice game it had alot of drama too especially with the big teams i was lucky to have got a nice hologram helmet it was a beauty those rewards were very nice.

I did think some folks were turd heads because they had big egos but some were very helpful and actually explained, just depends what kind of player your going to be teaming up with.

Generally i thought pvp was stressful the winning at all cost, the shouting in the mic and the ragequit because someone misheard a direction and did something else.

As much as pvp is fun there is alot of pressure when it comes to the competition of winning zones and building facilities to make vindicators and so on.


Ultimately players will annoy other players it is done ever since competitions began the trash talking, the trolling of the opposite team in public games where they mess the game up making you lose points overall etc etc

PvP with friends i can understand and most pvp games are filled with angry kids or angry adults maybe angry fathers because of their angry mothers who are angry at their computer with their angry community.

I like pve there is that global achievement its that joint community spirit instead of pvp where you call someone a doodie mcnoodle fart prune cow orifice etc etc but some may call you that in pve too.

i have yet to be called that so pve seems to be a good experience more so than from what i have had in pvp.

Hahaha, I really like your responses. Yes, some people behave very unsportsmanlike. I think what it really boils down to is having the capacity to accept this, mute people, and move forward with friends/teams that you actually like to be around.

GA had a wonderful thing going for it with the competitive AVA. But just like in real life sports, you’ll always have cliques who think they’re better than everyone else.

And I have indeed witnessed this in PvE circles; guilds who require x gear because they can only accept running raids within the top 5% fastest speeds, or else. Or circles which absolutely hate PvPers on some sort of distorted principle alone, and feel themselves superior to those “toxic PvP kids” and often compare PvPers to CoD players.

The truth is that the MMO experience should appeal to all players of all walks, and everyone, PvPer or PvEer, is capable of being kind or caustic.

 

[Pandagnome]

The truth is that the MMO experience should appeal to all players of all walks, and everyone, PvPer or PvEer, is capable of being kind or caustic.

I'd be much happier if the focus is on pve, then if the Em8er team is well established perhaps pvp that could be a thing down the road who knows.

Otherwise the priorities could be all over the place and pvp can even be done on another biome so there is that, and the option of a separate pvp biomes a paradise for pvp open world.

Yes muting and all can go so far, could just create another character to annoy again it is like a mosquito you get rid of one and another is bound to appear again !!!

have indeed witnessed this in PvE circles; guilds who require x gear because they can only accept running raids within the top 5% fastest speeds, or else

Those groups.... tried to get in one of those with my lowbie items got in and got booted out was good for about 10 seconds.

So decided it was best to look into a group that were not jerks, in the end really couldn't find one because either the group was overly saturated with players.

That then formed their own little group within that group and had no time to help.
Some groups where afk, shell groups, and the players active in some group are in another time zone!

Made me wonder we are rewarded for killing, for doing things fast, what about rewards for surviving in a high risk area, exploring, collecting, and even construction etc etc etc

E.g. If you explored all biomes available you could have Achievement Observer and your eyes would have an effect with holographic scans to gather information to your data library.

If you already seen the place and what it has already you can get little hints toggled on or off so when you mouse over or look at it would appear something like this cat has an aubergine hat trade priority.

With construction if you build a set amount you could get achievement Creator and your engineer construction would have slightly faster construction speed with spark effects.

What if you were to save many lives with achievement Saviour and each time you heal you have a heal aura appearing with a spinning chroma halo above the head.

I like the idea of earning achievements and getting effects or something useful that helps the player in the game even if it is a little help that anyone can get for different play styles.

I loved global agenda there colony area with the little robots in the vast desert that was really nice and the boss with the laser Big eye. If only they just kept updating and really put the focus on the game that would of been superb but nope :O

There was even rumors of Global agenda 2 at one time suppose that is all rumors and now it is just Smite and games i am not into blaaaaaagh

Em8er game will be our new firefall our new global agenda and we will have to be careful of the bigger threats who like to eat our bases !!!!!

 

[Shanie]

Global Agenda, and it had a thriving and cooperative playerbase without any more toxicity than any other game, and died due to developer abandonment, and for no other reason.

I just want to comment on Global Agenda. Hi-Rez royally fucked up Global Agenda. It became a joke because they began catering to one crowd: No levels (gear points-based) Light Party instance PVE with TF2-style PVP and Agency vs Agency, and then royally botched it, first by adding levels and colored World of Warcraft gear, then by wasting immense time and resources on their ultimately barren "open world" outside of the Dome. It was hacked together, it was poor, and it was a waste of resources that nobody only an irrelevant, vocal minority cared about. The zone outside the Dome, pretending they could become an open-world MMO, effectively killed the game. They became elves when the rule was ≥NO ELVES≤.

That's what killed Global Agenda.

Moral of the Story: Stick to your objective and don't scope creep yourself into irrelevancy.

 

[Pandagnome]

I just want to comment on Global Agenda. Hi-Rez royally fucked up Global Agenda. It became a joke because they began catering to one crowd: No levels (gear points-based) Light Party instance PVE with TF2-style PVP and Agency vs Agency, and then royally botched it, first by adding levels and colored World of Warcraft gear, then by wasting immense time and resources on their ultimately barren "open world" outside of the Dome. It was hacked together, it was poor, and it was a waste of resources that nobody only an irrelevant, vocal minority cared about. The zone outside the Dome, pretending they could become an open-world MMO, effectively killed the game. They became elves when the rule was ≥NO ELVES≤.

That's what killed Global Agenda.

Moral of the Story: Stick to your objective and don't scope creep yourself into irrelevancy.

Good news though there is Em8er !!!!!!!!!!

 

[viikoreaux#8848]

I just want to comment on Global Agenda. Hi-Rez royally fucked up Global Agenda. It became a joke because they began catering to one crowd: No levels (gear points-based) Light Party instance PVE with TF2-style PVP and Agency vs Agency, and then royally botched it, first by adding levels and colored World of Warcraft gear, then by wasting immense time and resources on their ultimately barren "open world" outside of the Dome. It was hacked together, it was poor, and it was a waste of resources that nobody only an irrelevant, vocal minority cared about. The zone outside the Dome, pretending they could become an open-world MMO, effectively killed the game. They became elves when the rule was ≥NO ELVES≤.

That's what killed Global Agenda.

Moral of the Story: Stick to your objective and don't scope creep yourself into irrelevancy.

Yeah, like I said haha. The developers made a very successful early game, fostered a beautiful, extremely balanced, competitive PvP environment, then someone made the tragic yet common decision to steer the game in a direction to make as much money in as little time as possible, and then they folded their deck and moved on to SMITE with the money they milked from NO ELVES, GA Serious PvPers, and the unfortunate souls who purchased TRIBES: ASCEND.

Anyway we’re way off topic at this point lmao

 

[viikoreaux#8848]

I'd be much happier if the focus is on pve, then if the Em8er team is well established perhaps pvp that could be a thing down the road who knows.

Otherwise the priorities could be all over the place and pvp can even be done on another biome so there is that, and the option of a separate pvp biomes a paradise for pvp open world.

Yes muting and all can go so far, could just create another character to annoy again it is like a mosquito you get rid of one and another is bound to appear again !!!



Those groups.... tried to get in one of those with my lowbie items got in and got booted out was good for about 10 seconds.

So decided it was best to look into a group that were not jerks, in the end really couldn't find one because either the group was overly saturated with players.

That then formed their own little group within that group and had no time to help.
Some groups where afk, shell groups, and the players active in some group are in another time zone!

Made me wonder we are rewarded for killing, for doing things fast, what about rewards for surviving in a high risk area, exploring, collecting, and even construction etc etc etc

E.g. If you explored all biomes available you could have Achievement Observer and your eyes would have an effect with holographic scans to gather information to your data library.

If you already seen the place and what it has already you can get little hints toggled on or off so when you mouse over or look at it would appear something like this cat has an aubergine hat trade priority.

With construction if you build a set amount you could get achievement Creator and your engineer construction would have slightly faster construction speed with spark effects.

What if you were to save many lives with achievement Saviour and each time you heal you have a heal aura appearing with a spinning chroma halo above the head.

I like the idea of earning achievements and getting effects or something useful that helps the player in the game even if it is a little help that anyone can get for different play styles.

I loved global agenda there colony area with the little robots in the vast desert that was really nice and the boss with the laser Big eye. If only they just kept updating and really put the focus on the game that would of been superb but nope :O

There was even rumors of Global agenda 2 at one time suppose that is all rumors and now it is just Smite and games i am not into blaaaaaagh

Em8er game will be our new firefall our new global agenda and we will have to be careful of the bigger threats who like to eat our bases !!!!!

I love your enthusiasm, mate. I can’t wait for Em-8ER and I think the planned direction for the game will be rewarding to players who wish to reap rewards simply from enjoying the game world, exploring, and derive achievements from the simple fun of playing the game. Original Firefall, back in the old Closed Beta days, was very much like this.

I’m excited for what the future brings; I just hope I feel more like a human than a robot. It seems we’ve come full circle back to the point of my OP haha

 

[Pandagnome]

I’m excited for what the future brings; I just hope I feel more like a human than a robot. It seems we’ve come full circle back to the point of my OP haha

The perfect feel can be a cyborg half human half machine

all POWER

What i really like abut Em8er is how it is gradually done, finding out the issues, bugs with the support of the community too.

We are also the testers and being part of that makes me think once that is fixed then there is more good stuff to come and yet more things to be fixed perhaps.

As long as those issues get nipped in the bud or as some people/crabs like to say butt then when the game is released, it will be smooth as a mech gliding across sandy beaches to hand out some sunscreen!

 

[FenrisAmarok]

I'm still of the mind that when games attempt to focus on making sure everyone is a hybrid with no class roles, everything becomes a DPS race right from the beginning. Guild Wars 2 was a prime example of this. It marketed itself as creating a new holy trinity of Damage, Control and Support, but never fleshed out or made viable anything but damage. So literally from the beginning of the game's launch, dungeon parties were solely dps builds. While I loved that every class had it's own heal skills, that also meant that there was zero need for healers. If you couldn't kill it before it killed you, just use your emergency heal button and get back to DPSing.

While I think games like wow do get quite boring after awhile (i'm just now quitting classic wow), that was because of the repetitive and un-rewarding end game. Having to keep your tank alive as a healer, or being careful not to out-threat your tank as a DPS, or just struggling to keep hold of enemy's attention as a tank, those were all really engaging until everyone got geared enough that nothing was an issue. At any other point in the game, if you messed up your role, it meant either you or the whole party dying. There were consequences to not playing your part and rarely could anyone save themselves without working together.

What I really don't want Em8er "teamwork" to become is people barely interacting with each and just blowing things away without a care in the world. Honestly, even firefall was like this. No content I every reached ever needed a medic or dragonfly. For me, it made it so I couldn't play the way I wanted without being a useless burden to everyone else.