Another thing that made FireFall (perhaps) unique

[MattHunX]

After seeing crap like WoW, those Star Wars MMOs and playing ones I liked e.g.: DEFIANCE, TERA, instantly being disappointed with ArcheAge...etc. the thing that all of those seemed to lack that Firefall had done right was freedom of movement. Vertical movement, in particular. How many games are there, in MMO, where one can freely jet-pack around, climb cliffs, trees and shoot from there, then reposition just as swiftly? That PlanetSide 2 crap, with the grappling thing, doesn't count. The movement in that game is so sluggish I'm surprised anyone can tolerate it...and that it ever saw the light of day.

What Ember needs to retain, especially if it's going to be a spiritual successor, is the same freedom of movement. And not just for the player, but for NPCs and creatures, both hostile and otherwise. Make use of it in encounters and "missions/quests". Design the environment so that the beings populating the world can explore it and scale it all for tactical advantage, cover, PvE achievements, scavenging and for fun. Or because some creatures live up there. They don't need any other reason to be up in certain places. They don't need to explain themselves to us. Leave 'em be. Or don't.

EDIT: Forgot to add realistic distances.

In Firefall the distances that are shown to you on the HUD are twice what they should be. e.g.: 200 meters in the game looks like it should only be half of that. This would also help with gauging the range of weapons and abilities better and estimate distance when exploring perilous heights...etc.

 

[DeyjaVou]

I'd imagine Ember designers reading this would say "of course" ;D

Every version of Firefall was unique and amazing enough in its own right to dominate the market if it had enough playable content. Yes, even post-launch level versions. The main reason we put down 1.0, 1.3+, and 1.6+, is that the systems that came before them were far more revolutionary. But if all we saw was 1.0, and the team worked on it for as long as they had for the entire game, what would have come out of it would still have been amazing.

World of Warcraft with guns, yes, but also physics based combat and a level of verticality that does not exist in other games of that scale. Given enough development time any version of Firefall could have ousted World of Warcraft, in my opinion.

Here and now we're taking the best parts of it and putting our efforts into that.

 

[Pandagnome]

I like the big trucks in ff especially hitting the bugs/npc's and making them fly or bounce
could never squish the npc's they seemed to go through the truck hmmm

 

[Squid Boss]

I was done well in GA as well.

After playing FF I feel it was at times a negative for FF. Not that it is a bad thing to have but I often used it to entirely negate any threat from AI in almost every scenario.

Need AI that can deal with it is all or methods to disrupt it from being OP as I found it to be against most enemies.

 

[Hybelkaninen]

City of Heros/Villains had pretty good freedom of movement too, superjump, superspeed, flying and teleportation.
But movement was a tad bit limited during combat though.

 

[NitroMidgets]

The jump jets were fun when the game started but when the players movement got slowed down it made the Bunny Hop the only viable option when it came to combat.

 

[Beerdog6]

definitely echo the vertical movement. Being able to think and fight in three dimensions was one of the things that made the game for me. Being able to drop into combat. Able to climb to the top of a tower. Survey the battle and glide in or drop in an fire on the way down.

 

[Kouyioue]

I think what made it unique was that it had a global chat.
.. . . . . . THAT WASN'T JUST A GLORIFIED SPAMBOX FOR BUY/SELL/TRADE AND LFGs ! ! !

It would be lovely to have that kind of thing again
Almost all of the MMOs that I had previously experimented with either had NO global zone chat at all, so players ended up feeling utterly alone unless they were in the same area. Or the game had too many damn zones, so trying to stay in touch with anyone was pointless anyways. And they were always STONE SILENT WHEN FILTERED because they were only used to spam buy/sell/trade and LFGs so nobody ended up using chat. period.

 

[Vladplaya]

Jump jets... mmm I have love/hate relationship with them. On one hand, its absolutely awesome to be able to jet around the terrain and hope from place to place, on other hand, as already been pointed out, it made a lot of AI and exploration, pretty trivial.

There were few discussion back in the days on FF forum about different way jump jets could be reworked so the mechanic is more engaging. I kinda like the idea of instead of having a constant burn for certain duration, it would be more a quick but forceful boost. I feel like that would give that mechanic more depth in combat. But then again, I did enjoy long lasting boosters that pretty much allowed you to fly for a bit.

Maybe Ember can have different versions of jump jets, and maybe even an option to go without jump jets at all, but maybe have really fast running speed and grapple hook? Anyways, I am all about diversity, as long as it fits the gameplay and the theme of the game.

 

[MattHunX]

I was done well in GA as well.

After playing FF I feel it was at times a negative for FF. Not that it is a bad thing to have but I often used it to entirely negate any threat from AI in almost every scenario.

Need AI that can deal with it is all or methods to disrupt it from being OP as I found it to be against most enemies.

Yes. Agree.

It is why I said they should not only make certain AI controlled creatures have certain preferences when it comes to living and being in certain places, but make (almost if not all) beings in the world Ember be able to take advantage of the environment to some degree.

 

[MattHunX]

Jump jets... mmm I have love/hate relationship with them. On one hand, its absolutely awesome to be able to jet around the terrain and hope from place to place, on other hand, as already been pointed out, it made a lot of AI and exploration, pretty trivial.

There were few discussion back in the days on FF forum about different way jump jets could be reworked so the mechanic is more engaging. I kinda like the idea of instead of having a constant burn for certain duration, it would be more a quick but forceful boost. I feel like that would give that mechanic more depth in combat. But then again, I did enjoy long lasting boosters that pretty much allowed you to fly for a bit.

Maybe Ember can have different versions of jump jets, and maybe even an option to go without jump jets at all, but maybe have really fast running speed and grapple hook? Anyways, I am all about diversity, as long as it fits the gameplay and the theme of the game.

While I absolutely love the system in FF, I could also go with short, quick burst, like the dash or air-dash moves in many franchises. I always loved those. Hopping up on cliffs with burst of speed or dodging attack, quickly dashing to the side, or up, or back down. The more energy ones has, the more they can dodge.

And all of that, of course, should differ with every manufacturer or frame part one might choose. Or a mix between what FF has and dashes. Different kinds of propulsion for different omni-frame builds.

 

[Daynen]

The trick to jumpjets is that including them means the world has to be designed around the notion that every player has them. If you make jump jets an optional part of our builds, then the world can be much more densely packed with things since not everyone will be flying. It's a crucial and fundamental design choice that has to be made early.

Personally I like jump jets, but I would also appreciate the ability to build an omniframe without them, instead focusing on movespeed, vehicles, or forego speed altogether and just bring pure firepower and armor like a walking can of war.

I would also really enjoy a sort of dual purpose jump jet that was intended for horizontal movement as much as vertical. FF's jumpjets are always providing upward thrust; horizontal movement is rather incidental to your jets. A game which demonstrates this is Armored Core (not ACV though; that game blew it.) If activated while standing still, you jumped and jetted upwards and could then maneuver. If activated while moving, you went from running to skimming along the ground and could tap them again to push off and get airborne. It may feel weird at first, but I grew so accustomed to it that I miss that functionality in every other similar game.

We already practice our 'bunny hop' technique to move fast without ascending; why not just make skimming a jumpjet feature?

 

[MattHunX]

The trick to jumpjets is that including them means the world has to be designed around the notion that every player has them. If you make jump jets an optional part of our builds, then the world can be much more densely packed with things since not everyone will be flying. It's a crucial and fundamental design choice that has to be made early.

Personally I like jump jets, but I would also appreciate the ability to build an omniframe without them, instead focusing on movespeed, vehicles, or forego speed altogether and just bring pure firepower and armor like a walking can of war.

I would also really enjoy a sort of dual purpose jump jet that was intended for horizontal movement as much as vertical. FF's jumpjets are always providing upward thrust; horizontal movement is rather incidental to your jets. A game which demonstrates this is Armored Core (not ACV though; that game blew it.) If activated while standing still, you jumped and jetted upwards and could then maneuver. If activated while moving, you went from running to skimming along the ground and could tap them again to push off and get airborne. It may feel weird at first, but I grew so accustomed to it that I miss that functionality in every other similar game.

We already practice our 'bunny hop' technique to move fast without ascending; why not just make skimming a jumpjet feature?

When I started playing FF, I thought that's what they meant by air-sprint, that one used the jet-pack while running to propel themselves forward, skimming the ground.

And agree. The burst should push one in the direction they initially started to move. We could even use it to dash downward and into an enemy, body-slamming and stunning and/or knocking down more human-sized opponent. But, of course, it is far easier to just imagine and talk about moves like this, than it is to actually make them work in-game.

 

[TankHunter678]

The trick to jumpjets is that including them means the world has to be designed around the notion that every player has them. If you make jump jets an optional part of our builds, then the world can be much more densely packed with things since not everyone will be flying. It's a crucial and fundamental design choice that has to be made early.

Personally I like jump jets, but I would also appreciate the ability to build an omniframe without them, instead focusing on movespeed, vehicles, or forego speed altogether and just bring pure firepower and armor like a walking can of war.

I would also really enjoy a sort of dual purpose jump jet that was intended for horizontal movement as much as vertical. FF's jumpjets are always providing upward thrust; horizontal movement is rather incidental to your jets. A game which demonstrates this is Armored Core (not ACV though; that game blew it.) If activated while standing still, you jumped and jetted upwards and could then maneuver. If activated while moving, you went from running to skimming along the ground and could tap them again to push off and get airborne. It may feel weird at first, but I grew so accustomed to it that I miss that functionality in every other similar game.

We already practice our 'bunny hop' technique to move fast without ascending; why not just make skimming a jumpjet feature?

So you want the option to replace jumpjets with anti-friction field generators and thrusters? Sorta like the Tribes series which is all about using the contours of terrain to build up speed?

Would make the frame bulkier. Though I can live with that. Could always have the thrusters mounted on the back in wings.

 

[Daynen]

So you want the option to replace jumpjets with anti-friction field generators and thrusters? Sorta like the Tribes series which is all about using the contours of terrain to build up speed?

Would make the frame bulkier. Though I can live with that. Could always have the thrusters mounted on the back in wings.

Bulkier frames? You mean, like...dreadnaughts? ~LE GASP!~ Yeah, that would be cool too. Hell, some of the FF frames DID have their jets in the back, so why couldn't we have them function differently according to that? It was the recon frames that had just the one jet in the back, if I recall. Would make sense they have the most forward mobility, since they're RECONNAISSANCE...just saying.

 

[Beemann]

Massman posted this on the FF forums and started my descent into madness. I figured it only proper to repost it here.

I was one of the people who advocated punchier jump jets. The issue I had with FireFall's core movement was that it felt quite slow and.floaty outside of movement bugs (boosting on ramps and our bhop equivalent). I actually went back and checked out Global Agenda to see if the movement worked as well as I had remembered, and it mostly did. What gave GA the edge in that instance was a sense of momentum and player input. In GA you can use the momentum of your fall to carry forward into your next jetpack boost. I think this idea could be fleshed out a little more, and could have been a little faster or could have used in-hands as a baseline, but it was a system with a lot of potential.

FireFall, on the other hand, felt very floaty and predictable. This was exacerbated initially by overly large hitboxes, but still remained an issue throughout development. It was certainly a better setup than you'd get out of your typical console MP FPS, but it was definitely lacking when compared to a lot of what the PC library has to offer

I'd love it if they could expand on their concept in Ember, and made a thread quite explicitly about that when I first hopped on here

 

[DARKB1KE]

When I started playing FF, I thought that's what they meant by air-sprint, t

Hoversprinting, yes.

 

[Krhys]

After seeing crap like WoW, those Star Wars MMOs and playing ones I liked e.g.: DEFIANCE, TERA, instantly being disappointed with ArcheAge...etc. the thing that all of those seemed to lack that Firefall had done right was freedom of movement. Vertical movement, in particular. How many games are there, in MMO, where one can freely jet-pack around, climb cliffs, trees and shoot from there, then reposition just as swiftly? That PlanetSide 2 crap, with the grappling thing, doesn't count. The movement in that game is so sluggish I'm surprised anyone can tolerate it...and that it ever saw the light of day.

What Ember needs to retain, especially if it's going to be a spiritual successor, is the same freedom of movement. And not just for the player, but for NPCs and creatures, both hostile and otherwise. Make use of it in encounters and "missions/quests". Design the environment so that the beings populating the world can explore it and scale it all for tactical advantage, cover, PvE achievements, scavenging and for fun. Or because some creatures live up there. They don't need any other reason to be up in certain places. They don't need to explain themselves to us. Leave 'em be. Or don't.

EDIT: Forgot to add realistic distances.

In Firefall the distances that are shown to you on the HUD are twice what they should be. e.g.: 200 meters in the game looks like it should only be half of that. This would also help with gauging the range of weapons and abilities better and estimate distance when exploring perilous heights...etc.

I agree 100%, even in the dire FF version we have now, the jumpjets function extremely well and movement is really good.

Although I would say that I find a Chosen trooper running backwards up a 20 foot high vertical cliff face while successfully engaging me with accurate shots from his rifle and magically dodging out the way the instant my weapon crosshairs fall in line with his hitbox a little bit on the farcical side.

I hope Ember's monstaz operate with a little more realism.

 

[MattHunX]

I agree 100%, even in the dire FF version we have now, the jumpjets function extremely well and movement is really good.

Although I would say that I find a Chosen trooper running backwards up a 20 foot high vertical cliff face while successfully engaging me with accurate shots from his rifle and magically dodging out the way the instant my weapon crosshairs fall in line with his hitbox a little bit on the farcical side.

I hope Ember's monstaz operate with a little more realism.

The AI is completely retarded. All that strafing while facing me and hitting me a lot more often than they should. Don't want to see that, again. Need smarter AI. A little realism wouldn't hurt either. In both movement and perhaps even weapon-handling and ballistics.

 

[Thorp]

imo jump jets need to feel special AND valuable. FF 1.6 jump jets did not feel special or valuable because jets were required for everything. Ultimately if you weren't floating around you had a higher chance of getting shot by pvp and pve.

Retrospective to Closed Beta of FF; gameplay was unique due to the limitations of jump jets. Jump jets were a strategic maneuver with value. Jump jet fuel was not a totally unlimited resource and people had to spend their jet fuel wisely as it tied into their frame special abilities and maneuverability. Players had to decide if they wanted to risk spending their fuel to scale a building or instead save it to hurdle barriers inside the building. Combat was not only a strategy of placement but of resource management. Because people were more grounded to preserve jet fuel a 'cover system' was available allowing people could duck behind crates. The cover system worked because the opponent could not always gain vertical line-of-sight. By giving people near unlimited jet strength in beyond Closed Beta FF the 'take cover' mechanic was tarnished almost entirely, vertical platform control was eradicated (advantage of controlling a rooftop in OCT pvp), and so was jet resource management.

If Ember is trying to 'clone' FF gameplay it needs to make sure jump jets feel special AND have manageable value. Allowing unlimited jump jets will remove nearly all forms of 'take cover' mechanics and turn combat into a battle of constant floating bodies instead of a ground troops vying for position. Gameplay will be more valuable if the resources available are valuable to the player's strategic use.