One Weapon, Many Mods

[EvilKitten]

Personally in terms of games I'm of the mind of "all things being equal, but not the same." I'll explain that by making up some stuff off the top if my head to get my point across.

Let's take damage, for example, some people like to do a lot of attacks at once while some other people like to do only do one or two attacks. Say there is an enemy with 500hp. A player with a sniper rifle will do 500hp of damage in one shot but takes 3 seconds to rechamber the next round and a person with a SMG can do 500hp of damage over 3seconds (500rpm / 60sec * 3sec = 25 shots at about 8 damage per shot with some rounding). Are effectively the same.

Granted my example could be a lot better without the need to rounding the numbers with the SMG, but you get the point. That way the people who always try to do things based on DPS will learn that every combo of weapon and mods will always equal the same amount of damage. It is just a matter of if you like to do all that damage at once or do all that damage over time.

I agree and disagree with this. The idea of horizontal progression is to balance the vertical increases with equal vertical decreases so that on paper 500 DPS is always 500 DPS, yes. But the key aspect of vertical regression is that is provides something for the player to overcome. Lack of accuracy, lack of fire rate, lack of damage, lack of something provides the opportunity for the player to learn how to compensate. This compensation is where player skill comes in, and it allows them to maximize the actual "DPS" of their weapon to be more than what is found on paper.

 

[MattHunX]

I agree and disagree with this. The idea of horizontal progression is to balance the vertical increases with equal vertical decreases so that on paper 500 DPS is always 500 DPS, yes. But the key aspect of vertical regression is that is provides something for the player to overcome. Lack of accuracy, lack of fire rate, lack of damage, lack of something provides the opportunity for the player to learn how to compensate. This compensation is where player skill comes in, and it allows them to maximize the actual "DPS" of their weapon to be more than what is found on paper.

This is somewhat related to player-side compensation.

Whenever I compare stats or have to choose between some ability, passive or active, or increasing a certain stat at level-up and I see damage reduction or other forms of mitigation, resistance to debuff and stun...etc. I just go "Don't get hit." Simple as that. Or if it is unavoidable and I know I will get hit, at least, a few times no matter what I do it's "Don't get hit, much." I never plan on getting hit (much), so I don't pour points into stuff that relates to that, except stuff that helps me avoid getting hit, like speed, agility, air-control-, jet energy, ranged-weaponry, weapon-effects that stun targets or slow their fire-rate. Some abilities still feel useless for that, even if it is their purpose to impair enemy effectiveness. Like, the Smoke Screen. Many praise it. I don't see how it prevents more elite chosen to fire their delayed explosives near me. I cannot remain in the smoke, even if it reduces their aim and gives me damage reduction, because it can still hit me and I don't want to get hit, so I won't stand around to take all the punishment, if I can avoid it. I'd rather have some other ability slotted in that is of far more use to me.

 

[Naku]

While we may differ on whether to have one or several base weapons it sounds like we pretty much agree on the concept of mods @Naku. I think the only difference there is in my idea you could have multiple barrel mods where yours would have each one be unique.

Yeh pretty much. Reason why i would prefer to have few base models that would be customizable over one base that cna be turned into anythign is Becasue i think thsi would be easier to balance, and ofer more choice

Futhermore there coudl be introduced caps on how much certain stat coudl be modifed. For example lets say that AR has base dmg of 40 and range of modyfication +/- 5. Now lets say i want to make my AR very accurate at long ranges. Some lkighter p\arts would reduce my dmg output, Lets say by 10. But since my dmg cnat go lower than 35 i just get few "free" accuracy points.

This coudl wormk oither way to - for example if i would liek to amximize accuracy of my lmg type weapon, i would have to overshot its cap (since no combination of parst would get me just rigth amount) and recive heavier penatlies for other stats.

 

[EvilKitten]

Yeh pretty much. Reason why i would prefer to have few base models that would be customizable over one base that cna be turned into anythign is Becasue i think thsi would be easier to balance, and ofer more choice

Can you elaborate on this? How exactly would restricting the player to weapon archtypes allow you more choice than being able to customize your weapon however you want?

Futhermore there coudl be introduced caps on how much certain stat coudl be modifed. For example lets say that AR has base dmg of 40 and range of modyfication +/- 5. Now lets say i want to make my AR very accurate at long ranges. Some lkighter p\arts would reduce my dmg output, Lets say by 10. But since my dmg cnat go lower than 35 i just get few "free" accuracy points.

This coudl wormk oither way to - for example if i would liek to amximize accuracy of my lmg type weapon, i would have to overshot its cap (since no combination of parst would get me just rigth amount) and recive heavier penatlies for other stats.

Why would you ever want to put a cap on horizontal progression?

 

[Naku]

1) I think few base models with diffrent base stast woudl be easier to balence becasue each woudl have some, hmmm, lets call it it purpose. For exampel lmg- fire supresionn, high rof and amg size, but heavy, bolt action - high dmg per bullet, very good accuracy, but low rate of fire. Havign smethign liek thsi would, imo, make it easier to amke each archetype viable.

HAvign one gun that coudl becoem anything coudl easly lead to tehre being "one true build" - basicly combinations of mods that everyone uses becasue this "form" is simply most effective in most scenarios.

2) I dont think capping stat modyfication range woudl be cappign horizontal progresion. IMO it would make for more interesting choices. Maybe i didnt put it well on my 1st post so let me try again.

Lets say you want to have accurate weapon with good dmg for long range fights. You pick your bolt-action base and start moddign it. What you want is maxed range, accuracy and dmg.

But due to how each part mods your stats, you max range faster than accuracy (but you are close to cap anyway) and dmg (lets say you are now halfway towards cap). You could choose to pick higher tier parts (that are more expensive) to push your dmg closer to cap, but at the same time you would recive more penatlies to other stats - like making your weapon heavier, reducing reload speed, reduced rate of fire etc. Overall loss in other stats would be far greater than increase in dmg. And you wouldnt be bale to have maxed range dmg, and accuracy anyway.

Second reason i suggested caps is power creeb. Without cap, you coudl potentialy achive such high rating in certain stast (most notable dps) that you will becoem too strong (we saw it a lot in FF), leaving devs no choice to either make harder content, or nerf you. And while making harder, more chalengign content souds like good idea (well, it is) problem is taht it woudl ahev to give rewards taht are better than the one you have. This would lead to more power creep.

And nerfs - well lets be real, no player like to be nerfed.

So by introducing caps, we reduce power creep. Now new content can reward mods that have mnore unique effects instead stronger modyfications.

And last thing - i never ment for thsi caps to be somethign easly achived. If tehre would be, lets say, 10 tiers of mods (higher tier - bigger changes to stas, both positive and negative), to achive stat cap you woudl need at least tier 7 or 8 mods.

 

[NightStroke]

My issue with this is that it doesn't allow for extremely unique weapons with complicated but passive mechanics as well as limitation to a single base model for all different weapons.

How would alt-fires work? Would you need another customization slot to choose the alt-fire? With an assault rifle as a base weapon, it'd be a shame if everything were forced to use a scope on the alt-fire.

How would you create charge-up(bows) or spin-up weapons(heavy weapons)? Could you create burst-fire weapons? What if we got even more specific? Weapons like Firefall's Bastion Turret gun, the firecat's fuel thrower(1.5), ricocheting blade weapons, wave weapons, harpoons/grappling guns? Could those be made while still allowing for equal stat-base variance like rate-of-fire, AoE, and projectile speed?

On top of that, the visual style of the base gun may not suite weapon styles. A weapon that lays accelerant and ignites it doesn't look good as an assault rifle with a magazine with a fuel container and igniter tossed on to it.

I'm not a fan of games where certain elements are better against certain types of health/shields/armor, but I digress.

 

[EvilKitten]

How would alt-fires work? Would you need another customization slot to choose the alt-fire? With an assault rifle as a base weapon, it'd be a shame if everything were forced to use a scope on the alt-fire.

Alternate Weapon Functions

The default alt fire button is a 2x zoom with a 25% reduced omniframe speed and visual blurring around the screen edges to somewhat limit the field of view. However there can be various mods that directly alter the alt fire from this default, including but not limited to adding multi-shot capability, auto or remote targeting capability, separate damage projectiles (grenade launcher etc), additional zoom or even RoF/Arc modes.

How would you create charge-up(bows)

I don't see a Mech being able to handle a regular bow. A harpoon type gun would be possible via a mass mod with projectile speed reductions and a bullet mod that changes the projectile shape.

or spin-up weapons(heavy weapons)?

I made it clear that I was listing only major weapon stats, there is no way I could properly list every weapon stat concept I could come up with in a forum post. Spinup would easily be used on a RoF mod as a drawback, the gun would switch from a single barrel to a rotating six barrel design.

Could you create burst-fire weapons?

Rate of Fire/Capacity

Ammo capacity and RoF weapons are closely tied together and most mods in this category will reflect that. They are usually intended for targeting minions or weak points in large boss type targets. Burst Fire as a form of RoF also falls into this general category. Typical drawbacks due to the shorter barrel required tend to be velocity and accuracy.

What if we got even more specific? Weapons like Firefall's Bastion Turret gun, the firecat's fuel thrower(1.5), ricocheting blade weapons, wave weapons, harpoons/grappling guns? Could those be made while still allowing for equal stat-base variance like rate-of-fire, AoE, and projectile speed?

I do not know how the bastion turret operates so cannot comment on that one. A flame thrower would combine the beam modifier with the flame elemental You might possibly want to also use an AoE mod as well to simulate a real flamethrower effect. I would avoid a "ricocheting blade weapon" as being laughably unrealistic. A "wave" weapon is the beam modifier when combined with the explosive elemental type. And yes any other mod can be placed into an open mod slot to modify these further.

On top of that, the visual style of the base gun may not suite weapon styles. A weapon that lays accelerant and ignites it doesn't look good as an assault rifle with a magazine with a fuel container and igniter tossed on to it.

I said the assault rifle would be the base weapon, not that mods would never have dramatic alterations to the look. In your example of the flame thrower, the final look would look more like a super soaker than an assault rifle. The beam weapon would alter the base design to remove the standard magazine while giving the weapon a more bulbous shape while the fire elemental mod could place several high pressure tanks at the back and a pilot light in the front (I could go on but you get the point)[/QUOTE]

 

[Beemann]

I think the best way to have a balanced weapon system is to intentionally construct weapons. In systems where weapons are a series of constantly tweaked parts and stats, minmaxing will ultimately prevail

It's also a lot easier for a new player to come in and learn whether or not they like the weapon, as there isn't a big dumb grind or an excel spreadsheet's worth of work to be done to figure out what the best combination is to judge whether one should bother with a particular gun or not

 

[NightStroke]

...

I would go quote by quote but I'm on a phone, so sorry for the structure of this response.

In regards to your point about the visuals, the fact that the design is limited to the minimum shape and holding position of the base rifle doesn't allow for immense visual diversity. I don't want my fuel thrower(that weapon sprayed fuel leaving a trail, and the flamethrowing main fire ignited it) to look like a supersoaker; I want to vary in shape and holding position(e.g. how dreads hold heavy machine guns wouldn't work with a normal assault rifle base model). I like the idea of giving weapon "cases" to affect the look, but that doesn't allow for removing sections of the base model.

Back to the topic of unique weapons(lets stick with the fuel thrower as our example for now. Remember that the primary fire is a stream of flames while the alt-fire sprays fuel in a similar stream, and the primary fire can ignite any connected fuel):
When I have to consume mod spots to change the weapon functionally, I get rid of options that allow for statistical variation. Let's say I use the fire elemental mod, a beam modifier for the stream; this leaves me with two spots. The base rifle has three slots available, all of which can be used for statistic variance.
A weapon without unique gunplay features(like a fuel thrower) has a greater capacity for variance in stats. It is easier to minimize recoil and maximize the rate of fire of a weapon without the "fun" features like fuel throwing. To put it simply, I'd rather have a system in which gunplay and stat variance don't interfere with one another. I prefer having an array of weapons, no matter how different their gunplay is, with equal opportunity to adjust the stats for each of them. There is too much potential for cool sci-fi weapons that forcing gunplay into the mod system would hinder customization in stats.

A system which has various default weapons(that cover a spectrum of weapons) could work with what your suggesting. E.g. One is a machine gun(can be modified to be a hmg, lmg, smg, etc), one is a burst rifle(can become a sniper rifle, charge-up weapon, shotgun, etc), another is a stream weapon with a heat function(can become a flamethrower, acid spewer, laser, etc.), and one is an RPG/Missile Launched(can become a grenade launcher, plasma cannon, railgun, etc), and so on. It still cannot cover the really miscellaneous weapons but I prefer a spectrum of base weapons over a single base weapon.

Limiting the alt-fire to a single mod limits the customization too much. With a fuel thrower, what if I wanted my Alt to instantly lay down a wide AoE fuel patch rather than creating a trail wherever I spray? Would weapon base stats and mods impact the Alt-fire, and could it ever truly be balanced?

Also, when I say bow I just mean a weapon with charge-up and a non-hitscan projectile, not something the omnimek draws and aims. And don't tell me you don't like the idea of a weapon that fires ricocheting projectiles(think of the electron's boomerang shot in a gun).

 

[EvilKitten]

I think the best way to have a balanced weapon system is to intentionally construct weapons. In systems where weapons are a series of constantly tweaked parts and stats, minmaxing will ultimately prevail

It's also a lot easier for a new player to come in and learn whether or not they like the weapon, as there isn't a big dumb grind or an excel spreadsheet's worth of work to be done to figure out what the best combination is to judge whether one should bother with a particular gun or not

My suggestion requires neither a big dumb grind, an excel spreadsheet worth of work to be done (Because there IS no best combination, that's the bloody point), nor do you need to constantly tweak parts. The whole point is to mix and match some mods together to get the weapon you want, then go play. Once you figure out what weapon combination you want your focus should at most be in trying out new builds to find something you like better. But that is only when you feel like it. There is no XP involved, choosing a higher tier mod doesn't give you a numerically better weapon and the focus is where it should be, on the wargame, not the stat game.

@NightStroke I think the idea is that you can't have *everything*. You have to pick and choose what functionality you want. And yes some of the crazier weapon ideas (like a flame thrower) are going to come with some reduced functionality. If there are no consequences, there is no real choice (player agency) involved. Every mod has a drawback, sometimes that drawback is that you have fewer mod slots availible to customize.

 

[NightStroke]

@NightStroke I think the idea is that you can't have *everything*. You have to pick and choose what functionality you want. And yes some of the crazier weapon ideas (like a flame thrower) are going to come with some reduced functionality. If there are no consequences, there is no real choice (player agency) involved. Every mod has a drawback, sometimes that drawback is that you have fewer mod slots availible to customize.

It's hard to draw the distinction between gunplay and stats. I believe that every weapon, no matter what the gunplay is like, has the same opportunity for statistical variation as any other gun. If I start with a smg, no level of modification will turn it into the fuel thrower gunplay wise, even if the stats are similar. At the same time, if I start with a smg, usage of mods could turn it into an lmg(gunplay is pretty similar, stats are vastly different). Separating gunplay and stats allows for customization without direct limitation.

 

[Beemann]

My suggestion requires neither a big dumb grind, an excel spreadsheet worth of work to be done (Because there IS no best combination, that's the bloody point), nor do you need to constantly tweak parts. The whole point is to mix and match some mods together to get the weapon you want, then go play. Once you figure out what weapon combination you want your focus should at most be in trying out new builds to find something you like better. But that is only when you feel like it. There is no XP involved, choosing a higher tier mod doesn't give you a numerically better weapon and the focus is where it should be, on the wargame, not the stat game.

Saying there's no best option does not make it so, sadly. In any system where you're able to fine tune the stats of your weapon there will be superior and inferior choices. The more options you have, the harder it will be to bring those options in line.

Additionally, people who pick the "wrong" choice for their playstyle or omniframe setup will have to still attempt to grind for other options, and they'll have to repeat this process until they get the sort of weapon they want. How many options will they be given? How many players will be incredibly intimidated by this choice?
Further, it's clear that there will be some sort of grind as far as getting more extreme mods goes, whether it's a short bit of resource gathering or a long haul thing is up to the dev team (in the hypothetical situation where this is the chosen route) but either way you're ultimately creating more busywork in which someone has to use a weapon they don't like to get a weapon they might

I would also suggest that if you don't want the focus to be on numerical efficiency and the "stat game" then creating a system by which stats are to be heavily tweaked, and combinations of stat tweaks are to be experimented with is the complete opposite of what you want

 

[Luisedgm]

This idea is nothing new, and im sure something very similar is already planned for this game.

 

[Naku]

Follow up on my idea of modular weapon:

I really woudl like system when we woudl basicly carft our own gun from few pre-set parts. at teh begginign of game we woudl get some pre-made weapons taht woudl roughly fit few well-known weapon types (AR, SMG, sniper rifle, etc)

Now after doign reaserch/buying blueprints from vendor/ anyotehrwaydevswouldseefit we would be able to craft diffrent weapons.

We would satrt with "base", or "body" of weapon that would determine roughly determine what our wepaon will be(balistic, energy, or rocket/granade launcher), and what additional parts we can or can not add.
For example If we pick balistic-type base we could then make any weapon type that uses conventional bullets - from smg to sniper rifles.

Then, depending on base we picked we would have to add few more parts to make gun work - for exampel for balistic weaposn we would have to add barrel, trigger mechanizm, and magazine. Then stock, scope(or any targeting system) and muzzle woudl be optional.

Most basic rocket launcher would need only trigger, and energy weapons trigger and barrel.

 

[EvilKitten]

I have updated the section of this topic related to damage types in order to reflect my latest post.

 

[Ixozuxiz93]

(maximum character count reached)

Specialized Ammo Slot Mods
There is a single fourth slot designed solely to fit an alternate ammo mod. All specialized ammo comes at the expense of some raw bullet damage due to reducing the bullet mass to make room for a payload delivery chamber. These mods simply change how the projectile interacts with the target and do not directly alter any of the base weapon stats. The Beam mod will alter the specialized ammo to create additional unique weapon effects. While each Specialized Ammo Mod itself is unique and Boolean, the mods themselves form a tiered group from 2 to 5 (aka none will ever show up in base kits)

Explosive (Tier 1) - The basis for rocket type weapons when combined with AoE. Explosive bullets are intended to counter high armor targets and are particularly devastating when the beam mod is used. The combo turns the projectile type into a sonic pulse that liquefies bio-mater when encased in a hard shell (armor). While explosive projectiles don't really rely on the projectiles mass or velocity, for game simplification the damage will still be set by those two stats.

*standard* 20% Armor Bypass/-10% Damage
*beam* 35% Armor Bypass (-25% effective damage)

Fire (Tier 2) - Adds phosphorus to bullet rounds which adds an additional DoT that is extremely effective against biological targets without protection Beam mod changes the bullet into a flamethrower type weapon which has a stronger weakness to armor and greater bonus to bio-matter. This mod is very useful when combined with AoE.

*standard* -10% damage/1% bonus HP damage per second for 4 seconds, stacks up to 15 times.
*beam* extra 2% HP damage per second for 10 seconds, stacks up to 20 times instead of 15.

Shock (Tier 3) - Shock rounds provide a small interrupt effect on any ability warm up, the longer the warm-up the more effective shock rounds are. Adding the Beam modifier turns the weapon into an Electrolaser which has a slow effect that counters enemies that are extremely fast or agile. Additionally both ammo types do extra damage against shields.

*standard* +1% Shock chance/-10% damage/+35% (+25% effective) vs Shields
*beam* -25% speed instead of shock/+50% (+25% effective) vs. Shields.

Nano (Tier 3) - Not normally found in human weapons, Nanites are either picked up from Tsihu weapons or used in some abilities. Nanites are designed to eat through armor but are easily blocked by shields.

*standard* +20% vs Armor/-10% Damage
*beam* 45% vs Armor (-25% effective Damage)

Plasma (Tier 4) - Plasma is the ultimate against practically everything as it ignores armor while still having a high base damage. The drawbacks to this ammo type are equally severe, including a very slow moving projectile and a 2x ammo requirement per shot. The Beam modifier removes the slow projectile effect but it has an extremely high damage falloff, and still uses 2x the power requirements to function. Both modes require very short range to be effective.

*standard* +15% damage/2x ammo consumption and -75?% projectile speed
*beam* +30% (effective +15%) damage/2x energy consumption and 5% damage falloff per meter after 5? meters.

EDIT: Updated for my new post, added Nano damage type.

I like one-weapon system. My own idea: https://forums.em8er.com/threads/behold-the-multiweapon-weapon-design-types-idea.1477/#post-45932
has that aspect, but it'll look like different weapons.

Having one weapon which essentially looks the same for every player is, however, boring to look at after a while.

I think we could combine ideas.

 

[Pandagnome]

How many players will be incredibly intimidated by this choice?

I think a small explanation of what each part does to change could make it more understandable

Skin - change look of weapon from a variety of looks e.g. Micro kaiju gun
Weapon type - e.g. small pistol
Mod 1 - main function of weapon e.g squirts acid
Mod 2 - alt fire function of weapon e.g. Fires big aoe acid blob
Add on - specific for weapon e.g. suppressor, trajectory advisor, laser sight etc

Stats - The stats of the main weapon equipped
stats change - The stats of the weapon you will change to compare against the equipped weapon you have.

Animation - includes reloads, and holding weapon, stance e.g. holding a micro kaiju gun like a rocket launcher would look weird

I like this lets say certain weapon are suitable for certain animation, and this includes the rest hmm