One Weapon, Many Mods

Penny for your thoughts?

  • This is the awesomest idea since sliced bread!

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • Many mods are needed to make this idea viable

    Votes: 13 48.1%
  • OMG GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

    Votes: 9 33.3%
  • Bacon is a foodgroup

    Votes: 3 11.1%

  • Total voters
    27

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
719
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#1
So I realize that anyone who has read my comments probably has a pretty good idea of what I would like to see for a weapon system in Ember, but my thoughts are spread out among several threads and mostly buried in other peoples idea's so I wanted to lump everything together in my own topic...

Base Weapon and Mods
The base weapon is a standard issue automatic (or perhaps semi-auto?) Assault Rifle with all around moderate stats. This omni-weapon will have 3 mod slots with no restriction on what can be placed in them (Though each mod should be unique). Rather than having distinct weapon types, these mods will determine all of the weapon characteristics allowing for a wide variety of play styles and features. Every base weapon mod (except the beam mod) will have a positive boost to one or two weapon stats while conversely having an equivalent negative effect to one or more of the other stats to maintain the horizontal nature of the game. Note that while no weapon mod will ever boost omniframe stats, some may have negative effects on speed and/or maneuverability due to increased mass or energy requirements.

Each non-Boolean mod will have between 3 to 5 tiers with higher tiers simply being a larger horizontal shift away from the base AR stats without imparting an inherent vertical growth component. At the launch of a new character the player may choose from a list of "Kits" that consist of a group of tier 1 mods which when put together create the effect of weapon archetypes (rocket launcher, SMG, shotgun etc). The other kits not selected can still be purchased from vendors. Players can choose whether to use the kits as is or switch the mods out for other types to customize their weapon as they see fit.


Major Weapon Stats:
Projectile Area of Effect
AoE mods are designed to explode on impact and are intended to spread damage in a sphere rather than on a particular location. As such their drawbacks are typically going to be related to raw damage (RoF/Mass etc). The non specialized AoE damage is shrapnel from the bullet casing. NOTE: The damage from a standard AoE round is shrapnel, not explosive.

Rate of Fire/Capacity
Ammo capacity and RoF weapons are closely tied together and most mods in this category will reflect that. They are usually intended for targeting minions or weak points in large boss type targets. Burst Fire as a form of RoF also falls into this general category. Typical drawbacks due to the shorter barrel required tend to be velocity and accuracy.

Projectile Mass
High mass projectiles will drastically increase the raw damage of each round fired, however their drawbacks are mostly in the RoF/Capacity area. High mass projectiles that are not AoE are a poor choice to combat large quantities of low health minions.

Projectile Firing Arc/Accuracy Drop-off
Firing arc is the overall angle departure parallel to the weapon barrel that projectiles will typically travel within. Accuracy drop-off is when the firing arc increases over time due to rapid continuing fire. Typically in games this is represented by having a reticle with a circle which gets larger as you hold down the fire button. Because these stats are closely related to barrel length they will often be opposite the RoF stat in mods.

Projectile Velocity
Velocity is one of the two key elements that determine raw damage from a projectile weapon as well as being the key factor in determining the useful range of a weapon due to bullet drop. Because high velocity requires a longer barrel or a greater energy charge, it will typically come at a drawback to RoF/Capacity or Omniframe Speed/Maneuverability (due to increased mass).

Damage Modifiers
While the base damage of any projectile would be calculated based on projectile mass and projectile velocity, various mods may have direct damage modifiers as well that have nothing to do with either stat and are used for game balancing issues. IE Beam Mod imparts a -25% damage mod.

Durability
The durability stat has no impact on damage or play style but instead determines how long your weapon lasts before it requires repairs. A mod that increases durability will typically be directly proportional to the cost per "durability point" to repair.

Multi-shot (Cone of Effect)
The multi-shot effect will fire multiple projectiles in a single shot, allowing for the potential of drastically increased weapon damage. The effect will be somewhat similiar in nature to increasing the mass of a single bullet but with the potential for part of the projectiles to miss. The larger the multi-shot the smaller the base damage per round in order to compensate for potentially massive vertical DPS climb. The other drawbacks will typically be an extremely low rate of fire as the weapon has to load multiple rounds per shot, as well as a much higher firing arc and or accuracy drop-off. Different multi-shot mods may have additional variations. Multi-shot is exclusive to and overrides burst fire.

Reload
Reload speed is a versatile stat which can be used as both a bonus or a negative in just about any mod where it makes logical sense. Reload alterations may be found in particular in mods that alter the ammo clip size without also altering the mass it takes up. Lighter clips will be easier to maneuver into place conversely with heavier clips being more cumbersome. Other mods may impart a shotgun effect where reload is per round or groups of rounds rather than as a clip.

Alternate Weapon Functions
The default alt fire button is a 2x zoom with a 25% reduced omniframe speed and visual blurring around the screen edges to somewhat limit the field of view. However there can be various mods that directly alter the alt fire from this default, including but not limited to adding multi-shot capability, auto or remote targeting capability, separate damage projectiles (grenade launcher etc), additional zoom or even RoF/Arc modes.

*Beam Weapon*
This is a special Boolean (on/off) mod that converts standard bullets into a more exotic form which negates the gravity effect on projectile weapons, the actual effect on the weapon is determined by the presence of any specialized weapon mods. With no specialized ammo mod the weapon defaults to a pulse laser weapon. This damage type partially bypasses shields on targets but will always have a negative damage mod which will make it less effective against unshielded targets. The base damage assigned to a weapon with the beam mod should be about 85% of the default Mass/Velocity calculation to account for weapon blooming/bleed-off. Beam weapons also utilize a power charge that is based on your ammo capacity modifiers and replenished by your armors excess energy production. The Beam modifier ignores the AoE stat.
 
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EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
719
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#2
(maximum character count reached)

Specialized Ammo Slot Mods

There is a single fourth slot designed solely to fit an alternate ammo mod. All specialized ammo comes at the expense of some raw bullet damage due to reducing the bullet mass to make room for a payload delivery chamber. These mods simply change how the projectile interacts with the target and do not directly alter any of the base weapon stats. The Beam mod will alter the specialized ammo to create additional unique weapon effects. While each Specialized Ammo Mod itself is unique and Boolean, the mods themselves form a tiered group from 2 to 5 (aka none will ever show up in base kits)

Explosive (Tier 1) - The basis for rocket type weapons when combined with AoE. Explosive bullets are intended to counter high armor targets and are particularly devastating when the beam mod is used. The combo turns the projectile type into a sonic pulse that liquefies bio-mater when encased in a hard shell (armor). While explosive projectiles don't really rely on the projectiles mass or velocity, for game simplification the damage will still be set by those two stats.

*standard* 20% Armor Bypass/-10% Damage
*beam* 35% Armor Bypass (-25% effective damage)


Fire (Tier 2) - Adds phosphorus to bullet rounds which adds an additional DoT that is extremely effective against biological targets without protection Beam mod changes the bullet into a flamethrower type weapon which has a stronger weakness to armor and greater bonus to bio-matter. This mod is very useful when combined with AoE.

*standard* -10% damage/1% bonus HP damage per second for 4 seconds, stacks up to 15 times.
*beam* extra 2% HP damage per second for 10 seconds, stacks up to 20 times instead of 15.


Shock (Tier 3) - Shock rounds provide a small interrupt effect on any ability warm up, the longer the warm-up the more effective shock rounds are. Adding the Beam modifier turns the weapon into an Electrolaser which has a slow effect that counters enemies that are extremely fast or agile. Additionally both ammo types do extra damage against shields.

*standard* +1% Shock chance/-10% damage/+35% (+25% effective) vs Shields
*beam* -25% speed instead of shock/+50% (+25% effective) vs. Shields.


Nano (Tier 3) - Not normally found in human weapons, Nanites are either picked up from Tsihu weapons or used in some abilities. Nanites are designed to eat through armor but are easily blocked by shields.

*standard* +20% vs Armor/-10% Damage
*beam* 45% vs Armor (-25% effective Damage)


Plasma (Tier 4) - Plasma is the ultimate against practically everything as it ignores armor while still having a high base damage. The drawbacks to this ammo type are equally severe, including a very slow moving projectile and a 2x ammo requirement per shot. The Beam modifier removes the slow projectile effect but it has an extremely high damage falloff, and still uses 2x the power requirements to function. Both modes require very short range to be effective.

*standard* +15% damage/2x ammo consumption and -75?% projectile speed
*beam* +30% (effective +15%) damage/2x energy consumption and 5% damage falloff per meter after 5? meters.

EDIT: Updated for my new post, added Nano damage type.
 
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Vladplaya

Commander
Em-8er Contributor
Jul 27, 2016
169
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USA
#4
I like visual diversity in weapons, even for the sake of the low budget I would not recommend going with just one weapon. The game will get boring and feel repetitive faster when you just have one weapon, and all you do is changing numbers on it.
We already going to have one frame, probably for a while, so having one frame and weapon would feel like an over kill to me heh
 

Wyntyr

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
2,750
5,971
113
Florida
#5
I like visual diversity in weapons, even for the sake of the low budget I would not recommend going with just one weapon. The game will get boring and feel repetitive faster when you just have one weapon, and all you do is changing numbers on it.
We already going to have one frame, probably for a while, so having one frame and weapon would feel like an over kill to me heh
That's a good, and valid, point. Being able to change the weapon cosmetically should be an option regardless of number changes.
 

Vladplaya

Commander
Em-8er Contributor
Jul 27, 2016
169
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#6
That's a good, and valid, point. Being able to change the weapon cosmetically should be an option regardless of number changes.
I don't mind people changing visual look of their weapon, but I feel like it should be limited to what the weapon set up actually does.
For example I don't want weapon with sniper rifle stats to look like SMG, or vise versa.
That is why I think it's a good idea to just start with at least basic but standard FPS arsenal: AR, SMG, LMG, SNIPER, SHOTGUN. And then diversify and add skins from there. All of those don't even have to be in the game right away, we can just start with AR, SMG and LMG, since they are very similar, but that way you can still glance at someone's weapon and kinda see what type of gameplay they are going for.
 
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Jul 26, 2016
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#7
I don't mind people changing visual look of their weapon, but I feel like it should be limited to what the weapon set up actually does.
For example I don't want weapon with sniper rifle stats to look like SMG, or vise versa.
That is why I think it's a good idea to just start with at least basic but standard FPS arsenal: AR, SMG, LMG, SNIPER, SHOTGUN. And then diversify and add skins from there. All of those don't even have to be all in the game right away, we can just start with AR, SMG and LMG, since they are very similar, but that way you can still glance at someone's weapon and kinda see what type of gameplay they are going for.
Should simply be that modifications to the single weapon would then alter its appearance to something suitable.

Be awkward if you would mod it to be a rocket launcher and it still looked like a plain assault rifle. :p
I imagine it would be like swapping Engineer weapons in Firefall; The Assault Rifle and the Launcher had a different look but when attached to the frame were very similar given how the weapons were rotated and a part of the frame itself.
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
719
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#8
Both @Vladplaya and @Squid Boss are absolutely right. I didn't really address cosmetics because I was looking more at the functionality or how mods would work. The concept supports a progressive system of upgrades by allowing Mark to fund a single alpha weapon and then add in the features as his group has time/money.

Eventually I think the general idea would be that the mods would alter the basic look by adding extra visual parts/overlays onto the base design to give it a more unique appearance. Probably it would be divided into archetypes, IE mods that add projectile mass would see the barrel enlarged and perhaps change the look of the receiver while the special fire ammo mod would add a bunch of small canisters to the side and change the stock to be more streamlined and so on. However initially we don't really need any of that in order to get the alpha product produced as we would if we were designing separate archetype weapon platforms so the mod idea is more friendly to staged content.
 
#9
How about we keep to the idea of an Onmi-weapon that can be and has to be extensively modded to eventually fulfill a role, but there could be presets, at the start, that we can hold onto, that would be slightly pre-modified omni-weapons, so people could start off with a basic version of the build they would eventually want to gear towards or deviate from that path to build a weapon that is in between those presets, several even, depending on what stats they'd sacrifice and what they'd keep.

So, we'd have an starter build that would be an omni-weapon with basic modding to essentially function as an assault rifle.
Another choice could be a recon starter build, where the omni-weapon would come with the basic mods that would provide much lower rate of fire and higher damage and range...etc.
There could also be a choice for a blank starter build that would have no mods, a generic weapons that wouldn't be modded towards any specific role.

This would all be to help people start off.


And yes, as I have also said in the other thread and as @Vladplaya pointed out, visual representation of the different mods on the weapon would eventually be necessary, changing the appearance of it to properly reflect the role it is for. Same thing with the gear one will be able to slot into their mech to change its appearance to anything between sleek or hulking.
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
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#10
At the launch of a new character the player may choose from a list of "Kits" that consist of a group of tier 1 mods which when put together create the effect of weapon archetypes (rocket launcher, SMG, shotgun etc). The other kits not selected can still be purchased from vendors. Players can choose whether to use the kits as is or switch the mods out for other types to customize their weapon as they see fit.

I did mention this in the OP, also while I only posted about weapon mods in this topic the kit would also contain base omniframe mods AND abilities as well to round out each archtype.
 
#11
I did mention this in the OP, also while I only posted about weapon mods in this topic the kit would also contain base omniframe mods AND abilities as well to round out each archtype.
Sorry, I forgot what I read, by the time I made it through the stats and tiers. :) Your fault for writing such elaborate posts. :p
 
Likes: EvilKitten

Omnires

Forerunner
Aug 14, 2016
503
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#12
I like the idea, and as long as we stay with the sliding scale of balance all good games have. We can also make mods like this for melee weapons too. As doing things like changing the size, shape, mass, and balance point (the place where the weight is equally distributed when resting on a single spot) of weapon changes how those weapons work and function.

For example
Move most of the mass and balance point of a weapon to away from them wielder and it becomes a momentum focused weapon. Momentum focused weapons work best when they are circular and arcing movements to best take advantage of mass focused on the end of weapon to impart more force on contact. The upside to them is their high damage at the cost of speed and some precision. Key examples of this type of weapons are clubs, hammers, scythes, and sword designed for slashing rather than thrusting.

Also this is off topice but related to how different weapons. Mind you not everything in the videos are right, but the basic idea gets across. Plus there funny.
 

Naku

Emberite - Deepscanner
Jul 26, 2016
28
31
13
#14
my 2 cernts - I dont think one weapon is good idea - but multiple mods for weapon that change it stats is definitly good one.

I personaly would liek to have few base weapon "archetypes": AR, Semi-aut rife, bolt-action, LMG, Rocket/granade launcher.

Then every archetype could be moded to boost/change stast on it.

Similar to your idea most mods would boost some stast while reducing others, with higher tier would have stronger modification (both positive and negatove). But i would add few that have only positive boost - but theyw oudl be lower and limited to amyeb only one stat.

But insted of having 3 mod slots for it it would be done by changing parts : for example barrel, muzzle, stock, magazine, and scope (or targeting system).

So for example gettign heavier stock would boost accuracy, but increase weight of weapon, therefore reducing run speed.

Getting longer barrel would boost range but lower RoF.

Magazine woudl modify not only amount of ammo you have - you could get special rounds (like fire, explosive, AP, etc.)

Not every Weapon type could benefit from every modyfiation - for exampel Rocket launcher cant have stock, LMG woudl ahve limited options for scope, etc.

Then there would be experimental parts that have signifant impact on how weapon works - for example multi-barrel mod for lmg that chages it into minigun (great rof boost, but much heavier, cant equip stock, cant use normal scopes, etc)

Now for mods - they would change/add functions to weapon instead changign stast on it. For example stuff like beam mod that would change wepaon from firing normal rounds to firing laser beam, shield generator, Lock-on system, stuff like that.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#15
Probably don't even have to look at any sort of damage increase based on modifications.

There already will be a slight increase in power as has been said by Mark. It isn't truly horizontal but we don't want to add much more.

Modifications that change the behavior of the weapon or its particular effectiveness to perform a specific task are wonderful. It can accent the modifications done to the frame to allow the player to best suit the frame and weapon to perform the task they desire. Changing stats is only going to further push the potential power gains and more vertical growth in a character.

As soon as power or things relative to power can be modified to be better you're going to create a situation where that will become the standard.

Ideally I'd think you'd want variation and choice vs statistical modification so there's less opportunity for vertical growth to seep in more and more.
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
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#16
While we may differ on whether to have one or several base weapons it sounds like we pretty much agree on the concept of mods @Naku. I think the only difference there is in my idea you could have multiple barrel mods where yours would have each one be unique.

@Squid Boss That is the beauty of using positive and negative boosts for mods, specialized equipment can remain statistically flat, but player skill can compensate for the added negatives so that the vertical progression comes from the players themselves. This will keep skill as the main priority while allowing for progression.
 
Likes: MattHunX
Jul 26, 2016
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#17
While we may differ on whether to have one or several base weapons it sounds like we pretty much agree on the concept of mods @Naku. I think the only difference there is in my idea you could have multiple barrel mods where yours would have each one be unique.

@Squid Boss That is the beauty of using positive and negative boosts for mods, specialized equipment can remain statistically flat, but player skill can compensate for the added negatives so that the vertical progression comes from the players themselves. This will keep skill as the main priority while allowing for progression.
I am somewhat skeptical that when the number crunchers and game mechanic crunchers get into their groove we are going to find that particular setups don't become the meta. If anything ever inches out to be advantageous it'll be chosen no matter what. We'd likely have to maintain an incredibly low % change in overall output. At that point does it really seem necessary to do all that work? May not make so much sense in Ember at the starting line.

I know what you're getting at though. :)
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
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#18
I am somewhat skeptical that when the number crunchers and game mechanic crunchers get into their groove we are going to find that particular setups don't become the meta. If anything ever inches out to be advantageous it'll be chosen no matter what. We'd likely have to maintain an incredibly low % change in overall output. At that point does it really seem necessary to do all that work? May not make so much sense in Ember at the starting line.

I know what you're getting at though. :)
I think the key here is that as we get access to more specialization we will also run into a variety of encounters that don't just cater to one style. Meta's tend to appear because the numbers come out so that one weapon/style/ability is simply better in the majority of situations that you run into so everyone takes it. If you are always encountering situations where what works best is different then the push is going to be for variety in any team setup.

The big issue comes down to solo play. Because so many "MMO" games have been catering more and more to solo play they pretty much HAVE to create weapons that can handle any situation, otherwise a single player wouldn't be viable. In order to truly end up with a large variety of VIABLE options you really have to make a clear and distinct separation between what you can solo and what requires a group. In my opinion the AR weapon being the base should be the ultimate *solo* weapon, because while it won't be the best at anything, it will be able to do OK at the largest variety of situations.

I think in the end our map is going to need to look a bit like a target. In the center is the safe home base, immediately around that would be encounters that are starter and solo friendly. Outside of that is going to be the area where specialization and groups will be critical. As players push back the "melding" equivalent, the target concept will simply get larger.
 
Likes: Pandagnome

Omnires

Forerunner
Aug 14, 2016
503
763
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#19
Personally in terms of games I'm of the mind of "all things being equal, but not the same." I'll explain that by making up some stuff off the top if my head to get my point across.

Let's take damage, for example, some people like to do a lot of attacks at once while some other people like to do only do one or two attacks. Say there is an enemy with 500hp. A player with a sniper rifle will do 500hp of damage in one shot but takes 3 seconds to rechamber the next round and a person with a SMG can do 500hp of damage over 3seconds (500rpm / 60sec * 3sec = 25 shots at about 8 damage per shot with some rounding). Are effectively the same.

Granted my example could be a lot better without the need to rounding the numbers with the SMG, but you get the point. That way the people who always try to do things based on DPS will learn that every combo of weapon and mods will always equal the same amount of damage. It is just a matter of if you like to do all that damage at once or do all that damage over time.
 
Likes: Pandagnome
Jul 26, 2016
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Canada
#20
Basically No Man Sky's multi-tool.
Sounds cool, I'd be willing to see that in the game.
The game that isn't boring after the first hour of playing.