Why I don't like mech omniframe concept

[Omnires]

I would also like to point something out. You can't speak for people if you never asked them for their opinion. I was a fan of FireFall and played it for years (I even joined the mentor program). But I'm also a big mecha fan I love things like the Armored Core game series, the Gundam series, and many more. I just love sci-fi. So you can't say something like "FireFall fans don't like mecha" but that statement is false. Plus the battleframes in FireFall also count as mecha because they are a type of exoskeleton. And exoskeleton can come in many different sharps and sizes as long as they act like an extension of your body.

It is ok not to like something and it is ok to say that you don't like something. But your first line of thinking should be looking for ways to compromise rather than flat rejecting it. For example, I hate that a lot of weapons in sci-fi games have recoil when there is no reason or need for them to have recoil, but I do also point out things that can be used in place of recoil that would make sense for how different weapons are designed and work. Your goal should be finding solutions you can work with, without changing the feel and the goal of the game itself.

 

[Vladplaya]

@Omnires Are you high? Exo-skeleton is not a mecha. You don't wear mecha, you sit inside it.

Anyways I am also not a big fan of the mecha suits that character well be wearing in Ember either. Even if they will be fluid and feel like a character, it still different mental perspective for the game.
The strangest thing for me was how Mark made decision to go with mechas without letting anyone know till people were already spending money on the forum.
This suppose to be spiritual successor to the FireFall, and FireFall wasn't about mechas. But okay I get it, this is not FireFall, this is different game. Still, if you gonna make a game based all on donations of people who like FireFall, wouldn't you think it's a good idea to let people know that you making pretty major decision going with certain design that is pretty different from FireFall? Or even better, make a poll and ask if people want exo suits type of frames or mecha? I guarantee you that most people would take normal frames we liked and were used to, over mecha frames.
And after they made a mecha they had to butcher the design by keeping the front open. Why? So we don't look like tin cans? Then why make us mecha in the first place? Heck, we will be looking at the back of our characters anyways. Also FireFall frames didn't look like tin cans and were pretty unique, was it so difficult to come up with similar design?
I don't know, I am just afraid the game will feel too different when your character is a bulky robot, and on top of that I feel like there is not enough transparency when it comes to the development process.

 

[Omnires]

@Vladplaya I am not high, the term Mecha may refer to both scientific ideas and science fiction genres that centers on robots or machines controlled by people. In the beginning, the term "mecha" was just an abbreviation of the word "mechanical" first coined used in Japanese that included all types of mechanics (cars, airplanes, and the like) not just robots. Over time people in western cultures through word association started to link mecha with all things robotic. Later the idea of mecha would be broken into many different sub-groups, with western cultures mostly viewing the word "mecha" as being mostly the same as "automaton". Of the many types of mecha most westerners think of the ones that people are able to pilot from the inside, like a second skin or a vehicle, although there many that can be piloted remotely this is not what comes to mind when most westerners hear the term.

Of the different types of piloted mecha exoskeletons (also known as powered armor, exoframe, exosuit, and a few other things) is a wearable mobile machine that is powered by a system of motors, pneumatics, levers, hydraulics, or a combination of technologies that allow for limb movement, increased strength, and endurance. The key difference and feature of exoskeletons that sets them apart from other types of mecha, is that they act as an extension your body and your physical movements are the controls. Most of the time exoskeletons just mirror the physical movements of the pilot inside of them, often limiting the design of them to being same basic from as the pilot. But extra abilities can be added and controlled with other systems like voice commands, a version of facial recognition (example, ranged weapons mounted on different parts on the mecha's body may track the eye movements and eye shape of the plot to aim and fire), mapping different actions to poses, or some other such system apart from the main one. The smallest exoskeletons can be is the size of the person who wears it, but there is no limit on how large exoskeletons can be outside of the physics of the materials they are made out of and the place there being used in (namely are they in space or a gravity well. On top of other factors).

 

[Blackfyre]

All this back and forth over a handful of photos is ridiculous. Being worried that a mech won't feel the way you want it to is ridiculous without having seen any form of gameplay at all. Even Mark has no clue how the mechs will feel in the final product, so arguing over it now is pointless. As to everyone arguing that the game should be exactly how they want it? That's a huge part of why Firefall failed. The devs make the game they want to make, if they're constantly revamping things just because this month's dominant voice is showing displeasure, we're going to end up in the same situation that cause Firefall to die - constantly changing basics with no real progress on the game being made, and that's not even mentioning how shitty the game became due to the attempts at mixing concepts that don't go together at all (in order to please every single one of you of course).

 

[Pandagnome]

I thought this was ember not firefall :S

Btw a mech is like a spandex but made of metal it is hugging you ..dont be mad about it
just be happy frieds

 

[Grummz]

@Omnires
This suppose to be spiritual successor to the FireFall, and FireFall wasn't about mechas. But okay I get it, this is not FireFall, this is different game. Still, if you gonna make a game based all on donations of people who like FireFall, wouldn't you think it's a good idea to let people know that you making pretty major decision going with certain design that is pretty different from FireFall? Or even better, make a poll and ask if people want exo suits type of frames or mecha? I guarantee you that most people would take normal frames we liked and were used to, over mecha frames.

I want to make one thing clear. The second milestone is a resounding success, and the Omniframe concept was front and center in the video and on the fundraising page. It has more backers and raised nearly 20k. So the implication that I am misleading people is simply false here.

Also, I'm asking the community to back my vision of the game, not participate in a design hodge-podge free for all. I take feedback and input, but we don't vote on everything . The way you CAN steer is with the next milestone. And the success of Milestone 2, which is far, far, far greater than Milestone 1, tells me the frame design not going to be a detriment to the game.

That said, I've been reading all the input on the frames and have some ideas. But please stop spreading this false and misleading idea that I've somehow mislead people with the Omniframe. That's complete and utter horseshit.

 

[Astro]

Also FireFall frames didn't look like tin cans and were pretty unique, was it so difficult to come up with similar design?

I don't know, I am just afraid the game will feel too different when your character is a bulky robot, and on top of that I feel like there is not enough transparency when it comes to the development process.

1. They "WERE" unique. There are a plethora of games now that have the "battleframe" like designs of Firefall. (e.g. Warframe)

2. How much more transparency could you ask for!? Mark is already creating a "Vision Book" and has laid the plans out for every step of development required to get us to a simple playable mock up.

We are NOT in control of the design of this game, and we never will be. Nor should we.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

We are NOT in control of the design of this game, and we never will be. Nor should we.

We are just the pusher. PUSHING MARK TO MAKE THIS GOD DAMN GAME.

YES. I. WANT. THIS. GAME. (not ASAP lol)
By mark's vision

(someone add my big orange explosion, phone don't like editing tool)

 

[Vladplaya]

@Vladplaya I am not high, the term Mecha may refer to both scientific ideas and science fiction genres that centers on robots or machines controlled by people. In the beginning, the term "mecha" was just an abbreviation of the word "mechanical" first coined used in Japanese that included all types of mechanics (cars, airplanes, and the like) not just robots. Over time people in western cultures through word association started to link mecha with all things robotic. Later the idea of mecha would be broken into many different sub-groups, with western cultures mostly viewing the word "mecha" as being mostly the same as "automaton". Of the many types of mecha most westerners think of the ones that people are able to pilot from the inside, like a second skin or a vehicle, although there many that can be piloted remotely this is not what comes to mind when most westerners hear the term.

Of the different types of piloted mecha exoskeletons (also known as powered armor, exoframe, exosuit, and a few other things) is a wearable mobile machine that is powered by a system of motors, pneumatics, levers, hydraulics, or a combination of technologies that allow for limb movement, increased strength, and endurance. The key difference and feature of exoskeletons that sets them apart from other types of mecha, is that they act as an extension your body and your physical movements are the controls. Most of the time exoskeletons just mirror the physical movements of the pilot inside of them, often limiting the design of them to being same basic from as the pilot. But extra abilities can be added and controlled with other systems like voice commands, a version of facial recognition (example, ranged weapons mounted on different parts on the mecha's body may track the eye movements and eye shape of the plot to aim and fire), mapping different actions to poses, or some other such system apart from the main one. The smallest exoskeletons can be is the size of the person who wears it, but there is no limit on how large exoskeletons can be outside of the physics of the materials they are made out of and the place there being used in (namely are they in space or a gravity well. On top of other factors).

I skimmed through that wall of text and I can't help but say that you are arguing semantics for the sake of arguing.
People don't refer to mecha as exo suit, or vice versa. Modern Call of Duty games don't refer to themselves as mecha games, even though characters in those games wear exo suits. Same as when you talking about Armored Core, you refer to those games as mecha games. Because that's what people are used to.
Just because those words vaguely describe similar mechanisms, doesn't change the fact that what players had in the FireFall is pretty different to what players will be wearing in Ember.

I want to make one thing clear. The second milestone is a resounding success, and the Omniframe concept was front and center in the video and on the fundraising page. It has more backers and raised nearly 20k. So the implication that I am misleading people is simply false here.

Also, I'm asking the community to back my vision of the game, not participate in a design hodge-podge free for all. I take feedback and input, but we don't vote on everything . The way you CAN steer is with the next milestone. And the success of Milestone 2, which is far, far, far greater than Milestone 1, tells me the frame design not going to be a detriment to the game.

That said, I've been reading all the input on the frames and have some ideas. But please stop spreading this false and misleading idea that I've somehow mislead people with the Omniframe. That's complete and utter horseshit.

I didn't accuse anyone, I simply pointed out the fact that people who paid for the forum milestone didn't know that characters in Ember will be wearing mecha type suits.

And I don't expect community to participate in designing the game, but with all the FireFall overhauls and numerous changes in its life time, can you blame me for asking for some transparency in the development process? Especially as I already pointed out that you are building the game from pure donations.

Milestones are one way to judge if you are moving in the right direction, but at the same time I am afraid there are plenty of people who might fall into the "too deep to quit now" trap of this system. You spend money on few milestones, it wouldn't matter if developers will be making something that you don't fully support, because if the project fails everything you spend on it so far would be complete waste, it only makes since to keep putting money into it.

And if you are okay with that, than all power to you, let's hope you can intrap enough whales who will throw down good money without asking too many questions, until the release heh.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

Milestones are one way to judge if you are moving in the right direction, but at the same time I am afraid there are plenty of people who might fall into the "too deep to quit now" trap of this system. You spend money on few milestones, it wouldn't matter if developers will be making something that you don't fully support, because if the project fails everything you spend on it so far would be complete waste, it only makes since to keep putting money into it.

The concept of thmpr, omniframe and tsihu was put up before the 2nd milestone started.
YOU HAD ENOUGH OPPORTUNITY AND TIME TO BACK OFF.

PS: the omniframe is the main reason why I'm excited about this game

 

[Grummz]

I deleted my post responding to Vladplaya. Everybody has a right to an opinion. Vlad will never like the Omniframe, and that's fine.

 

[MattHunX]

I would like to chip in. It's been brought up that Omniframes will be "too big" and "too powerful". Well, that's really about perspective, isn't it? If you're in an open world environment and most of the other things you encounter are scaled to roughly match the size of the Omniframe, then why would the Omniframe "feel" too big? If you're main enemy is an alien race that can shapeshift into giant monsters bigger than your omniframe, then I doubt you will feel too powerful. Grummz has talked about how he wants the combat to feel like Firefall did. So with this in mind, it's safe to assume that quick movement and similar weapons will follow suit.

I mean, I already pointed out to the OP that even the lore says the Tsihu's larger forms tear frames limb from limb.

If they’re not in humanoid form shooting at us, they are suddenly morphing into huge creatures that are tearing our omniframes apart hand to hand.

So we won't feel or be invincible, at all.

 

[MattHunX]

I've come around to the omni-frame's present concept, with pretty much my only two reservations being the appearance of the front, an optionally open or closed cockpit. And whether we will be able to slim our frame down with the customization system, to make it less bulky, built more for speed and maneuverability, scouting, dashing, dodging, sky-dancing...etc. all visually represented.

 

[MattHunX]

I deleted my post responding to Vladplaya. Everybody has a right to an opinion. Vlad will never like the Omniframe, and that's fine.

@Grummz Your reply is still there, though. FYI

Or did you un-delete it?

 

[Omnires]

I skimmed through that wall of text and I can't help but say that you are arguing semantics for the sake of arguing.
People don't refer to mecha as exo suit, or vice versa. Modern Call of Duty games don't refer to themselves as mecha games, even though characters in those games wear exo suits. Same as when you talking about Armored Core, you refer to those games as mecha games. Because that's what people are used to.
Just because those words vaguely describe similar mechanisms, doesn't change the fact that what players had in the FireFall is pretty different to what players will be wearing in Ember.

Really? That is what you are going with? You are going to say I'm arguing semantics when that is what your whole reply is? Just because there is one term you never heard before or is not used that often in the circles you are a part of you deem the everything about statement be untrue? Just because one term is unfamiliar to you doesn't mean it is false. The only reason some people use the term "exo-suit" is because like I said before, the smallest you can make an exoskeleton is the size of the person who is wearing it, and you can make the mecha look just normal clothes if you wanted to because things like soft armor and flexible armor do exist. But when you get the point where things are attached to your body or inside your body you have moved being an exoskeleton into cybernetics. And in cybernetics there are things called "dermal armor" where your skin itself is the armor and "subdermal armor" where you have armor just under your skin. And a few people use terms like "exo-suit" to make a difference between the mechanical armor a person wears on the outside of their body and the armor a person wears on the inside also called things like "endo armor" and "endo suits".

P.s. Just because marketing and advertising labels a game as something doesn't mean that is what it is. Because the marketing and advertising team may not fully understand what it is they are saying or ignoring parts of the game to target their marketing and advertising to one small group within the overall demographic. But just because they don't call it something doesn't mean the people who do understand it won't call it that because that is what it is.

 

[DARKB1KE]

I deleted my post responding to Vladplaya. Everybody has a right to an opinion. Vlad will never like the Omniframe, and that's fine.

The guy didn't even like FireFall, I don't know why he's here.

All this back and forth over a handful of photos is ridiculous. Being worried that a mech won't feel the way you want it to is ridiculous without having seen any form of gameplay at all. Even Mark has no clue how the mechs will feel in the final product, so arguing over it now is pointless. As to everyone arguing that the game should be exactly how they want it? That's a huge part of why Firefall failed. The devs make the game they want to make, if they're constantly revamping things just because this month's dominant voice is showing displeasure, we're going to end up in the same situation that cause Firefall to die

^^ Thank you! I'm sorry but way too many people letting hype and imagination get the better of them. If it's not going to play the way they imagine it to they will be disappointed. There is no way to please someone with this mindset.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

@Grummz Your reply is still there, though. FYI

Or did you un-delete it?

There was another (longer) reply of his before me.

 

[Vladplaya]

I deleted my post responding to Vladplaya. Everybody has a right to an opinion. Vlad will never like the Omniframe, and that's fine.

I actually wouldn't mind the omniframe as much if it had more armor on it to make it look like a legit mecha. But we already had huge discussion on this when the frame was first announced, and I don't want to beat a dead horse.

The guy didn't even like FireFall, I don't know why he's here.

Yeah no, I loved FireFall in closed beta, bought first 3 or 4 packs for 100 bucks each, hyped it up for my friends and tried to get as many of them to play it, and had a blast in the game. Then The9 took over and made it shit, and yeah I stopped liking it after that.

 

[Beemann]

If it did not have recoil that would mean very harsh range limits. No recoil also reduces the amount of skill in the game, not to mention removes a balancing metric.

We just do not need excessive recoil.

That's not really true at all though. There are ways to limit capability at long range without adding hard range caps or RNG to shots. Or are you suggesting that Tribes 1 and 2 are all about sniping with every weapon but the Chaingun?

Not arguing against 0 recoil, but I've made it clear previously that I think randomized recoil is trash

On the subject of the Omniframe vs FireFall's Battleframes or whatever, I actually like the new design a little bit better than the old ones. I think it's worth noting that the designs have always been more so style over functionality, and while there's elements of both that kinda irk me, I think the expectations surrounding something that moves a little closer to Mecha than pure Exo-suit (@Omnires you're misusing terminology in your semantic argument. A mecha as seen by the west is not an automaton or robot, because that implies no pilot. If you say Mecha, people think Mobile Suit Gundam, Gurren Lagann, etc, not Patlabor, Appleseed or GitS' Tachikoma/Fuchikoma, though moments of anthropomorphism are often a factor that distinguishes Mecha from Western Mechs within that context) will promote the game moving in a better direction as far as gameplay is concerned. Maybe we can skip out on floaty jetpboots and get big stompy punchy movements this time

Also I'm not seeing much sense in the idea that someone's opinion should be discredited based on how much they like or dislike a thing. I don't think such fanboyism is beneficial to the game, and really, the merit of one's arguments should be looked at, rather than how much you may like or dislike the person.

 

[Naku]

TBH i dont like of omniframe too much either. I woudl prefer Some bulky exoskeleton too (i really liked how my mammoth lokked in FF).

Abput omniframe head - justa tough but maybe it would ahve option to move on its own? LIek if we put few parts to make proper"body" for it (since right now only thing that connects upper and lower parts is this spine).