also this is something i would like to get of my chest. Here you have this awesome game, jetpacks, freeroam, awesome community and developers willing to work with the community... And then you have durability.
I compare it to, having a three course meal, gravy, more stuff than you could eat. At the end the cook brings you a banana. You're already full, this was the best meal you ever had and your first respond is "I D'ONt LIKE BANANS!!!! I HATE YOU!!! And throw a tantrum.
If you were my kids i'd smack ya.
I compare it to, having a three course meal, gravy, more stuff than you could eat. At the end the cook brings you a banana. You're already full, this was the best meal you ever had and your first respond is "I D'ONt LIKE BANANS!!!! I HATE YOU!!! And throw a tantrum.
If you were my kids i'd smack ya.
Likes:
Torgue_Joey
lol. I understand the sentiment, though in all fairness folks have every reason to be particular about how economic models with durability are handled. It can range from being a small thing in the background to being something you have to be very aware of most of the time. Depending on ones personal preferences, that is the difference between enjoying all of the rest of the stuff or having the rest of the stuff ruined. We don't take that lightly.
To use another food analogy, if you like peas, the more the merrier, and you might even miss them when they aren't in a certain dish. Alternatively if you don't like peas, its not that big of a deal if they are just a small portion in one corner of the plate. But if they are mixed in to everything on the plate, you get some in every bite, and that can ruin the whole meal.
Ultimately, since everyone has different tastes, it's about us making a certain kind of dish for a certain kind of consumer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, it's interesting to have these conversations about whether there should be any form of durability, or whether things should break or not. It's mostly to gauge community mindset on the issue. In truth the question was settled months ago in July. It was important to us that we were up front about how we were going to handle an issue that had such controversy in the past. As some folks want it one way, and other folks another way. That is why it plainly states in the initial indiegogo campaign "Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make)."
Is it possible there will be some change to that? Sure, to some degree. But most likely it would be in small ways, not likely to the degree of the one extreme of getting rid of durability entirely or the other extreme of having gear perma-break.
To use another food analogy, if you like peas, the more the merrier, and you might even miss them when they aren't in a certain dish. Alternatively if you don't like peas, its not that big of a deal if they are just a small portion in one corner of the plate. But if they are mixed in to everything on the plate, you get some in every bite, and that can ruin the whole meal.
Ultimately, since everyone has different tastes, it's about us making a certain kind of dish for a certain kind of consumer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, it's interesting to have these conversations about whether there should be any form of durability, or whether things should break or not. It's mostly to gauge community mindset on the issue. In truth the question was settled months ago in July. It was important to us that we were up front about how we were going to handle an issue that had such controversy in the past. As some folks want it one way, and other folks another way. That is why it plainly states in the initial indiegogo campaign "Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make)."
Is it possible there will be some change to that? Sure, to some degree. But most likely it would be in small ways, not likely to the degree of the one extreme of getting rid of durability entirely or the other extreme of having gear perma-break.
Sure, and i agree. Finding a middle ground seems the more reasonable solution. But to me it's like the finger and the arm. Look at what happened to FF at the end.
"OMG, Assaults can fly, it's not fair, i want it too" "Dreads can facetank, it's not fair, i want to facetank too". It's a bit crude to express it that way but give people what they want and they'll never be satisfied.
EAT YOUR DAMN VEDGIES!!!! It's like with kids, spoil them too much and you'll end up with a bunch of whiny brats.
Games have rules. Don' like the rules, go play outside with a stick. They are delicate ecosystem, not figments of your imagination where everything goes exactly the way you hope for. Especially MMOs.
"OMG, Assaults can fly, it's not fair, i want it too" "Dreads can facetank, it's not fair, i want to facetank too". It's a bit crude to express it that way but give people what they want and they'll never be satisfied.
EAT YOUR DAMN VEDGIES!!!! It's like with kids, spoil them too much and you'll end up with a bunch of whiny brats.
Games have rules. Don' like the rules, go play outside with a stick. They are delicate ecosystem, not figments of your imagination where everything goes exactly the way you hope for. Especially MMOs.
Last edited:
Likes:
Mahdi and Torgue_Joey
What went right and wrong with Firefall and the community at the time is a hard thing to put into words. So I won't try to here.
I will only say that the Em-8ER community has inherited some of the baggage/disappointment along with the hope/joy that firefall's community had. That said, we have to somewhat distance ourselves from certain parts of those old feelings that stem from an old and past situation. We have to let go of what came before to reach for the new.
Going forward into Em-8ER,it's neither about giving everyone what they want (as different people want different things) nor do we subscribe to the "Eat your vegetables" stance (As interactive entertainment is effectively the desert portion of a persons day). Whatever we make... It's not going to perfect, nothing is. Everyone is not going to be happy with every part of it, that's never the case. It's about following a singular unified vision. It's about listening to feedback,taking it to heart, but applying it only when it fits within that vision. It's about creating the kind of experience that is really enjoyable for those who like the kind of thing we are making.
I will only say that the Em-8ER community has inherited some of the baggage/disappointment along with the hope/joy that firefall's community had. That said, we have to somewhat distance ourselves from certain parts of those old feelings that stem from an old and past situation. We have to let go of what came before to reach for the new.
Going forward into Em-8ER,it's neither about giving everyone what they want (as different people want different things) nor do we subscribe to the "Eat your vegetables" stance (As interactive entertainment is effectively the desert portion of a persons day). Whatever we make... It's not going to perfect, nothing is. Everyone is not going to be happy with every part of it, that's never the case. It's about following a singular unified vision. It's about listening to feedback,taking it to heart, but applying it only when it fits within that vision. It's about creating the kind of experience that is really enjoyable for those who like the kind of thing we are making.
Likes:
Faeryl and Mahdi
Maybe, but you once said that that the biggest issues with FF was trying to appeal to everyone. I agree with that statement, just in a different way. Make it more like WoW, make it more like Eve.
A healthy economy is doable without adhering to the voice of the conditioned masses.
I never minded durability because i honestly didn't care. When my gear was broken i just stopped playing. There's always tomorrow. It's not that i support the draconian decay system of 0.7. It did however give me a change to put down my gaming addiction and spend my time doing something else for a while. Is that really such a bad thing?
maybe gaming addiction, ISN'T a good thing? Maybe, just maybe, item decay helped with that compulsion.
A healthy economy is doable without adhering to the voice of the conditioned masses.
I never minded durability because i honestly didn't care. When my gear was broken i just stopped playing. There's always tomorrow. It's not that i support the draconian decay system of 0.7. It did however give me a change to put down my gaming addiction and spend my time doing something else for a while. Is that really such a bad thing?
maybe gaming addiction, ISN'T a good thing? Maybe, just maybe, item decay helped with that compulsion.
That's the same way actually. WOW and EVE are too extremely different directions to take an economy in, trying to do both simultaneously will only serve to split the games direction in two. Such a thing splits both the various developers goals and the communities expectations apart as well. It's one thing to learn from all different types of games, it's a whole other thing to try to implement contradictory systems into the same model. A developer has to choose a direction, be unified in that vision, and stick to it to completion.
I'm glad to say that, internally, we arent split in mind on what kind of Economic model Em-8ER is meant to have. We are following Grummz lead quite well. On that, and on the everything else.
There are many ways to make a healthy economy. As far as the issues of the "conditioned masses" and "game addiction.", those are two whole discussions in themselves. I'm not looking to delve into them here. heh.
No worries on that front. We know where we are headed, and we bound and determined to get there. As I said, the official stance on the durability issue was expressed months ago. No major changes to it are expected.
I'm glad to say that, internally, we arent split in mind on what kind of Economic model Em-8ER is meant to have. We are following Grummz lead quite well. On that, and on the everything else.
There are many ways to make a healthy economy. As far as the issues of the "conditioned masses" and "game addiction.", those are two whole discussions in themselves. I'm not looking to delve into them here. heh.
No worries on that front. We know where we are headed, and we bound and determined to get there. As I said, the official stance on the durability issue was expressed months ago. No major changes to it are expected.
Games with horizontal progression must have sinks, because sinks = steady economy = steady rewards value and people want valuable rewards for their time and effort (basic MMO psychology). Do you remember what happened after removing decay from Firefall? Most players were happy, but after few weeks there was nothing to do (very low rewards value). Players have been doing the same jobs and events in the same small endgame zones, because in other zones rewards were worthless. Was it less frustrating than decay for you?
Decay in Firefall wasn't perfect, but after balancing and changing resource and crafting systems for much simpler, it wouldn't be so painful. It is possible to create decay, that won't be painful for players, but all connected system (resource, crafting, rewards, etc.) must match together. Red5 took one system from one game, second system from other game, but Red5 haven't realized that they don't match.
At this moment, we don't know much about Em-8ER. It will be MMO+shooter, but we don't know in which proportions. It could be 90% MMO with shooter combat, 90% shooter game with some MMO elements, or something between. I think, that Firefall around v0.7 had very good balance - player's skill was important (but you could play and have fun with low skill) and gear was important (but you could play and have fun with low quality gear).
Decay in Firefall wasn't perfect, but after balancing and changing resource and crafting systems for much simpler, it wouldn't be so painful. It is possible to create decay, that won't be painful for players, but all connected system (resource, crafting, rewards, etc.) must match together. Red5 took one system from one game, second system from other game, but Red5 haven't realized that they don't match.
At this moment, we don't know much about Em-8ER. It will be MMO+shooter, but we don't know in which proportions. It could be 90% MMO with shooter combat, 90% shooter game with some MMO elements, or something between. I think, that Firefall around v0.7 had very good balance - player's skill was important (but you could play and have fun with low skill) and gear was important (but you could play and have fun with low quality gear).
Likes:
Sn0wfIak3
No one is arguing against the need of sinks, the question is only about what those sinks should be. Moreover, there is some question of where sinks fit in to making playtime feel valuable to players.
I remember what happened when it was removed, I also remember what happened when it was added. There remains a lot of debate and different perspectives on what the result was at both times.
Indeed, I agree that it is possible to create a decay that isnt so painful for players, provided that is one of the goals of a game.
That just isnt something we are looking to do here with Em-8ER.
One thing we do know is that Em-8ER will not be an MMO.
The story of rest XP is well known to me, both from reading about it years ago and from discussing it with Grummz is recent months.
Worth noting that-
"In the beta version of the original world of warcraft game, rest did not exist and experience was designed to prevent players from playing more than few hours in a row. Experience gained was simply halved after few hours. However, beta-testers did not like it and rest was implemented, giving instead 200% of experience for few hours, which Blizzard's developers later reported as being the "same numbers seen from the opposite point of view" "
The lesson I got from the rest XP story was that there is a way to implement very similar behavior based mechanics using positive reinforcement as opposed to negative reinforcement. Which I do not personally believe that lessen was properly applied to the refining/printer design of either the patch 6 to 9 timeframe nor the 1.0 versions of firefall. (btw, I think your "gem" idea is a reasonable reflection of the lessen learned there)
I remember what happened when it was removed, I also remember what happened when it was added. There remains a lot of debate and different perspectives on what the result was at both times.
Indeed, I agree that it is possible to create a decay that isnt so painful for players, provided that is one of the goals of a game.
That just isnt something we are looking to do here with Em-8ER.
One thing we do know is that Em-8ER will not be an MMO.
The story of rest XP is well known to me, both from reading about it years ago and from discussing it with Grummz is recent months.
Worth noting that-
"In the beta version of the original world of warcraft game, rest did not exist and experience was designed to prevent players from playing more than few hours in a row. Experience gained was simply halved after few hours. However, beta-testers did not like it and rest was implemented, giving instead 200% of experience for few hours, which Blizzard's developers later reported as being the "same numbers seen from the opposite point of view" "
The lesson I got from the rest XP story was that there is a way to implement very similar behavior based mechanics using positive reinforcement as opposed to negative reinforcement. Which I do not personally believe that lessen was properly applied to the refining/printer design of either the patch 6 to 9 timeframe nor the 1.0 versions of firefall. (btw, I think your "gem" idea is a reasonable reflection of the lessen learned there)
Em-8ER isn't an MMO, though I don't believe that binge issues only exist with the mmo genre, so those concerns remain relevant.
Still, we have to seek out the positive reinforcement version of averting that behavior whenever possible. As I mentioned before, I think your gem idea does a reasonable job of that. Though I'm not certain I fully know what you mean when you say "refining/printer" idea.
Still, we have to seek out the positive reinforcement version of averting that behavior whenever possible. As I mentioned before, I think your gem idea does a reasonable job of that. Though I'm not certain I fully know what you mean when you say "refining/printer" idea.
Likes:
Sn0wfIak3
Yeah i guess. Honestly i don't know, i'm not a game designer. A gem system was the best i could come up with now. You need some type of tredmill, doesn't have to be big or even important but "grind" will always be a part of long term games. Look at Skyrim. There's grind in Skyrim, it just doesn't feel teadios becasue you're allowed to do and go wherever you want and still "level up".
Likes:
Faeryl and Ronyn
If by grind you mean something to chase, I would agree that players generally need things to keep on chasing. If by treadmill you mean a reason to do the same missions/zones/areas repeatedly, I would agree that there should to be systems in place to keep areas relevant to the player. So I think we are on the same general page there.
What I seek to caution everyone against is viewing all versions of "something to do" as equally effective motivators for players.
Historically, there have been things that are far more effective at motivating players than others, while other mechanics/systems prove to be effective at various other tasks. Knowing what does what is important, and knowing what really motivates players is key. We definitely want to keep that mind when designing any system. I look forward to the time when Grummz publicly reveals a bit more about what will be motivating players in Em-8ER to keep on playing.
What I seek to caution everyone against is viewing all versions of "something to do" as equally effective motivators for players.
Historically, there have been things that are far more effective at motivating players than others, while other mechanics/systems prove to be effective at various other tasks. Knowing what does what is important, and knowing what really motivates players is key. We definitely want to keep that mind when designing any system. I look forward to the time when Grummz publicly reveals a bit more about what will be motivating players in Em-8ER to keep on playing.
Likes:
Faeryl and Mahdi
True, but this is why i also support a true ecosystem. Certain specialized players would gravitate towards certain areas, doing specific tasks, even level up in them. I for one hate thumping, but loved tornado chasing. If both gave different types of rewards of equal value a natural trade would come from this. I would even go so far as to create hot-spots with actual markets. Non of that, "push a button" to buy an item. Actual markets where people would have to socialize.
Bring the MM, back in MMO. The more a resource ups in quantity, the more it declines in price. Merchants would be NPCs.
Last edited:
Letting people focus their playtime on the types of missions they personally enjoy is definitely part of the goal for Em-8ER. The world being more akin to a real ecosystem in some sense where different places yield different challenges and rewards has merit.
As for how Em-8ER will handle rewards is yet to be revealed.
Your thoughts about how much the markets should push interaction could lead to a fascinating discussion. It's a matter of how large or small an amount of time and focus the game intends the players to spend on economic concerns. Pushing for social interactions through market design is an interesting concept when looking at games in general but not necessarily applicable to Em-8ER. Considering that we arent making an MMO, many of the goals and/or expectations of that genre have no bearing on what Em-8ER is meant to be.
As for how Em-8ER will handle rewards is yet to be revealed.
Your thoughts about how much the markets should push interaction could lead to a fascinating discussion. It's a matter of how large or small an amount of time and focus the game intends the players to spend on economic concerns. Pushing for social interactions through market design is an interesting concept when looking at games in general but not necessarily applicable to Em-8ER. Considering that we arent making an MMO, many of the goals and/or expectations of that genre have no bearing on what Em-8ER is meant to be.
Likes:
Sn0wfIak3
You haven't figured out the tricky part of my scheme yet. Since the refinement and merchants are governed by NPCs they can artificially alter the stock market.
Kern and co can manipulate prices depending on fluctuations.
Look at it this way: certain content isn't being played enough as it doesn't bring in enough cash, lower the price a bit, BAM, more people will play that content. It's manipulative but it works.
It's all just theory crafting.
We'll se what ember turns out, but never ending war plus resource gathering without a dirrect goal, i don't have high hopes for it. Unless Grummz tends to build new content every month. (same problem we ran into FF1.0)
IMO, you need some type of threadmill, it just shouldn't feel punishing.
Plus: Donwntime. You need donwtime, the best times i had in FF was just hanging around.
Kern and co can manipulate prices depending on fluctuations.
Look at it this way: certain content isn't being played enough as it doesn't bring in enough cash, lower the price a bit, BAM, more people will play that content. It's manipulative but it works.
It's all just theory crafting.
We'll se what ember turns out, but never ending war plus resource gathering without a dirrect goal, i don't have high hopes for it. Unless Grummz tends to build new content every month. (same problem we ran into FF1.0)
IMO, you need some type of threadmill, it just shouldn't feel punishing.
Plus: Donwntime. You need donwtime, the best times i had in FF was just hanging around.
Last edited:
DIRECT GOAL: TERRAFORM THE F*CKING PLANET TO ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY PERCENT. POCKET BY POCKET.
GAZILLION OF RESOURCES PER POCKET. WE GONNA NEED MORE BADASS REAPERS TO DEFEND THE OTHER POCKET WHILE THE OTHER BUILD BASES 'N SH*T IN THE NEW POCKET.
ONE DAY, ONE DAY WE'LL MANAGE TO F*CK OVER THE PLANET. WHAT THEN?
TO THE NEXT PLANET!
DIBS ON THAT! I FAILED AN ASS SH*T EVENT. NOW I GOTTA DROWN MY FAILURE. IN BEVERAGES.
OH, AND @Ronyn
ONE THING IS CONFUSING ME. OR PRECISELY. PISSING ME OFF.
THOSE BABBLES ABOUT XP AND LEVELS.... THE F*CK, THOUGHT WE ALL GONNA BE LIKE FOREVER LEVEL ONE NAPS. UNLOCKING OUR CRAPS THROUGH RESOURCES?
DID I F*CKING MISSED SOMETHING?
GAZILLION OF RESOURCES PER POCKET. WE GONNA NEED MORE BADASS REAPERS TO DEFEND THE OTHER POCKET WHILE THE OTHER BUILD BASES 'N SH*T IN THE NEW POCKET.
ONE DAY, ONE DAY WE'LL MANAGE TO F*CK OVER THE PLANET. WHAT THEN?
TO THE NEXT PLANET!
DIBS ON THAT! I FAILED AN ASS SH*T EVENT. NOW I GOTTA DROWN MY FAILURE. IN BEVERAGES.
OH, AND @Ronyn
ONE THING IS CONFUSING ME. OR PRECISELY. PISSING ME OFF.
THOSE BABBLES ABOUT XP AND LEVELS.... THE F*CK, THOUGHT WE ALL GONNA BE LIKE FOREVER LEVEL ONE NAPS. UNLOCKING OUR CRAPS THROUGH RESOURCES?
DID I F*CKING MISSED SOMETHING?
Likes:
Mahdi