Regarding recoil

[Yrkul]

Muzzle climb and a minimum of screen shake can help the shooting feel a bit "meatier". However, the way Red5 did it was way too heavyhanded and didn't take things like simulation sickness into account. It would also be a nifty detail, if we had options to modify our weapons with everything from scopes and longer magazines to muzzle brakes and suppressors.

 

[Cadbane]

Some type of Recoil, error or drift is needed. Even a sniper rifle should have some kickback. I get it is the future and by all rights, the technology has eliminated this type of thing.

But if we are so technologically advance, lets just have beam weapons for all guns, that never miss. Every 3 seconds a AOE blast grenade should hit the target your aiming at for good measure. I mean my suit and its OS should aim and pull the trigger for me.... Realistically so far in the future, Why do I need any different type of weapon, when the future would have one ultimate weapon you can fire from the safety of say orbit.. Do you sense the sarcasm yet?

I am completely for no screen shakes and the stuff that makes people sick. So maybe the alternative is, do not shake the screen offset the recticle after a single shot, drift it on a chaingun that is shooting 100 RPS, have some error when shooting bombs / grenade projectiles. I get it is all futuristic fantasy stuff, but I need a challenge in a shooter MMO. The first challenge is mastering my shooting skill.

Skill (hitting things) can be enhanced with better equipment, better gear and most importantly more play time. Please no easy buttons, if your gonna make one, sit me in orbit with a beam ray.

TLDR; I guess I want skill to be an important factor. I do not want to play a walk in the park game, that hands out participation achievements to everyone for showing up.

 

[Vedemin]

Some type of Recoil, error or drift is needed. Even a sniper rifle should have some kickback. I get it is the future and by all rights, the technology has eliminated this type of thing.

But if we are so technologically advance, lets just have beam weapons for all guns, that never miss. Every 3 seconds a AOE blast grenade should hit the target your aiming at for good measure. I mean my suit and its OS should aim and pull the trigger for me.... Realistically so far in the future, Why do I need any different type of weapon, when the future would have one ultimate weapon you can fire from the safety of say orbit.. Do you sense the sarcasm yet?

I am completely for no screen shakes and the stuff that makes people sick. So maybe the alternative is, do not shake the screen offset the recticle after a single shot, drift it on a chaingun that is shooting 100 RPS, have some error when shooting bombs / grenade projectiles. I get it is all futuristic fantasy stuff, but I need a challenge in a shooter MMO. The first challenge is mastering my shooting skill.

Skill (hitting things) can be enhanced with better equipment, better gear and most importantly more play time. Please no easy buttons, if your gonna make one, sit me in orbit with a beam ray.

TLDR; I guess I want skill to be an important factor. I do not want to play a walk in the park game, that hands out participation achievements to everyone for showing up.

I think that kickback should increase with caliber and damage. I hate when there is no recoil as lack of it makes your weapon feel very weak. Personally I love the recoil in Red Orchestra 2, it's a very nice system. Error is a bad thing as it is RNG instead of skill.

 

[Aphaz]

i'm all for recoil, if done properly...but the idea some1 gave b4 about being able to modify ur frame to compensate for it at the cost of smt else is also very nice.

 

[DARKB1KE]

Doom removed that as a call back to the original which didn't have it, because it was the first FPS. (I doubt they knew how to program that back then)

Maybe. Back then though you just ran out of ammo and had to find pickups instead of reloading.

 

[avalon1k]

"I think you mean 50 caliber sniper rifles. A 50mm round would be approx. 2" in diameter and the rifle itself would barely be man portable. A 50 caliber round is half an inch in diameter, 1/4 the size of a 50mm."



You are right. A 50mm would be more like a tank killer. A very large "gun". Thirty MM GAU-8 Avenger can chew right through a tanks armour (mounted in an A-10)

 

[Aphaz]

You are right. A 50mm would be more like a tank killer. A very large "gun". Thirty MM GAU-8 Avenger can chew right through a tanks armour (mounted in an A-10)

well (just to be every1's lawyer as we say it in my country...rofl) there was a story quest in FF where u helped Oilspill with some work on his ship (IIRC you had to carry/move some rly heavy parts and he said smt like "I don't have a BF to do it..."), so if a frame can lift a ton, then holding a 50mm cannon steady could be feasible...that said, i still would like to have recoil in the game, just not (ofc) screen shakes,

 

[PCMasterReece]

well (just to be every1's lawyer as we say it in my country...rofl) there was a story quest in FF where u helped Oilspill with some work on his ship (IIRC you had to carry/move some rly heavy parts and he said smt like "I don't have a BF to do it..."), so if a frame can lift a ton, then holding a 50mm cannon steady could be feasible...tha sain, i still would like to have recoil in the game, just not (ofc) screen shakes,

Minor recoil would be nice, the type that makes your gun raise up when you shoot. Check McCree in Overwatch when you use Fan The Hammer. I like that type of recoil

 

[EvilKitten]

Getting rid of recoil entirely would be akin to stringing out a line and having it be perfectly straight while hanging a weight in the middle, utterly impossible. You can get it to be really small, and you can provide compensation for it but no amount of technology that we today can envision can break Newtonian physics. There is going to be some movement, even if it is a small jitter.

 

[NoahDVS]

As long as it's not as bad as this, recoil shouldn't be that much of a problem for most people.

 

[TankHunter678]

Getting rid of recoil entirely would be akin to stringing out a line and having it be perfectly straight while hanging a weight in the middle, utterly impossible. You can get it to be really small, and you can provide compensation for it but no amount of technology that we today can envision can break Newtonian physics. There is going to be some movement, even if it is a small jitter.

The question becomes, how apparent will/should it be to the player?

Reticle bloom is one way recoil can be shown without the need for things like screen climb or camera shake. Easily explained away in that the suit can micro adjust to prevent the weapon from climbing up and prevent the recoil from affecting the pilot, but the weapon jittering is still going to cause some of the rounds to be off target.

Back in Firefall the most accurate of assault rifles for sustained fire were Beam rifles (makes sense) which also became the number one assault rifle type to use come 1.6. Beam Assault Rifles had almost 0 climbing recoil, no screen shake, and compared to ballistic assault rifles were much more efficient to use. You were not fighting the weapon. Before 1.6 ballistic assault rifles were fine, you just had to use shorter bursts for sustained accurate fire and you did not have to fight the weapon.

 

[NoahDVS]

The question becomes, how apparent will/should it be to the player?

Reticle bloom is one way recoil can be shown without the need for things like screen climb or camera shake. Easily explained away in that the suit can micro adjust to prevent the weapon from climbing up and prevent the recoil from affecting the pilot, but the weapon jittering is still going to cause some of the rounds to be off target.

Back in Firefall the most accurate of assault rifles for sustained fire were Beam rifles (makes sense) which also became the number one assault rifle type to use come 1.6. Beam Assault Rifles had almost 0 climbing recoil, no screen shake, and compared to ballistic assault rifles were much more efficient to use. You were not fighting the weapon. Before 1.6 ballistic assault rifles were fine, you just had to use shorter bursts for sustained accurate fire and you did not have to fight the weapon.

Ehh, all beam weapons were superior before 1.6 as well simply because they had better damage output. After 1.6, beam weapons didn't have better damage, but they did have no damage falloff which was still very good, especially on shotguns.

 

[TankHunter678]

Ehh, all beam weapons were superior before 1.6 as well simply because they had better damage output. After 1.6, beam weapons didn't have better damage, but they did have no damage falloff which was still very good, especially on shotguns.

If I remember correctly they had better damage output because of a particular perk which would cause energy damage (which beam changed your weapon to) to arc to nearby targets. Which is what made them better for straight damage output because it added AoE. Not to mention Radiant Beam also gave your shots piercing, which was especially awesome for Shotguns since it turned them into a dangerous weapon that could clear groups very rapidly thanks to piercing and the arcs.

After 1.6 beam weapons just got the extra benefit of basically ignoring the recoil system put into the game in addition to the no damage falloff.

 

[NoahDVS]

If I remember correctly they had better damage output because of a particular perk which would cause energy damage (which beam changed your weapon to) to arc to nearby targets. Which is what made them better for straight damage output because it added AoE. Not to mention Radiant Beam also gave your shots piercing, which was especially awesome for Shotguns since it turned them into a dangerous weapon that could clear groups very rapidly thanks to piercing and the arcs.

After 1.6 beam weapons just got the extra benefit of basically ignoring the recoil system put into the game in addition to the no damage falloff.

No, they also just had better DPS with smaller magazine sizes and lower ROF as a trade off. They got to have better damage and better perks.

 

[Vedemin]

"I think you mean 50 caliber sniper rifles. A 50mm round would be approx. 2" in diameter and the rifle itself would barely be man portable. A 50 caliber round is half an inch in diameter, 1/4 the size of a 50mm."



You are right. A 50mm would be more like a tank killer. A very large "gun". Thirty MM GAU-8 Avenger can chew right through a tanks armour (mounted in an A-10)

No, not modern tanks. A-10's cannon is not so effective anymore. #Su-25masterrace

 

[t3hsquirr3l]

Honestly, arguments regarding the realism of recoil and accuracy in video games are ridiculous and just need to be dropped.

The only factor that matters is player preference. The lore can be explained later if anyone cares.

Now I personally prefer recoil, especially if it's the kind you can learn and compensate for. It adds another type of skill that I enjoy.

Spread/bloom is appropriate for weapons that are inherently inaccurate, like a shotgun or perhaps very high RoF weapons. Other than those cases it annoys me due to RNG affecting my aim.

I believe the solution is to include the various preferences in a combination of weapon diversity and menu options, such as disabling camera shake.

Solid projectile weapons have recoil, energy weapons do not, and endless combinations in between through weapon types and customization.

Might be a tall order with the style of development planned for Ember, but possible I think. Include at least one option with and without recoil as soon as possible, and maybe later have one milestone dedicated to adding weapon variety.

 

[EvilKitten]

I am a big fan of the expanding reticle as well, after all when you have weapon climb it isn't your head (eyes) that is moving its the gun. So yeah no need for the whole view to shake. Would be kinda interesting if the tip of your weapon showed up in 1st person mode and you could see it vibrate/move a bit when you fired.

 

[Nunaden]

I would actually liek to see recoil. FF had recoil back then too existing in 2 mechanics: "Accuracy recoil" (a shot makes your weapon temporary more inaccurate, FF was a disaster with the "time from trigger held" mechanic, that was pretty annoying when using the alt fire of teh arsenal...) and normal recoil (iron sight jumps around, it existed on the secondary weapons while aiming down the sight).

Muzzle devices are available to redirect the muzzle blast upwards to counter act this, but there are trade offs in using said devices, such as being blinded by the muzzle flash since the majority of it is now traveling upwards rather than out.

That gets easily solved with using one of the uncountable holosights, collimators, assault scopes, hybrid sights and long range optics (like the nightforce NXS series). But there are still some that won't really help, like the Trijicon RMR col. sight or the Leopold deltapoint compact collimator (they are maybe nice on some pumpaction shotguns like the Benelli M3 mod.2, MP-133 or
Franchi SPAS-12, but i guess not not on the Saiga 12k and the Saiga FA...)

 

[Dubbelklik]

I think you mean 50 caliber sniper rifles. A 50mm round would be approx. 2" in diameter and the rifle itself would barely be man portable. A 50 caliber round is half an inch in diameter, 1/4 the size of a 50mm.

You are correct. I did mean 50 cal.

 

[Beemann]

I disagree. All I hear about from the Run-n-Gun crowd is "skill". That's a load of garbage. Run-n-Gun is all about the twitch. I enjoyed OBFF in spite of this.

I am in favor of recoil for projectile weapons because it requires actual skill.

Randomized recoil is not a factor of skill, it's a test of patience. Recoil used in a predictable manner that can be compensated for is fine, but both will most certainly affect the pacing of your game. It all depends on whether you want your game to be fast and fluid or slower and more "tactical"

Additionally, what are you considering "Run-n-Gun"? Quake is definitely not all about twitch, and is basically a game of constant plate-spinning, much like RTS games are

Doom removed that as a call back to the original which didn't have it, because it was the first FPS. (I doubt they knew how to program that back then)

DOOM wasn't the first FPS, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people who managed to develop some of the most important tech in FPS history could easily have put a reload function into a game that fakes 3D using 2D sprites