Ranting about Toxic Positivity + Attempted Heads Up about the Pretty Awful PR

[Morihaus]

Nobody I know likes Star Citizen. Nobody likes the Forever Demo setup. Nobody likes $500 backer packs. Nobody likes wondering where their money is going if it's not going into releasing the actual game. And nobody wants to be a laughing stock for making a sales pitch for vaporware, tech demos, and concept art to people.

See where I'm going with this? Same applies to EM8ER. The more devoted of the community have you blinded to how most people see your software. Outside of the Discord you are a laughing stock right now, just like Star Citizen is outside of it's current community. You've lost a lot of good will over the years and have nothing but some marketing and basic demos to show for it. Only a handful of people are going to back this game (that haven't already bought-in) come Kickstarter. Given how many people you've burned with so little progress past skins these past couple years, I'd be unsurprised if another "hit piece" on YouTube won't release first to coincide with the eventual Kickstarter in 2043.

I quite literally can not post any newsletters or game planning updates right now. You know why? It's all marketing. No content. No final Kickstarter date. No release estimates. Just backer rewards and concept art for people with cash to burn, along with even more marketing we're all sick of hearing. Nobody wants to hear that. Nobody outside the Discord cares about that. Most people see it as a scam.

We want to see EM8ER actually released, but we don't want to throw money at it for the next 20 years. As it stands, to people who hadn't heard of EM8ER, this genuinely just looks like a scam that'll never release because you think you can milk more money from backers than selling a full product.

We want a GAME. Not demos, not marketing, not concepts, not a copycat of Star Citizen's infinite money machine.

(Also, to Mark specifically, PLEASE for the love of all Kaiju everywhere, just stop comparing the game to Star Citizen. This is a MASSIVE red flag to everyone that's not currently indoctrinated into thinking their little never ending backer hell is normal.)

 

[Pandagnome]

stop comparing the game to Star Citizen. This is a MASSIVE red flag

Perhaps its the immersion of getting inside vehicles and the exploration that appeals with the comparison rather than saying its the same because that is quite daft to say it is.

You've lost a lot of good will over the years and have nothing but some marketing and basic demos to show for it.

Lost some time but not the hope i'd want some real evidence otherwise if progress isn't happening it could be all for nothing which i am still waiting for that ..."Now what you got to say for yourself, its Here!

We want to see EM8ER actually released, but we don't want to throw money at it for the next 20 years.

That is one scary nightmare :O

We want a GAME. Not demos

YEAAAAAA for the gameee


Em8er must rise do not fail or we shall never come into exsistance and our fellow heroic Reapers will perish in the deepest darkest hole of the oblivion of nothingness aaaaaaaaaaaaaHHHH

P.s please make Em8er game because every xmas i wonder if this will happen hmm

 

[Sy]

+1

However it happens, it needs to have a community and significant hype well before Kickstarter, otherwise it would fail.

Having something demonstrable will not be enough for success. At some point things have to pivot from making something almost-functional to include marketing.

There was a mention about having things be more forward-facing, with more visible things which videos could be made from. I think that's a good development direction.

 

[liandri]

A serious of good points.

Basically this. Mark asked for some positivity back in early November, then pivoted to gameplay and stopping pack sales. A good choice. But so was the Roadmap, which milestones (though not committed to) are still slowly being achieved some 17 months later. I hope this pivot comes with renewed vigor and isn't just an excuse to squeeze out some goodwill and drive people to the monthly patron.

There was a mention about having things be more forward-facing, with more visible things which videos could be made from. I think that's a good development direction.

The idea to have a large group of community members (and the devs) streaming and engaging the online community at KS is always one I have liked. Hype should be generated leading up to that point, with the same community actively playing in the game. But you do need a game.

 

[zabernat#1238]

I’ve been saying this for a while, but it would be a lot easier to generate hype when we have media, characters, and activities to interact with. Not everyone even cares about the Gatestriders TTRPG, but that could absolutely drive engagement and I’m looking forward to that before even the next demo.

 

[Pandagnome]

generate hype when we have media, characters, and activities to interact with

Nice trailer and also those superb spotlight of the manufacturer with what there was to offer.

Nice selection of characters (With good customization options to look the part!)


Activities to do such as:

- Constructing your first device, bike etc
- Find others to help you take back selected tsihu captured territory
- Do a mini mission to escort npc children safely into your prototype dropship heading out to the sky city
- Use ingame rewards to unlock stuff at this time with alpha/beta selection during this exclusive period.
- First novel of Em8er located in the HQ of Reaper Council office!

 

[Dreamin]

Too much work to take quotes from each separate post and formulate the reply, sry.

(TLDR) Get off your damn @$& and do something already Mark! (@Grummz)

@Morihaus ; I have forced myself to stay away due to disappointment in many of the points you have made. I suggest you and those of us with like mindsets completely forget about the discord server, it is basically a drop box being used for the "team" to transfer a few files here and there. Why they use it instead of the backend of the forums, I'd guess it's to make it appear something is happening...

On the Star Citizen part, I would guess he might have felt a need to start comparing the "game" (concept) to something the youth of today might remember but definitely not have really played. After all, that is where the disposable income is the youth, usually, and only a portion of us older gamers ever actually experienced Firefall. No one can download and old version of it to have an idea of what the game he may be making is supposed to actually compare to.

@Pandagnome ; Always so positive with a vivid imagination. I love that, never let it go.

@Sy ; Your probably right, but you got Mark completely backward. First, I think he really is a marketing genius (Madoff-ish), just not much the "Do-er". He is quit the storyteller. Also, I think, he is fantastic at creating videos of things that don't exist, not taking things that exist and making videos with them, though I'm sure this will be argued

@liandri ; Hehehe.... 17 months... hehehe.... say WHAT!? I think you may have just been trying to be nice with that, I hope at least. Not dogging YOU at all, but the timeline is a wee bit longer than that. The hype WAS there, it was just a long time ago.

@zabernat#1238 ; "The way it used to be" was approximately a game developer would market a game concept, get a small amount funding to produce a demo, produce it, promote the demo widely for free, then open kicking start type funding ventures to fund up to alpha release stage where further funding interests and player feedback would push further development or cancelation, whichever was most appropriate. Media, characters, and activities to interact with was all part of the original demo, that is what created the hype, the demo and the wait for the alpha/beta releases that would occur within the next 6-18 months.

Mark has almost followed this except with; MUCH MUCH too MUCH procrastination, and the ever continuing, non stop selling of images and promises. At this point though, there are very few investors that will look at the progress to date and believe they will get any ROI (return on investment).

@Pandagnome ; Always so positive with a vivid imagination. I love that, never let it go.



I am not giving up on the game, and I do not want anyone else to either. BUT, we all may be playing Battlefield 2030 or Fortnight 8 or Star Citizen 3.0 or World of Tank 6.2 before we are playing a full release here. If you try to hold your breath waiting you may either become a hyperventilation junky or an Olympic Free Diving medalist first.

Best wishes all,

 

[liandri]

@liandri ; Hehehe.... 17 months... hehehe.... say WHAT!? ... the timeline is a wee bit longer than that

The Roadmap I'm referring to was from the end of June 2022, which is 17 months ago. The hype was there, but even at that time there was a lack of confidence since the roadmap's completion within the 5-6 months it covered was based on higher backer pack sales; a condition that some people, myself included, found a little suspect. The hype died out pretty quickly (since goals weren't met, then there was a long lack of updates).

At this rate, yes, you might be playing other games, but it's likely another project will swoop in and take over the Firefall successor title. Em-8ER wouldn't have much left without it.

 

[Pandagnome]

Get off your damn @$& and do something already Mark!

You may not see my butt move however my mind does & so does my chair...

The computer screen lights up with a purpose & so continues on generating maps and eventually worlds!.

Always so positive with a vivid imagination. I love that, never let it go.

Thanks i do try and these things have helped me most:

- Not using a mobile phone or taking it everywhere (Good for the mind)
- Surrounding with more positive and creative folks if possible (Thankfully my small work provides the right setting)
- Eating generally as healthy as possible with the odd rewards to keep me on my toes
- At least 2 x week of weight training to maintain strength otherwise could be blown away by a gust of wind! (Inspired with inspiring people at the gym)
- 3 x week of cycling due to work and 2 x week of basketball because its fun shoot hoops and blabber with others.
- Computer for getting some work done, playing games, and checking other things. (Switching off computer is good too)
- Family time important backbone support, and a strong happy family keeps each other in check
- Making time for yourself health is an investment too
- Watching retro shows/movies etc or whatever in the mood for nostalgic reasons and to be motivated too. (They don't make shows like they used to ......sounding more and more like my wiser relatives )

I am not giving up on the game, and I do not want anyone else to either. BUT, we all may be playing Battlefield 2030 or Fortnight 8 or Star Citizen 3.0 or World of Tank 6.2 before we are playing a full release here. If you try to hold your breath waiting you may either become a hyperventilation junky or an Olympic Free Diving medalist first.

I don't really have much faith in the new games compared to years ago.
The reason is not much that appeals to me, there are some with cookie cutter templates with reskins etc etc

The idea of playing in an open world, with others to form teams and stop huge kaijus and invading opponents from taking over territories and customization of characters and other things sounds like a fun deal.

There is alot to be excited about and then there is certainly questions on when is it happening time?

Back to the child in the car analogy:

Child: "Are we there yet"

Driver: Pats the child's head "soon soon",

Child: "but i want now this very moment because otherwise i will not be able to cope and my current toys/games have entertained me for a measly 5mins"

Driver: "Play with the other games we are going to make a pit stop for a refresher hold on just abit"

Child: "You said that before and if i weeee then its all your fault"

Driver: "Sigh fine stops vehicle in the middle of desert points to a few cactus and nice stones look its a green martian enjoying the sun, looking at pebbles woooow"

Driver and child: Drink some water and look on at the strange emptiness for a while

Child: "WAAAAAAAAAAOW thanks i am better now can we go now"

Driver: "ok now remember we still got a long way to go we can certainly make some stops and find and see new things during this journey"

Child: Sure, when do we eat? where is the other Martians? What will happen when it gets dark? Can't you drive the vehicle at Mk 10 speeds?

Driver: "Good questions, eating in 30mins time at the next stop, Martians are everywhere and have already landed, when it gets dark the moon comes out and looks at everyone because its bored, sadly this vehicle can only go 150mph and don't want to crash or break the vehicle!!!!!!!!!!!

Child: blinks, "okaaay, just keep driving i am going to sleep"

Driver: nods you do that

Child: Opens one eye lid "not for long or i will be 99 years old"

Driver: Yup yup, just snooze got an alarm

Child: drifts off to sleep mumbles "greeaat"

Driver: Ponders got to get to the destination, got to refuel, got to keep child happy, got to eat soon, got to get sleep, got to help family, got to .............................................takes a deep breath keep focused and calm takes a deep breathe out "aaaaah"

 

[Pandagnome]

Not really a complaint more of a thought:

When watching sports we like to think of the youth of the next generation to help us and generate interest.
This doesn't always work as you can tell the team may have adjusting issues or have a different kind of mind set etc

Do not forget the regulars the so called Vets who have experience and perhaps not as much time compared to the younger.

A compliment of all sorts such as a bag of jelly babies can bring the right balance. Sure not everyone is going to agree with everything, but at least we can cover important points to produce a game worthy of a bigger audience.

Advocators of Em8er forum make yourself heard if not now... you are merely a Reaper hiding behind one's palm tree in the hope for the coconuts to drop on the opponents noggin for success.

2024 is the year of ACTION we wait patiently for good developments and Success.

(If it is still an ongoing process in 2025 i am going to prioritize on other things and check back monthly or wait for an exciting news letter to appear down the road!)

 

[Dam13n]

My advice is still the same as it has been for a while;

• Add craftable consumables (preferably in rarities and pretty powerful) now we got a treadmill.
• Add some basic dynamic events, deathsquads, kneebiters nests (preferably with a "feral" faction that also attacks other NPCs, so to recreate some of the randomness of Firefall's open world)
• Add a (very) basic invasion (just some structure in the middle of the map that gets attacked on a timer. If quantity of NPCs is a bottleneck, "elite" versions will do as a placeholder)
• Make the reward for completing the main event, crafting components for the higher end consumables.

Now you have yourself a very, very basic version of Firefall open beta. Which was enough for a lot of us to entertain ourselves with for a year. It has proven itself to work.


Edit; Maybe in the name of simplifying, just two tiers of consumables might also do the trick. The lower ones you would mostly use in the open world and the higher ones to deal with the main event, especially if not many people show up.

 

[Pandagnome]

My advice is still the same as it has been for a while;

• Add craftable consumables (preferably in rarities and pretty powerful) now we got a treadmill.
• Add some basic dynamic events, deathsquads, kneebiters nests (preferably with a "feral" faction that also attacks other NPCs, so to recreate some of the randomness of Firefall's open world)
• Add a (very) basic invasion (just some structure in the middle of the map that gets attacked on a timer. If quantity of NPCs is a bottleneck, "elite" versions will do as a placeholder)
• Make the reward for completing the main event, crafting components for the higher end consumables.

Now you have yourself a very, very basic version of Firefall open beta. Which was enough for a lot of us to entertain ourselves with for a year. It has proven itself to work.

I'd also like to see a bike even if it is by collecting mashed up salvaged parts to create a Frankenstein bike.
Then we can have our very first tankcycle doesn't turn very well an above average top speed although it is tough!

 

[Dam13n]

Just a thought.

As it seemed you guys are working on your animation and improving motion capture for the demo. Could it be possible that as a reward for subscribers, emotes could be added, that could be added to the demo quicker, than full blown skins?

Just to put something in their hands sooner rather than eventually. Given that there is already a large catalogue of skins and i am assuming here, emotes might be easier to produce with the current motion capture stuff.