On frame entry

Sy

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Nov 16, 2018
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sya.li
#1
I highly recommend that whenever Demo Talk is active with staff and streaming that you start up your build and join in. If I'm there, I'll take notes. (staff, you can DM me.)

There was productive conversation while @ChAzZ_NuT was streaming the other day. In it, the rough model of the heavy prompted discussion about vehicle entry.

Many of us have seen Anthem videos with their frame entry animation. In it, their frame up and the player is given a first-person view of entering into it.

(Personally I find first-person entry a special kind of claustrophobic horror)



To understand why entry is important, I'm going to describe one aspect of the psychology of writing (authoring).

Different kinds of tools force a writer to think differently. There are different writers and things influence them differently, but I want you to imagine the mindset difference between a writer who is on a computer and free to tab out and research, and who has spell checking, versus a writer with pen-and-paper (myself) where everything written is immutable. There are certain constraints presented in the latter where the mind must be in a different state if there is to be anything "good" that comes of it.

In both cases there are moments of "preparation". It is a decision point between living life like a civilian and arming ones self to become a writer. Perhaps it is a scheduled time for writing, or perhaps there are moments of insight which must be immediately acted upon.

There are some wonderful subtleties in this topic, but I'll stay constrained. Imagine a person who both writes pen-and-paper and must act upon inspiration. First, a pen is not just a pen. Some writers have a story behind a favorite pen, keep it a certain way, or some other nuance. That story "imbues" the wielder. Perhaps you have an art, and you can relate. The two primary kinds of pen are the "clicky" and the "cap". The clicky pen is immediate and it has a certain sound. It is so immediate that some people click it multiple times. The cap pen needs two hands, dexterity, and patience. Some writers who use a pen argue that the mindset the cap pen brings has more "weight" to it in some sense; that it makes the mindset of the writer more committed.

Entering a frame is like uncapping a pen. Let's imagine the heavy frame, because that size demands consideration.

Perhaps deployment is a garage in a town, or trucked in, or dropped from space; that doesn't matter. I don't want to talk about deployment, just entry.

The pilot is small against backdrop of a heavy. It is so large and of such substance that it's shadow is noticeably cool.

The pilot brings up an OP-AI, beginning the entry sequence. Its left foot steps back and it lowers to touch that knee to the ground. With one bent right leg it opens it's hands and stacks them like stairs. The pilot leaps from left hand to right hand, from knee to cockpit.

This description reveals two things. One is that it's involved just like uncapping a pen, and two is that it gives rise to countless variations. Interestingly, those could be gated behind achievements. I would politely demand that this not be yet another avenue for monetization. This sort of animation sequence would be expensive, I know, but if made conspicuously free, requiring involved gameplay, then it builds on the "uncapping" feeling. It becomes a connection between the player through the pilot into the frame then the game.

As soon as we got to this point, we had an absolute blast coming up with ideas for an "enter frame" emote. Importantly, this animation needs to either have a fast-entry mode or be entirely skippable. e.g. press X to enter fancy, hold X to enter quickly. Aborting a fancy entry might be tricky.

Ideas:

  • Your frame leans down, and the cockpit slides out for you to turn and sit in.
  • It squats and splays its hands like a ladder.
  • Your frame bends down to grab you and tosses you up, opening the cabin at the last moment.
  • It belly flops onto you, does a pushup, and stands.
Can you come up with anything? Are there other games with animations we should look at?

Exits can have all sorts of other animations. We didn't spitball this, do you have ideas?

----

There were other ideas, but I'm going to stagger threads weekly so as to not overwhelm.
 
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#2
I know this is a sci-fi game and all. But for the light frames witch are basically exoskeletons / exosuits I thought it would be funny to have semi-magical transformation. For females they would put on their light frames like magical girls and for males they would put on their light frames like magical warriors. lol

Everyone knows what magical girls are like. But for the people who don't know what the male version of that looks like here is an example.

lol
 

ChAzZ_NuT

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#3
Thanks for physicalizing those thoughts here Sy, I'm interested in seeing more of these discussions.

I see this thread as a way to dance around an idea, and for people to contribute perspectives. I'm very interested in learning about people's different thoughts, sometimes all it takes is one unique idea and then suddenly the devs have something which can really blossom.

Your pen analogy was really fun, I'd imagine it akin to when I pick up a hammer at work. It does something for me that really get's my mind into the problem-solving mentality. It's like a click.


I think it would be awesome if we could customize the actions of frames in the creation screen, and attach emotes that affect stuff like the "frame-entry" animation. I'd imagine it to be similar to those old WWE games where you could customize how your wrestler entered the arena or taunted an opponent.

You're adding a level of customization to your frame that can make a player feel very unique. These emotes could be picked up as rewards for achievements, or having defeated a particular Kai-ju, or for contributing to unlocking a world tier... etc It would class as a cosmetic.


 
Last edited:
Oct 16, 2019
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#4
All I've gotta say for this, is please, please, have some sort of 'skip animation' option, or at least a very quick animation as well.

These kinds of animations are great the first few times you see them. Then they start getting old, especially if you are constantly having to transition in/out for various things.

Then they start getting REALLY old, after the 100th time you've seen them, and a lot of people end up not wanting to use that particular system any longer.

I don't want to be *forced* to sit through an animation that takes long enough for me to go grab a snack from the room next door.
 

ChAzZ_NuT

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#5
All I've gotta say for this, is please, please, have some sort of 'skip animation' option, or at least a very quick animation as well.

These kinds of animations are great the first few times you see them. Then they start getting old, especially if you are constantly having to transition in/out for various things.

Then they start getting REALLY old, after the 100th time you've seen them, and a lot of people end up not wanting to use that particular system any longer.

I don't want to be *forced* to sit through an animation that takes long enough for me to go grab a snack from the room next door.
Great point Aeri!
 
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truekillerstar#4280

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#6
I just wanted to add that Titanfall dealt with contextual animations when it came to entering the mech. The OP-AI will pilot the MEK/As without pilot intervention so understanding the spatial requirement for this is crucial. Though, I would mind static (same everything, sort of like CODs takedowns) animations along as they were cool.


I think that having the animation time relative to the size to the mech would be acceptable.
 

ChAzZ_NuT

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#7
I just wanted to add that Titanfall dealt with contextual animations when it came to entering the mech. The OP-AI will pilot the MEK/As without pilot intervention so understanding the spatial requirement for this is crucial. Though, I would mind static (same everything, sort of like CODs takedowns) animations along as they were cool.


I think that having the animation time relative to the size to the mech would be acceptable.
As far as I can tell, your omniframe cannot move without it's pilot, so the entering animation would have to be static as the frame is not being piloted yet. Although on the same thought; the heavy omni-frame is almost like a mech because of its sheer size... so it'd be cool if the heavy-frame could for example; pick up the player and shove them in the cock-pit. Frame remaining in a static spot, and not moving away from its original location.

The concept ratio of animation-time:frame-size is an interesting one, initially I'd agree that the heavier frame should take longer to enter. But the question might be; Why should the size of frame affect how long an entering animation should take?
 

Pandagnome

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#8


Some could enter from the back or front and some may be from below
like a small elevator.

What i really like about this opening in the first 24 seconds is how it shows the pilot establishing a link wth the mech seeing the heart scan and the calibrations to initialise the sync between mech & the pilot as one.
 
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Sy

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#9
This is exactly what I was trying to articulate.

Those animations seem faster than they are because the camera is moving into the working position (over-shoulder) and the display is assembling itself. It's very well done.

Looking at it, it strikes me as kind of weird to enter from a front hatch and then turn. That's exactly what we would expect, but it seems inconvenient and somehow unnecessary. I know all the thrusters and such would need hinges to open up though..
 

ChAzZ_NuT

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#10
This is exactly what I was trying to articulate.

Those animations seem faster than they are because the camera is moving into the working position (over-shoulder) and the display is assembling itself. It's very well done.

Looking at it, it strikes me as kind of weird to enter from a front hatch and then turn. That's exactly what we would expect, but it seems inconvenient and somehow unnecessary. I know all the thrusters and such would need hinges to open up though..
Typically from the research, I've done, in games that have mechs or suits you can enter; The animation will typically last on average 3 seconds long, ranging anywhere from 2 - 7 seconds.

On the contrary, the flashy anime-style entrance of suit/frame, can last anywhere up to 15 seconds long.

So first we might ask;
What should depict the duration of the entry animations?


There are many factors that could shift how one answers this question, such as;
- Game/Artistic Style [Realism, Anime, Gundam, War... etc]
- The size of the omni-frame [Light, Medium, Heavy]
- The possibility of long and short animations, so as an example; The ability to skip the entry animation down from a full 10 seconds down to 3 seconds with the click of a button, for the sake of immediate combat.



Personally, I think it would be great if this kind of customization was available; That we could wear entry animations that clock up to 10/20 seconds long for the sakes of coolness, but can be swiftly shortened to 3 seconds with the click of a button... for the sakes of combat.
 
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Pandagnome

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#11
we could wear entry animations that clock up to 10/20 seconds long for the sakes of coolness, but can be swiftly shortened to 3 seconds with the click of a button... for the sakes of combat.
Then we can have best of both animation, also what if somewhere you could chose which you prefer the long animation and the other the short e.g.

Perhaps in the Mek profiles there is an option for each particular mek to give an option for Auto skip Entry Animation.
 
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Aug 14, 2016
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#12
One of the things a lot of people, including myself, asks at least once in their life is "why doesn't the enemy attack them while they are transforming?". And the answer some manga and anime give is because they couldn't within the given time frame. Yes, to us readers and watchers the transformations seem to take a long time. But in reality the transformations only last for like a second and some manga and anime even show a timer telling you that this person only toke like 0.1145s to fully transform in real time.

So having the options to show the animations or just transform instantly makes sense both ways.
For example. This is from the anime The Demon Girl Next Door.
 

Pandagnome

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One of the things a lot of people, including myself, asks at least once in their life is "why doesn't the enemy attack them while they are transforming?". And the answer some manga and anime give is because they couldn't within the given time frame. Yes, to us readers and watchers the transformations seem to take a long time. But in reality the transformations only last for like a second and some manga and anime even show a timer telling you that this person only toke like 0.1145s to fully transform in real time.

So having the options to show the animations or just transform instantly makes sense both ways.
For example. This is from the anime The Demon Girl Next Door.
If you are using the short or long animation entry do they both have a invulnerability time to attacks until animation is over?

Also with different kinds of animation or effects be available to customize your style of entry e.g.
In the video the focus is the heart shaped container when opened unlocks the effects / animation.

So this could be that different items or even things like pressing a button on a belt to swiping your hand over your visor to tapping your red shoes together to get a different kind of experience?

What if you could mix and match e.g.

- Item / device equipped even patting your pet for the specific animation entry
- Animation type e.g. Spinning dish of pasta with inverted neon effects.
- Sound type e.g. thunderstorm when the effects of pasta happens.
- Entry type e.g. power jumps onto the top of the Mek and flips backwards landing in the seat and mek closes up
 

ChAzZ_NuT

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#14
If you are using the short or long animation entry do they both have a invulnerability time to attacks until animation is over?

Also with different kinds of animation or effects be available to customize your style of entry e.g.
In the video the focus is the heart shaped container when opened unlocks the effects / animation.

So this could be that different items or even things like pressing a button on a belt to swiping your hand over your visor to tapping your red shoes together to get a different kind of experience?

What if you could mix and match e.g.

- Item / device equipped even patting your pet for the specific animation entry
- Animation type e.g. Spinning dish of pasta with inverted neon effects.
- Sound type e.g. thunderstorm when the effects of pasta happens.
- Entry type e.g. power jumps onto the top of the Mek and flips backwards landing in the seat and mek closes up
These are some pretty interesting expansions on the initial concept, nice ideas Panda!
 
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#15
If you are using the short or long animation entry do they both have a invulnerability time to attacks until animation is over?

Also with different kinds of animation or effects be available to customize your style of entry e.g.
In the video the focus is the heart shaped container when opened unlocks the effects / animation.

So this could be that different items or even things like pressing a button on a belt to swiping your hand over your visor to tapping your red shoes together to get a different kind of experience?

What if you could mix and match e.g.

- Item / device equipped even patting your pet for the specific animation entry
- Animation type e.g. Spinning dish of pasta with inverted neon effects.
- Sound type e.g. thunderstorm when the effects of pasta happens.
- Entry type e.g. power jumps onto the top of the Mek and flips backwards landing in the seat and mek closes up
For one it is not really a heart shape in her transformation but a peach. As Momo is the peach themed character, but peaches do look like hearts to some people when held the right way or cut in half. This why in some cultures peaches are also a symbol of love. It is peach theme is made more clear when note that her friend is orange themed, the fruit not the color. And Momo's "evil" from is called Darkness Peach.

Anyway, because this is a sci-fi game I do picture them having things nanobots, holograms, and force fields and those things can be used to make cloths and armor. Although using holograms and force fields to make cloths and armor is not something you see much of in comics, anime, and games mostly do to a lot of people not knowing about things like solid light (making light itself into something solid). So things like nanobots is more common to most people and because they can take on any shape they can be anything you program them to be. For example Spider-Man's suit.

This is why before I used the term semi-magical transformations. Because I'm one of the people who believes in things like this. Arthur C. Clarke - “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”. And well because of that it wouldn't be hard to make some technology that give the same effects as magic. After all, think about you going back in time with some of the technology you have. Wouldn't something like a cellphone be looked at as some kind of magic rock to the people far in the past? Or a car as some kind horseless cart that moves on it's own? Or a robot a kind of living suit of armor or a living doll or golem made of metal? And given how this game takes place in far off future wouldn't some of their technology look like magic to some of people living now?

But yes, going by the type of technology used you can make any number of effects happen and have it all be believable. It might not all be necessary effects but people do things that not necessary all the time just because it is fun or is part of their sense of style.
 
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Pandagnome

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For one it is not really a heart shape in her transformation but a peach. As Momo is the peach themed character, but peaches do look like hearts to some people when held the right way or cut in half.
Ah thanks for explaining and correcting me on that, i guess it is a tasty food too!

These are some pretty interesting expansions on the initial concept, nice ideas Panda!
Thanks i think Em8er will be a super game with all our ideas carefully considered and those that can benefit the vision!
 
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#17
Ah thanks for explaining and correcting me on that, i guess it is a tasty food too!
Sorry, if it sounded like I was being rude with the whole peach and heart thing. That was not my intent. As I do enjoy symbolism and how different people view things. Some people see a heart and others a peach, but they still mean the same thing to both groups of people. Namely the idea of love and sometimes sex. And some anthropologists think that real the reason for this because that shape subconsciously reminds people of 3 different parts of the human body that is often sexualized, with 2 of 3 being optional going by what culture you are talking about as different cultures sexualize and fetishize different things. The two optional body parts they think that shape reminds people of are the butt and the breast, and the third body part is without question always sexualized is female reproductive anatomy. There is a reason why often times in games and other media that are from some cultures characters linked to the idea of peaches or even named peach (side note, names like Momo means peach) tend to be females who are loving and caring by nature. And going by the age group they are in also tend to larger than normal breast and/or hips, not overly large but noticeable. Or they wear cloths that tend to draw the towards the breast and/or hips, the outfit itself doesn't have to be sexy or formfitting as colors patterns and lines can still draw the eye to those parts of the body.

Lol, anthropology and things like symbolism run deep. Can you tell that I once did a paper on such things in college. Anyway, if can make custom transformations and stuff than I might see about making one of my other alts in this game too. Which is a female alt I theme around the idea of things like the earth mother archetype. But I only make her in games that give plays a lot of freedom is how they look and ones where you don't always have to fight to gain strength or progress through the game. And putting things hearts, peaches, other kid friendly symbolism linked to love and reproduction is how theme the character with out making her overly sexualized.
 

Pandagnome

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#18
Sorry, if it sounded like I was being rude with the whole peach and heart thing.
I did not think you were rude you just said what you thought that's good if i thought you were rude i'd probably say something about it :D


how different people view things. Some people see a heart and others a peach, but they still mean the same thing to both groups of people. Namely the idea of love and sometimes sex. And some anthropologists think that real the reason for this because that shape subconsciously reminds people of 3 different parts of the human body that is often sexualized, with 2 of 3 being optional going by what culture you are talking about as different cultures sexualize and fetishize different things.
That perspective is also valid, i did not think of that.

putting things hearts, peaches, other kid friendly symbolism linked to love and reproduction is how theme the character with out making her overly sexualized.
So it could be that if a male character waved a baguette around and the sound of a ritual heard from within the baguette. As the incantation markings appear on the baguette, then followed by a glowing aura that eventually becomes a longer baguette!

Either the character is:

1) A high ranking baguette Chef who is on a quest to save the world by feeding bread to those without food!

2) Excited by baguettes and likes waving it around because this one is excited by something and there is not enough space in the bag.

Either way its a funny thing and family friendly and can be perceived in several ways.