Nerf/buffing classes

[GreatKhan]

So I've always wondered why games go through periods with only a few classes/builds used by most players. While some are never used/deemed useless. Games usually end up nerfing/boosting in a patch sometimes killing classes all together. To lessen the load on balancing numbers manually why not just automate it.

What if there is an auto-balancer each week/month based on general player use.

Ex:
#CLASSES = number of classes
%play = % of time used by all players since last balancing act

%Change = ( ( (1-%PLAY)/(#CLASSES-1))-(1/#CLASSES))*100*scaling

Looks ugly.. (can change scaling down, just used 1, probably half would be better)



So 5 classes (even use would be 20%)
Type 1 used 50% so stats go -7.5%
Type 2 used 30% so stats go -2.5%
Type 3 used 10% so stats go +2.5%
Type 4 used 05% so stats go +3.75%
Type 5 used 05% so stats go +3.75%

Or if great unbalanced use
Type 1 used 100% stats go -20%
Type 2-5 used 0% stats go +5%

Or if balanced use already
Type 1-5 used 20% stats go +0%

Overall player damage changes 0%, just balances all the classes so no single class is overpowered or underpowered unless over or under used overall. Could do the same thing to abilities for each class (different formula).

 

[Pandagnome]

all this nerfs and smurfs and barfs are too much for me i hope it plays well and that all classes have their special strengths and weakness that way no one is superior and needs the backing of another and vice versa.

Just my thought

 

[Sik San]

What classes? You'll be tinkering on your own setups.

 

[GreatKhan]

all this nerfs and smurfs and barfs are too much for me i hope it plays well and that all classes have their special strengths and weakness that way no one is superior and needs the backing of another and vice versa.

Just my thought

So you don't believe games ever need to nerf/buff?

What classes? You'll be tinkering on your own setups.

That's why it was just an example, not sure what the end game is going to be like, just don't like overpowered/underpowered builds

 

[Mahdi]

This won't be about classes but builds with equipment. I hope to avoid OP situations like multi turret, 100% up time on HKM station + overload, auto regens that survived sitting in melding.

But as development continues and new content is added to the game like Em-8ER, you probably will see a top three strengthed meta in the game at all times. Balancing will be a chore at times but knowing the basics of this project, there will NEVER be the problem say...Dungeon Defenders 2 has always had.

 

[Terib.Shadow]

And the thing with meta is the meta isn't the best, it's just some of the most known builds that work well, in all of the games i've been that had meta, i've always managed something better than the meta.

Those who follow the meta already miss part of the game's fun, discovering what works and what doesn't.

 

[BunnyHunny]

That's why it was just an example, not sure what the end game is going to be like, just don't like overpowered/underpowered builds

Sorry to ask that, but how could anyone think that this is a good idea?

The existence of huge power differences between builds is the only way.
If there are no "overpowered" and "underpowered" builds, then there is no need to use the brain.
Any kind of technical skill becomes obsolete.

Abilities/Weapons (equipment pieces in general) should be combined in a way that they work well together, in order to make a setup effective.
If a player puts no thought what so ever in his setup and just combines random bullshit, the build SHOULD BE weak.

Auto nerving stuff, depending on how many people use it is a bad idea, because it does not have to have anything to do with how good the stuff is.
i.e. if noobs like a certain weapon that is not strong, but is very easy to use and has a very low skill cap, that weapon probably does not need a nerf.

It all depends on what kinds of builds are currently known and favored.

 

[BunnyHunny]

And the thing with meta is the meta isn't the best, it's just some of the most known builds that work well, in all of the games i've been that had meta, i've always managed something better than the meta.

Those who follow the meta already miss part of the game's fun, discovering what works and what doesn't.

Not sure what kind of meta you are talking about, but i guess i understand it differently than you do.
i.e. if the game's current meta is "max dps", then that is how people will set up their builds.

So in my understanding, "meta" does not refer to a specific build, but to a specific type of gameplay.
Therefore, a setup that is perfectly tailored to fit into the current meta IS (currently) the best.

If you mean "the most widely used setup isn't the best", that is most likely true in many cases.

 

[Nunaden]

Welp, what is there to balance if there is nothing to balance? we got 3 omniframe-archetypes and no classes, and how you want to balance the speciality of a class? e.g.: the light frame is able to dual wield melees, the medium can only use one melee and the heavy can use a shield, how do you want to balance that, or are you just going to cry: "LIGHT END HAVY OP LMFAO CUNT DEVS!11111!!!!!!111 I WNAT MA FUCKING MUNY BECK!!!!!"? (i had to smile while writing that, and i almost vomited xD)
the problem is: not every build is going to be a melee build and quite many wont even enter melee range until that fuck up.
(yeah, the example is kinda meh, but that also shows a part of the balance)

 

[Nunaden]

Not sure what kind of meta you are talking about, but i guess i understand it differently than you do.
i.e. if the game's current meta is "max dps", then that is how people will set up their builds.

So in my understanding, "meta" does not refer to a specific build, but to a specific type of gameplay.
Therefore, a setup that is perfectly tailored to fit into the current meta IS (currently) the best.

If you mean "the most widely used setup isn't the best", that is most likely true in many cases.

Meta is often a pool of often used stuff that is in the state it is pretty strong and will dominate the field.
lets take robocraft as example: the meta was/is small chain shredders cuz they got a huge damage while being able to placed often with a low CPU usage, they are quite hard to degun, at the expense of a bit RoF and HP.
The meta in RC was once drones cuz they were uncountered, neither SMGs nor Plasmas were able to fight them effectively, then they tried to kill them pretty hard, AA weapons, auto-aim weapons, nerf of the building material that was used for the drones, removing the autotarget of healers, and after all that stuff drones are still going, even though at the bottom of the meta.

 

[BunnyHunny]

Meta is often a pool of often used stuff that is in the state it is pretty strong and will dominate the field.

I just learned that meta means most efficient technique available.
Therefore, sticking to the meta would ALWAYS be the best.

I guess what you were talking about is "most widely used setup by plebs".

 

[GreatKhan]

Balancing will be a chore at times but knowing the basics of this project, there will NEVER be the problem say...Dungeon Defenders 2 has always had.

I just don't want it like firefall eventually came to where a build like the recluse would last forever and then become nerfed to worthless.

The existence of huge power differences between builds is the only way.
If there are no "overpowered" and "underpowered" builds, then there is no need to use the brain.
Any kind of technical skill becomes becomes obsolete.

This would slowly create overpowered and underpowered builds, making unthought of builds stronger. Technical skills running around as the same build because it's "overpowered" seems lame.

Abilities/Weapons (equipment pieces in general) should be combined in a way that they work well together, in order to make a setup effective.
If a player puts no thought what so ever in his setup and just combines random bullshit, the build SHOULD BE weak.

Overused builds should be weak, #diversity in builds, #all abilities matter

the problem is: not every build is going to be a melee build and quite many wont even enter melee range until that fuck up.
(yeah, the example is kinda meh, but that also shows a part of the balance)

Imagine it more as a potency module changing the dps or stats in that way, maintaining the difference in the classes (dps/healing/shielding or whatnot)

 

[Torgue_Joey]

ACCORDING TO THAT CALCULATION. I'LL BE OP FOREVER, 'CUZ I'M THE ONLY SUCKER USING THE "TORGUE CLASS".

HELL YEAH, I'M F*CKING UNIQUE.

 

[Nunaden]

ACCORDING TO THAT CALCULATION. I'LL BE OP FOREVER, 'CUZ I'M THE ONLY SUCKER USING THE "TORGUE CLASS".

HELL YEAH, I'M F*CKING UNIQUE.

hm.. ill try to copy that xD
neh, ill Go with a "H4RDSTR1k3" build lol Soloing every shit i see, all i need is heal, dmg reduction and enough dmg output

 

[Pandagnome]

So you don't believe games ever need to nerf/buff?

hmmm they might do but can't really tell yet since we have nothing to test and see i wasn't too sure on the automated balancer
how reliable would it be?

who am i to say i am not that technical... just my view

 

[BunnyHunny]

Overused builds should be weak, #diversity in builds, #all abilities matter

Yeah... this is really bad.

If you want skilled players to keep good builds secret, in order to keep the plebs using their bad builds, that is exactly how to make it happen.

By the way, just taking FireFall as an example, over 90% of the players (while quite often having similar builds to each other) had nothing even remotely close to "the op build" and that was not for reasons like not having access to the required stuff.

I made the top build for Rhino and Raptor in 1.3 and the top builds for FC, Recluse, Rhino, Dragonfly, Bastion (yes even that shit), Raptor and Tron in 1.6-1.7.
You can try to argue that (if you chose to, please private chat), but i am pretty sure that there was no way to make any of these frames any more effective.
In over 2 years, i saw exactly 2 other people using one of these builds (or one of comparable effectiveness) by figuring it out all alone.

The point being: people will make builds and some builds might become quite popular, but when it comes to games that give you as many options as FireFall (and hopefully Ember), those popular ones are usually far from being the best.

Even if it is not as extreme as it was in FireFall, what you suggest would fuck over the majority of the player base and work against the idea of sharing setups and ideas with other people.

I just don't want it like firefall eventually came to where a build like the recluse would last forever and then become nerfed to worthless.

If you are talking about Recluse after 1.3...
Since the Recluse's altfire got removed, i would really hope that the "build", which basically only consisted of spamming the alt fire, would become worthless.

All frames got changed, all frames required new builds.
Most of them seem weak to the masses, because people lack the understanding on how to use the "new" tools.

The Recluse is now probably the strongest it ever was and is one of the most broken frames since 1.6.
If you really are talking about 1.6+, you just supported my point. If the most widely used builds would get nerved, that would not hit the "too good" builds, but the most simple ones.
And even if the strongest builds would get nerved (for what ever reason) it would still be the masses that suffer, because the top players would just create a new setup that uses the currently available stuff most effectively, while most people would have no idea what to do.

Here is what the Recluse can do now:
>>strong enough to solo the gas part in DoD, with no elite ranks, no weapon and with no modules (that is how i tested the base of the build for the first time)
>>enough life leech to be permanently invincible (unless you get 1 shot)
>>can permanently buff entire platoons with that life leech as well
>>combination of perks, weapons and abilities allows continuous 50-60% bonus damage for weapons and abilities
>>with high ER, abilities can almost be spammed like alt fire could (pretty much independent of the setup), not that it would be necessary in any situation

Most people think that the Recluse got nerfed, because their setups are bad.
They are not capable of working with the tools that are given to them, because all they did for a long time is spamming alt-fire aoe, which required neither a thought through setup, nor any understanding of anything, nor any skill.

 

[BunnyHunny]

that all classes have their special strengths and weakness

This is the point of different classes.

that way no one is superior

Forced "equality" is bad.

[that way no one] needs the backing of another and vice versa.

Players SHOULD need to support each other.
This is one of the main arguments for multiplayer PvE games.

 

[Pandagnome]

This is the point of different classes.


Forced "equality" is bad.


Players SHOULD need to support each other.
This is one of the main arguments for multiplayer PvE games.

I meant for the last one needs the backing of the others because its a team game

This makes sense so if all is equal then it wouldn't hold much value for that class right?

Would that lead on to each class having different strengths and weakness and play style to compliment each other.

 

[Rocket]

The problem with auto balance by player usage is the issue of arch-type favorites. Even without classes, they will still exist in frames. As will favored weapon types. Most people don't want their favorite weapon type balanced downwards just because others like the arch-type too.

I ran my Arsenal for sprint speed, and my Bastion for air time. I favored different weapons and powers for their effectiveness if specific situations according to the chosen frames role and made primary/secondary weapon types compliment. I'll likely build different frames in Em-8ER to suit similar roles and factor certain attributes and equipped gear in a similar way.

There should never be auto balance for anything gaming, except for auto-balancing opposing teams Quake Team Fortress style. Getting rolled or rolling another team was never fun. Any balance changes made need to be well thought out and made with careful consideration.

 

[NoahDVS]

The only way I could see some kind of auto balancing working out is if waaaaay too much effort was spent to get it working by using a neural network or something. Lots of data would need to be collected about players and some players may not be ok with that.