Keeping the science in sci-fi

[Omnires]

This thread is just about finding and talking about real world science and theories that would help explain some of the fantastical elements either in the game play and/or lore of the game. Yes, this is a just a game just for fun. But the keyword to any good science fiction story or game is the science and logic that universe is based on.

Do to the nature of a topic like this I feel we will be jumping around different subjects a lot. But that doesn't matter as the goal is to give reasonable and plausible answers to things in order to make the world feel more believable. Nothing breaks the immersion of a good sci-fi story faster and harder than them getting the science completely wrong.

So I'll get us started.
In some MMOs they have what is called a telegraph system, where enemies and maybe even players so a pattern of where their abilities or skills will hit in before they use them. Giving the players a cue to where to dodge attacks or to get in range of a support. This kind of game play mechanic can be easily explained in with science in a number of different ways. But simple and easy way to explain it is just to say each player has a personal analytical engine that takes in large amounts od data from its surroundings makes a predictive mode of that is most likely to happen next based on that data.

Think of how people try to predict the weather. The more data they have the more accuracy they can put into their predictive models of what is most likely to happen over the next few hours or days. It is the same idea but rather than trying to predict the weather you are trying to predict the next few actions a person or animal is likely to make.

 

[TankHunter678]

Telegraphs are needed in a tab target MMO that tries to force players to stand still to "cast" to both give the boss a shot at actually hitting people and let those casters who are stuck in place upwards of 3 seconds an opportunity to try to evade without being screwed over by their design.

In this game movement will be king, and we can jump jet up into the sky. I am sure if we get an afterburner type skill it will be heavily used for dodging. We will not need a telegraph to tell us the boss creature is going to puke here, we will simply boost away from where its model is turning.

 

[Omnires]

But that is where I disagree. Because then you can have players and bosses using things like homing missiles and scatter bombs to try and hit players. The analytical engine will then tell you the most likely path the attacks will take so you know when to dodge. It would also mean that with enough data and enough warning you could even avoid shotgun blast by going through the gaps in between the downs.

So the that means bosses and even groups of normal enemies can make a lot more attacks random attacks patterns that make you think you are in the 3d bullet hell shooter game.

 

[Ronyn]

So I'll get us started.
In some MMOs they have what is called a telegraph system, where enemies and maybe even players so a pattern of where their abilities or skills will hit in before they use them. Giving the players a cue to where to dodge attacks or to get in range of a support. This kind of game play mechanic can be easily explained in with science in a number of different ways. But simple and easy way to explain it is just to say each player has a personal analytical engine that takes in large amounts od data from its surroundings makes a predictive mode of that is most likely to happen next based on that data.

Think of how people try to predict the weather. The more data they have the more accuracy they can put into their predictive models of what is most likely to happen over the next few hours or days. It is the same idea but rather than trying to predict the weather you are trying to predict the next few actions a person or animal is likely to make.

Telegraphs are needed in a tab target MMO that tries to force players to...

This is an interesting part of the topic.
A constant, "red cone" based telegraph system in the vein of wildstar's would probably be out of place in a game like Ember.
But more subtle or organic Telegraph-esque effect have been used in many genres in many forms.
Some shooters have a beam shown in the direction of where a powerful shot will go. Like gears of war's One Shot weapon for example. Some melee action games have the enemies do a specific stance or flash before sending out an attack. Like most of the bosses in devil may cry series for example.

So there may be something worth examining in the idea here....as long as we look at the many different expressions it could take.

 

[TankHunter678]

And Homing missiles are restricted by their ability to turn. One good afterburner puts you beyond its turning radius where it can plow into the ground or you can just go behind a rock tower so the missile hits the rock instead of you. If it throws out scatter bombs people can just get into the air to avoid, go behind a rock tower, or go backwards away from the boss.

You also need to remember that we cannot just turn this into a bullet hell game, not everyone has the reaction speed for it and too much visual clutter will result in confusion. There is a reason bullet hell games are in general 2d or 2.5d games.

 

[Bl4ckhunter]

i'd agree to the fact that in general that animations are enough, some things need a telegraph of sort thought specially you can't just have invisible aoe novas of doom, snipers or instakill attacks for example. i still remember when juggernauts could bomb you from 500+ meters away and from behind a mountain and it wasn't fun, being killed out of the blue never is

 

[Omnires]

This is an interesting part of the topic.
A constant, "red cone" based telegraph system in the vein of wildstar's would probably be out of place in a game like Ember.
But more subtle or organic Telegraph-esque effect have been used in many genres in many forms.
Some shooters have a beam shown in the direction of where a powerful shot will go. Like gears of war's One Shot weapon for example. Some melee action games have the enemies do a specific stance or flash before sending out an attack. Like most of the bosses in devil may cry series for example.

So there may be something worth examining in the idea here....as long as we look at the many different expressions it could take.

Yes. The kind of HUD I'm thinking of is more like the HUDs we have now in fighter jets and the like. Where computer tracks the movement of objects and overlays the most likely path it will take. The more data it has on the object and the surroundings the better the predictive models the computer can make about when and where the object will go or hit. This system is how aim assist in real life fight jets and tanks works. This is also how the things like anti-missile systems work to help you aim at and shot down missiles before they hit. In real life it is often shown as a line on the screen showing you the path it is taking and circle at the end of the line telling you this where you need to aim to intercept the target.

Hmm... it would be cool if we are able to do things like shoot a bullet out of the air with another bullet as a way to block the shot rather than having to dodge it. Which is something that is totally possible with systems like this and fast enough reflexes.

 

[Omnires]

And Homing missiles are restricted by their ability to turn. One good afterburner puts you beyond its turning radius where it can plow into the ground or you can just go behind a rock tower so the missile hits the rock instead of you. If it throws out scatter bombs people can just get into the air to avoid, go behind a rock tower, or go backwards away from the boss.

You also need to remember that we cannot just turn this into a bullet hell game, not everyone has the reaction speed for it and too much visual clutter will result in confusion. There is a reason bullet hell games are in general 2d or 2.5d games.

True, but you'll not always know when an attack is coming. For example, in real life we have sniper rifles that fire shots faster than the speed of sound, so unless you see the muzzle of the gun at the time was being fired you have no warning.

Plus you have to keep in mind that most anti-aircraft armaments use proximity sensors in them, so will explode even without a direct hit as long as you are within the blast radius of the warhead. This is way even modern fighter jets can't just rely on pure speed and agility to avoid attacks anymore. Even more so if the enemy is using predictive algorithms in their targeting systems to guess the most likely path you'll take. Even if you try to turn, break, and/or afterburn to avoid an attack you'll have to follow the laws of physics which will limit how fast and shape you could make changes to directions and momentum at such speeds. In the end, it makes fast moving targets much easier to hit because the faster they move the more they are limiting their own maneuverability.

After all, everyone knows that when fighting fast moving targets you don't aim at where they are at, but where they are mostly likely to be in next second or two.

 

[Vladplaya]

You gotta be kidding me. You want a visual telegraph system in skill based shooter game?

Here is a scientific tip for you @Omnires: Use your eyeballs to see where you think enemy will hit based on its pattern of fighting and animations, then move out of the way accordingly.

No telegraphing UI is needed.

 

[Omnires]

You gotta be kidding me. You want a visual telegraph system in skill based shooter game?

Here is a scientific tip for you @Omnires: Use your eyeballs to see where you think enemy will hit based on its pattern of fighting and animations, then move out of the way accordingly.

No telegraphing UI is needed.

Ok, 3 things.
1) If you read what I said you'll know I was using the telegraph system in games as an example of how real science can be used to explain how different game play mechanics could work. Not once have I says that this is something that needs to be in the game and only kept talking about it because it is a valid debate topic that just can't be dismissed because of personal opinions. And for the record my personal opinion about telegraph systems are neutral at best, as my mean focus is on does it make sense and what does to the immersion of the game it is in. And in sci-fi games having different things in the lore and mechanics being rooted in real science just helps with the immersion of the game.

2) We don't know much about the enemies or how the combat system in game will work. For all we know the enemy A.I. can RNG to pick what ability to use next meaning no enemies will have attack patterns. And there is no guarantee that enemies in the game will have tells (the glowing, changing stances, and other things to let you know what enemy is going to do next. And as Ronyn pointed out before those things are also called telegraphs.) so you might not know what attacks the enemies are going to do next. This is not counting enemies that rely on stealth and ambushes as part of their tactics. So until we know more about things like the enemy A.I. and combat mechanics this remains a valid topic of debate.

3) This is a sci-fi game based in the future. If real life soldiers can have targeting computers in their combat vehicles to help track both vehicles and projectiles both for defensive and offensive reasons. There is no reason why would not also be in things like mecha and spaceships designed for combat, which would have things like super computers and A.I. in them. As pointed out because all skill based games have telegraphs in them, it just a matter of what kind of telegraphs are being used. And when comes to futuristic sci-fi military combat vehicles and mecha, some of the more immersive games do take into account that they will have targeting systems in them to help the pilots better aim at target and warn of incoming fire. They just as skill based as any other action game and FPS, it just those game gives the players more info about their surrounding to work with. Making tactics and strategies more important than randomly running around using spray-and-pray, as it is possible for others to dodge all your shots or even shoot down your shots before they get to them.

 

[Verterdegete]

Now that we're talking about science and aiming...

Can we have the Smart Pistol?

 

[phoenix]

Ok, 3 things.
1) If you read what I said you'll know I was using the telegraph system in games as an example of how real science can be used to explain how different game play mechanics could work. Not once have I says that this is something that needs to be in the game and only kept talking about it because it is a valid debate topic that just can't be dismissed because of personal opinions. And for the record my personal opinion about telegraph systems are neutral at best, as my mean focus is on does it make sense and what does to the immersion of the game it is in. And in sci-fi games having different things in the lore and mechanics being rooted in real science just helps with the immersion of the game.

2) We don't know much about the enemies or how the combat system in game will work. For all we know the enemy A.I. can RNG to pick what ability to use next meaning no enemies will have attack patterns. And there is no guarantee that enemies in the game will have tells (the glowing, changing stances, and other things to let you know what enemy is going to do next. And as Ronyn pointed out before those things are also called telegraphs.) so you might not know what attacks the enemies are going to do next. This is not counting enemies that rely on stealth and ambushes as part of their tactics. So until we know more about things like the enemy A.I. and combat mechanics this remains a valid topic of debate.

3) This is a sci-fi game based in the future. If real life soldiers can have targeting computers in their combat vehicles to help track both vehicles and projectiles both for defensive and offensive reasons. There is no reason why would not also be in things like mecha and spaceships designed for combat, which would have things like super computers and A.I. in them. As pointed out because all skill based games have telegraphs in them, it just a matter of what kind of telegraphs are being used. And when comes to futuristic sci-fi military combat vehicles and mecha, some of the more immersive games do take into account that they will have targeting systems in them to help the pilots better aim at target and warn of incoming fire. They just as skill based as any other action game and FPS, it just those game gives the players more info about their surrounding to work with. Making tactics and strategies more important than randomly running around using spray-and-pray, as it is possible for others to dodge all your shots or even shoot down your shots before they get to them.

Such beautiful arguments and speech bravo.

Having these targeting computers would be an awesome feature that would add much to the feel and esthetic of the game. As long as it doesn't break the game, the feel or the challenge then it's alright by me.

 

[phoenix]

We had path prediction on the chosen AI. You could easily beat it by moving left and right by 1m and enemies would shoot 3m to the left/right of you.

Ember should implement advanced player path prediction algorithms and not only send it's current position to the server but also the player prediction to the AI server for faster response and to offload the AI server a bit.

 

[TankHunter678]

Having these targeting computers would be an awesome feature that would add much to the feel and esthetic of the game. As long as it doesn't break the game, the feel or the challenge then it's alright by me.

We should avoid auto-aiming functions on player weapons as much as possible. As that removes skill, as well as more then a healthy dose of challenge. Such functions also wind up becoming the go to for 90% of the people out there as they would rather be lazy then learn to aim.

If I got a rocket launcher where I can hold a button down, sweep it across a pack of enemies to lock on to 5 of them, then release the button to fire all 5 missiles that will seek out the locked targets and blow them up then that really is just what a lot of people (including me) will exclusively use. Unless the game forces the use of other weapons.

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

We should avoid auto-aiming functions on player weapons as much as possible. As that removes skill, as well as more then a healthy dose of challenge. Such functions also wind up becoming the go to for 90% of the people out there as they would rather be lazy then learn to aim.

yep. Like the stupidity of Fallout 4's targeting system.
You could free aim in real time but if you used Fallout's targeting system, time stopped... which made combat easier in that game. And in many cases, the closer you were to a target, the better your chances are to hit.
Why take your time to aim when you can have the computer do everything for you?

Auto aim is just dumb especially for a game that is supposed to be about skill.

 

[Nunaden]

We should avoid auto-aiming functions on player weapons as much as possible. As that removes skill, as well as more then a healthy dose of challenge. Such functions also wind up becoming the go to for 90% of the people out there as they would rather be lazy then learn to aim.

If I got a rocket launcher where I can hold a button down, sweep it across a pack of enemies to lock on to 5 of them, then release the button to fire all 5 missiles that will seek out the locked targets and blow them up then that really is just what a lot of people (including me) will exclusively use. Unless the game forces the use of other weapons.

we could solve the "Lock, fire, kill" the same way it was solved in Sanctum. the REX of r Sweet (Sanctum 2, it is her main weapon, the rex existed already in Sanctum, but its nit really teh same ^^) could lock onto 3 targets (mag count) and would shoot 3 projectiles that split up into - meh perhaps 20 per projectile(?) - and crushed down near the enemies. The small projectiles didn't really deal much dmg and didn't hit every time. It also needed some time till the projectile exploded and the small just flew away from the explosion like debris, it was pretty neat to spread the burning dmg effect of her weapons, but pretty bad for everything else.

 

[TankHunter678]

we could solve the "Lock, fire, kill" the same way it was solved in Sanctum. the REX of r Sweet (Sanctum 2, it is her main weapon, the rex existed already in Sanctum, but its nit really teh same ^^) could lock onto 3 targets (mag count) and would shoot 3 projectiles that split up into - meh perhaps 20 per projectile(?) - and crushed down near the enemies. The small projectiles didn't really deal much dmg and didn't hit every time. It also needed some time till the projectile exploded and the small just flew away from the explosion like debris, it was pretty neat to spread the burning dmg effect of her weapons, but pretty bad for everything else.

That was mainly to get around the main weakness of AoE weapons in that game: Enemies that were immune to all damage that does not directly hit their weakspot.

Especially those enemies with what amounted to a big glowing ass for a weakspot as their head that required a direct hit even inflict damage. Lock on was needed to rain down homing rockets from above to even hurt the things in the first place with the REX. Cause if the REX rocket clipped the body the shot was wasted. Did not matter if the weakspot was in the AoE all the damage was inflicted on the invulnerable body armor.

It was also needed to help deal with fast small air enemies that were difficult to score a direct hit on.

 

[MattHunX]

This is an interesting part of the topic.
A constant, "red cone" based telegraph system in the vein of wildstar's would probably be out of place in a game like Ember.
But more subtle or organic Telegraph-esque effect have been used in many genres in many forms.
Some shooters have a beam shown in the direction of where a powerful shot will go. Like gears of war's One Shot weapon for example. Some melee action games have the enemies do a specific stance or flash before sending out an attack. Like most of the bosses in devil may cry series for example.

So there may be something worth examining in the idea here....as long as we look at the many different expressions it could take.

That sounds like a bit of hand-holding, though.

The flash, anyway. Of course animation, wind-ups, charging of attacks can telegraph the enemy's intention, but it shouldn't be too obvious, like a cone or highlighting of the ground.

e.g.: With Baneclaw, in Firefall, the entire ground lights up where the spikes would erupt from the ground. An area-attack and its effect could be replaced with cracks in the ground, as it splits apart. If the attack comes from above, the player should pay attention to perhaps shadows, or just look skyward to try and predict where an attack or stuff/projectiles thrown at the player would hit.

Telegraphing of attacks should be limited to effects within the game's world and the environment, not something obvious like highlights and flashes that are clearly an immersion-breaking, fourth-wall breaking game mechanic.

 

[Demigan]

This is an interesting part of the topic.
A constant, "red cone" based telegraph system in the vein of wildstar's would probably be out of place in a game like Ember.
But more subtle or organic Telegraph-esque effect have been used in many genres in many forms.
Some shooters have a beam shown in the direction of where a powerful shot will go. Like gears of war's One Shot weapon for example. Some melee action games have the enemies do a specific stance or flash before sending out an attack. Like most of the bosses in devil may cry series for example.

So there may be something worth examining in the idea here....as long as we look at the many different expressions it could take.

I see 3 categories for this. Visual cue's, sound cue's and a mixture of both. Firefall used a mixture for it's attacks that the player couldn't anticipate or dodge because for instance a sniper might not be readily visible, for those snipers that were visible it still had a charge-up glow around the weapon.

For Ember a mixture could depend on the weapon. To prevent every enemy doing any powerranger stances before an attack you could simply use enhanced acoustics. The omniframe enhances the specific sounds of certain weapons to help identify the direction, type of weapon and potential dodging maneuvers. You can make the weapon emit louder ("enhanced") sounds or for weapons that don't charge-up you can also make the projectiles emit louder sounds so the player can anticipate on them.

For everything that doesn't have the power to practically insta-kill your character, I would think that a simple "if nasty end is aimed at you, you're in trouble" would suffice.

3) This is a sci-fi game based in the future. If real life soldiers can have targeting computers in their combat vehicles to help track both vehicles and projectiles both for defensive and offensive reasons. snip

I really hope that there's some type of anomalous material or something available. Otherwise it would be as easy as "sniff out potential targets, shoot them from orbit once they turn agressive".
In Firefall for instance the crystite allowed for all the strange equipment and goodies, and allowed for a semi-plausible reason why these battleframes powered by the equivalent of a fusion reactor could be damaged in any way by wildlife such as Arachs and devolved half-dinosaurs. If you added in crystite mutations that gave them unnatural strength and protection it would be possible.

Ember needs something similar. There's no single way that anything would even remotely be in danger from the local wildlife if it can't be enhanced in any way. It would be like thinking a duck could harm a knight in full-plate. There would even be easier methods, such as hormonal warfare to pacify the local wildlife or using poison gasses to simply knock-out or kill anything that attempts to attack the players.

Maybe here's one explanation: There's a ton of terraformed planets everywhere, even though the actual count of planets with life on them isn't that high in real-life. There's around 13 (if I remember it right from the Crixa lore) human factions that spread out over the galaxy and mostly developed in isolation from each other until FTL warpgates were invented. These humans might have been throwing around specialized terraforming seeds into planets to start the terraforming process long before the first human settlers arrive. As the planet is terraformed, the seed will release a new wave of specialized creatures and plantlife to generate the right gasses and materials and complete each terraforming stage.
The type of terraforming seed determines the type of terraformation process that's going on, and determines the biome's that form. Planets can have been hit by multiple types of seed (intentionally or not) and offer different biome's on the planet.
But that animal life needs to have been engineered and capable of surviving the incredibly harsh environments (especially the one's that start on the almost barren planet). They can have special gene's that can accelerate evolution in specific directions to better adapt to the planet and it's environments. This offers us the escape hatch as to why these creatures are so dangerous and strong. They are closer to biological machines than actual creatures, and can potentially use hypermodern types of armor, mono-molecular structures, special electricity&chemical production and other things that are build within their bodies that lend them the immense power and special abilities required to actually fight with the human terraformers that follow.
The aggression of the wildlife can be a result of a requirement to survive as the planet is terraformed, or a mistake in the seed that wasn't discovered until the first planets with these seeds started to be colonized, or a deliberate tempering by a rival faction to sap manpower and resources while slowing down the colonization.

 

[MattHunX]

We should avoid auto-aiming functions on player weapons as much as possible. As that removes skill, as well as more then a healthy dose of challenge. Such functions also wind up becoming the go to for 90% of the people out there as they would rather be lazy then learn to aim.

If I got a rocket launcher where I can hold a button down, sweep it across a pack of enemies to lock on to 5 of them, then release the button to fire all 5 missiles that will seek out the locked targets and blow them up then that really is just what a lot of people (including me) will exclusively use. Unless the game forces the use of other weapons.

Locking on and homing-attacks like that should have a limit, then, at least. A recharge period and some other limitation, so lazy players wouldn't just spam them.