Improving communication

[Sy]

I'm breaking this off into its own thread.

I'm really not impressed...

Every one of those points is spot on.

These are valid criticisms largely correct because of poor developer communication. People, like myself, don't feel the same way because of a lengthy and involved participation with the community. This contrast is a very big problem.

Delays have had a reasons, often because of developer hesitation that's met with community pressure for change. I do feel like the timeline is being stretched out, that the communication is friendly and constructive but like a delaying tactic and there's a complete lack of official statements derived from recent not-concrete loose decisions.

It's also a problem that what's produced is unimpressive and uninteresting, and the shilling is completely out of hand.

Many of these problems are known and are being improved.

In my opinion, the following things need to happen:

- Abandon Discord chats (live streams provide a face)
- Continue regular live streams (and improve them)
- Implement a Twitch bot for givaways
- Put those un-edited livestreams on YouTube. (on the same channel as everything else -- make it reveal the amount of regular effort that's going into it)
- Have devs take notes during a stream, and prepare an official video-statement before the next livestream. A video like that will also remind people of the next/upcoming livestream.
- Have devs write official written statements on a blog. Shifts in timeline, upcoming deadlines, changes of mind, etc. Note justifications. Trust me when I say "I got sick" is okay. A great example was the problem with performance and hair.
- Begin with several long documents with mission statements etc (each deserving of their own thread to discuss). These need to be made, and be perfect, since they would be copy-pasted into Kickstarters. In particular, I think it would be worthy to have a good document talking about who is involved with this project.

e.g.

When Nostalrius, the largest World of Warcraft pirate server, was taken down, it brought to light the value of going back to the origins and spirit of a game. Mark Kern, the original team lead for the "Vanilla WoW" that it mimiced, helped pitch the idea to Blizzard, and they are now releasing Classic World of Warcraft.

Like World of Warcraft's "Vanilla", there was a pre-release beta of Firefall which players still hold in high regard. Kern was the original lead during that time. Curious, he asked around and the community found him. This is the birth of the EM-8ER project, to make the spiritual successor of "the original Firefall".

Some of the original Firefall developers are involved, if only as advisers. In particular, the two developers responsible for its much-loved movement mechanics, are on board.

The voice actor for Aero was found. She's in. Bozz, bozz!

Coding for a private server is no small feat, and networking is a huge challenge for a game. One of Nostalrius' senior programmers has been hired as the lead network developer.

Several others have offered advice and some development work during their personal-time. Though they are known in the industry, they can't be named unless they can be hired away from their current jobs. If EM-8ER grows strong enough to secure them, it will breed even more success.

-

I think the real problem comes down to there not being regular official written statements.

The YouTube channel was supposed to turn into a sort of development vlog, but the good stuff has been coming out via live streams. This means that outsiders only see clumsy videos. Those passive observers from YouTube need to get regular and curated updates without having to dive deeper into the community.

 

[Pandagnome]

As frustrating as it may be those involved with creating the game have their own life to consider whilst dealing with obstacles they may face in this project.

I think what they are doing is very good for such as a small team compared to those with bigger budgets and backing.

Lets give them the time to blossom and bring the game we all deserve!

 

[Wyntyr]

There have been delays for sure and I for one expect more.

Why:

1. Small, part time team (only one full time), not geographically close to each other (IE different states and/or countries), and time zone challenges.
2. Only certain devs needed at certain points of the process and if not available, then that point has to be put on hold. For ex. Joe Solo was working the models at one time and that ended for "reasons" so someone else had to get up to speed to perform those duties.
3. Omniframe re-design due to Community feedback.
4. Omniframe re-work due to issues once placed in UE4.
5. Technical Issues such as team member(s) equipment failure/loss needing replacement(s).
6. Certain stock/purchased animations not up to Grummz's quality assessment so the team went ahead and started motion capture animations.
7. Terrain re-design from ice/lava to Firefall Coral Forest feel since being marketed as a FF successor.
8. Forum and Game Account coordination created for purchases (New Comer packs, Subscription, etc.), demo builds (Art, Terrain, etc.) verification and login.

These are the one's I recall and I'm sure I'm missing some. This doesn't take into account any issues within Team Em.8ER the Community is not privy to, and may never be privy to, due to "reasons".

8 for Em.8ER

 

[PIghead Elderberry]

The way I see it is that things are slower to come about than originally estimated because of some problems along the way (to be expected) but most importantly because way way way WAY more stuff is being done before the Kick Starter than originally planned.

I may be wrong, but I thought that the "original" goal was to simply have a tiny playable demo where we could fight a small Kaiju with our Thumper. Period. Done. Kick Starter time.

Now we are going to have way way way WAY more than that for Kick Starter.

Newbies who first see Em8ER in Kick Starter will be seeing a big section of the planet, terrain to run around in while fighting... tons and tons more stuff than the first idea.

Beyond that we have the writing going on, and the lore developed in parallel for those that are interested in that aspect.

I am perfectly happy with the current trajectory because of the above (that Kick Starter is delayed but will be HUGELY more than the first plan for it).

 

[Temp]

I'd rather they polish whatever they currently have instead of going out guns blazing. Over promising and spreading awareness will lead to Molyneux syndrome.

 

[Wyntyr]

I'd rather they polish whatever they currently have instead of going out guns blazing. Over promising and spreading awareness will lead to Molyneux syndrome.

I'm sure some spit and polish will go into the mock up for sure. With the builds going out to the Community there will be bug finds, art suggestions, etc that Team Em.8ER will be able to prioritize fixing prior to the Kick Starter Mock Up going live.

 

[dryter97#3856]

I personally like your project guy's. I feal it. Im myself part of development for some addon and plugins arround games and some time just creating a gameplay into a already finished game could take a years. So yea im not surprised this game could take 5 to 6 years to be completed.


What i know about releasing is bug some time are avoided when testing cause you lack of humanity dumbness when testing it. Like people screwing arround with mechanics is alway causing glitch and bug. Hahahaha.

Lets be honest i dont know since how many time you are working on it. Im following your project since a years and half. Im not buying or financing anything cause like a bunch of people im not feeling it. It doesn't mean i dont want to support.

I wish you luck in this project. Wishing your foundation stable than cyberpunk

 

[Djepetto]

As frustrating as it may be those involved with creating the game have their own life to consider whilst dealing with obstacles they may face in this project.

I think what they are doing is very good for such as a small team compared to those with bigger budgets and backing.

Lets give them the time to blossom and bring the game we all deserve!

What's frustrating is replies like this.
I'm sorry the math just doesn't add up.
Even working part time for the passed 7 years should output more content that is available. In 7 years of part time work there is nothing my, "GUY." And people like you keep commenting the same notion. What do you see that I'm not seeing? What am I missing? You can follow the trail on this web site a lone and see all the broken promises and empty space.
How much more time do they need to "blossom?" How many more broken promises?

 

[Djepetto]

There have been delays for sure and I for one expect more.

Why:

1. Small, part time team (only one full time), not geographically close to each other (IE different states and/or countries), and time zone challenges.
2. Only certain devs needed at certain points of the process and if not available, then that point has to be put on hold. For ex. Joe Solo was working the models at one time and that ended for "reasons" so someone else had to get up to speed to perform those duties.
3. Omniframe re-design due to Community feedback.
4. Omniframe re-work due to issues once placed in UE4.
5. Technical Issues such as team member(s) equipment failure/loss needing replacement(s).
6. Certain stock/purchased animations not up to Grummz's quality assessment so the team went ahead and started motion capture animations.
7. Terrain re-design from ice/lava to Firefall Coral Forest feel since being marketed as a FF successor.
8. Forum and Game Account coordination created for purchases (New Comer packs, Subscription, etc.), demo builds (Art, Terrain, etc.) verification and login.

These are the one's I recall and I'm sure I'm missing some. This doesn't take into account any issues within Team Em.8ER the Community is not privy to, and may never be privy to, due to "reasons".

8 for Em.8ER

and this has taken 7 years, part time? Doesn't add up. Do the math yourself.

 

[Pandagnome]

What's frustrating is replies like this.

Oops

I'm sorry the math just doesn't add up.
Even working part time for the passed 7 years should output more content that is available

As an example this little snail game could take around 2 years

I believe that with making a great Kick starter this would improve the odds to earn an Epic Mega grant!

You can follow the trail on this web site a lone and see all the broken promises and empty space.

The promise for the successor of Firefall is not broken that i know. We have to trust in their work &
you already know what kind of work that was produced from firefall.

I am not sure on the empty space, there will be empty space everywhere even in SPACE!

Do the math yourself.

You sure love maths o.o

 

[Sy]

and this has taken 7 years, part time? Doesn't add up. Do the math yourself.

I keep being impressed at how many people learned a new skill through covid.

If I knew to, I would have been learning the skills people are now being hired for.

 

[liandri]

Not sure of the point in necroing a thread from 3 years ago, but it does highlight two things for me.

a) it really is taking a lot longer than anyone initially expected. There was an expectation after M3 that Kickstarter wouldn't be far off. Maybe it would be good for the devs to, maybe at the end of the year, put together a comparison to show what we had, and where we are now. Show that the wait has resulted in increased quality and polish?
Might be a video idea for @Skube or @Remixthispurple since you guys have videos of old builds already? Maybe the devs can temporarily open up the servers for those, send out some demos you might have missed.

b) when a good portion of the community pulls together and points out an issue, concerns are heard rather than ignored. I don't believe that Crixa is sitting there counting their money thinking continuing at this pace will bring riches. They know people are upset.

I completely understand where you're coming from @Djepetto, and I agree. *5 years (*since M3 funded) is a long time and the current state of EM-8ER isn't where quite a few people think it should be. Excuses have been made and I wonder how far along the game would be if the Art Pass was never considered. On the flip, everything looks better with the Art Pass and, while content is beyond lacking (so much so there are only a handful of names in the demo anytime you open it, and they're all offline), giving harsh yet constructive feedback is the best way forward I feel.

That, and not giving any further funding to the project if you don't think anything will come from it.

 

[Sy]

Not sure of the point in necroing a thread from 3 years ago...

Because nothing has changed even slightly.

Maybe it would be good for the devs to, maybe at the end of the year, put together a comparison to show what we had, and where we are now. Show that the wait has resulted in increased quality and polish?

There's a roadmap now, except it relies on hiring so it'll be a lot more time.

Might be a video idea for @Skube or @Remixthispurple since you guys have videos of old builds already?

Maybe the devs can temporarily open up the servers for those, send out some demos you might have missed.

The downloads are still there and I think their servers are still running for anyone to make videos. They really wouldn't reflect well on the progress of the project though.

They know people are upset.

Do they? For example, the waifu problem has made the project a joke to a huge number of people. It has kept people from backing it, and driven early backers away. I went back through Discord logs and saw the sentiment from two years ago from the community and from the founder of our Discord server before he left.

In two years the perception could have been improved as easily as presenting mixed-gender skins. Sketches don't even take an afternoon of an artist's time, but that was never done.

 

[Wyntyr]

and this has taken 7 years, part time? Doesn't add up. Do the math yourself.

My post was from 2019 but it seems some folks have a hard time reading...

 

[Pandagnome]

There's a roadmap now, except it relies on hiring so it'll be a lot more time.

That depends how quickly they can find the right individuals & hire for the job.

The downloads are still there and I think their servers are still running for anyone to make videos. They really wouldn't reflect well on the progress of the project though.

I have to agree at this time.

Do they? For example, the waifu problem has made the project a joke to a huge number of people. It has kept people from backing it, and driven early backers away. I went back through Discord logs and saw the sentiment from two years ago from the community and from the founder of our Discord server before he left.

In two years the perception could have been improved as easily as presenting mixed-gender skins. Sketches don't even take an afternoon of an artist's time, but that was never done.

The mech vs kaiju was why i was interested in, then a long side the waifu, husbando and other stuff can be shown in what more is there in the game.

I would prefer non-human skins such as
- Cyborg/Robotic type skins
- Creature skins types non-fur/fur either non-patterns/patterns
- 2 tone skins that change in colour by amount of light/temperature e.g Resourse gathering of kinds of Photonic crystals cause active colour change which can vary customization with the right combination sets.

 

[liandri]

Stuck a TL;DR near the bottom.

Because nothing has changed even slightly.

If we're on topic with your original post and referring to Crixa's lack of communication, you have to consider recently. Skin flavour text aside, the Medium posts work to show dev progress without needing to spend the time making a video. If they keep that up, it'll work out. They just need to make sure the 37,000 forum / 11,000 Discord members all know about it.
Back in 2019, I'd agree because the CCs were useful for the snippets of info they contained, but it was a waste of time if you just wanted to know about the game. Not to mention the time investment, or the spur of the moment chats that never get recorded. I'd just wait for Faeryl's notes.
That's still part of the issue now, since there are 3-4 CCs missing from the YouTube, and the forum news releases aren't close to up to date. I've taken to downloading the VODs and watching in my own time.

There's a roadmap now, except it relies on hiring so it'll be a lot more time.

*also another round of funding~
July build (apparently) adds the male and female characters back in together. Important, and WAY overdue.
August is meant to add the light frame, make changes to Tsi-hu and Kneebiter, and add the personal THMPR.
You could say that LF requires a hard surface modeller, and the enemies require the new animator, but they've been worked on for a while without them.
Of course, they have to actually release those demos, so it's a wait and see.

The downloads are still there and I think their servers are still running for anyone to make videos. They really wouldn't reflect well on the progress of the project though.

I tried to go through on the old demos I have 8 months ago, most of them were down for me, aside from those that are local only.

Do they? For example, the waifu problem has made the project a joke to a huge number of people. It has kept people from backing it, and driven early backers away. I went back through Discord logs and saw the sentiment from two years ago from the community and from the founder of our Discord server before he left.

When one of the most active forum posts for a couple of months were people complaining, when it gets pointed out that your Discord is predominantly your own community team's activity, when a major backer absolutely fucksnaps... It's as worse as it has ever been. I think they know. At least, I really hope so.
I'm talking about recently, mostly. I messaged Grummz directly after impromptu chief chat about the concierge program and expressed my concerns about the project as a whole. He responded. And coincidentally, he was on the forum the same day. He started that Impromptu chat because people didn't "get" the program, and partly (I think) due to a Discord response from Maven.

In two years the perception could have been improved as easily as presenting mixed-gender skins. Sketches don't even take an afternoon of an artist's time, but that was never done.

Half the released skins in the monthly patron are female character skins. It would be nice, yes. Hell, I'd even find a omniframe colour selector wheel exciting at this point.

TL;DR~
-- No arguments from me. My strategy is waiting for July, then August, then either staying because they're making progress or bugger off because they couldn't meet their own deadlines. I'm not partaking in any further funding outside of Patron.

I would prefer non-human skins such as
- Cyborg/Robotic type skins

Any variance away from human female waifu skins would be great. They were already meant to be doing that and being more mech focused. Then suddenly, Annabelle is released. What a surprise.

 

[Pandagnome]

the following things need to happen:

- Abandon Discord chats (live streams provide a face)
- Continue regular live streams (and improve them)
- Implement a Twitch bot for givaways
- Put those un-edited livestreams on YouTube. (on the same channel as everything else -- make it reveal the amount of regular effort that's going into it)
- Have devs take notes during a stream, and prepare an official video-statement before the next livestream. A video like that will also remind people of the next/upcoming livestream.
- Have devs write official written statements on a blog. Shifts in timeline, upcoming deadlines, changes of mind, etc. Note justifications. Trust me when I say "I got sick" is okay. A great example was the problem with performance and hair.
- Begin with several long documents with mission statements etc (each deserving of their own thread to discuss). These need to be made, and be perfect, since they would be copy-pasted into Kickstarters. In particular, I think it would be worthy to have a good document talking about who is involved with this project.

Live streams would make it easier for the Devs to communicate with the community and not worry on the discord side. Improve on the ingame chat is also worth it when more happen to test/play upcoming updated demos.

That is a good move to get live streams not only on youtube, and other platforms they care to share in.

The Em8er medium should certainly be linked to Em8er forum to easily find.

For just live chats why not have one in the forum it could have a question appear after sometime to verfy your not a bot. If its to answer very specific question more like a help desk those live chat can state it is opened from a certain time range e.g. 10am - 4pm etc etc

All this can be in house under Em8er forum, people can still post videos / type on the specific topics and have their live chat in one place.

I don't know how difficult that is to do but i am sure if its done right it would make communication more manageable.

 

[Pandagnome]

Speaking of communications some form either vocal or symbol between players ingame e.g

In l4d2 they have vocalize where you can select a vocal command from saying things such as look or get out of here etc etc

Also if sounds are not as engaging to some then visually could be a symbol, such as a hazard sign to emoji's with a hand to say hi or just to get a players attention possibly.

Some of us may not be able to communicate so well with words due to language barriers to even impairments.

So having something like this could help encourage a wider player base feel at ease, to relay what they want more easier.

In an ideal world type to speech could be good in social scenes with different voice packs to select from some purchasable to others earned by rewards from the world.

Though this may be toggled on and off to mute if needed or changing volume control of the user's type to speech in that way reducing the conflict with others or being annoying.

 

[Dam13n]

Definitely agree with most of this. The no zero days is a good bite sized stopgap and for sure has an effect on the bleeding of potential interest but the audience is pretty small and feels more like the bare minimum. It is a good first step.

The older youtube video vlogs from grummz were overall pretty succesful. Mark is a good salesman and he should imo play into this more. Though maybe waiting for this, when there is more to show might be preferable.

A recent video I posted on YouTube about a basic movement exploit did rather well given my small subscriber numbers and the generic nature of the video. Showing that there is still a potential audience for it.

Everyone likes a good comeback story but overal there is quite a bit of goodwill the will need to be rebuild, to really grow the community again, imo.

 

[Dam13n]

From the content created side, there currently isn't enough cool and chaotic things to show. The gliding is pretty decent plus there are some fun, cool looking exploits with it (which for the moment im not sharing for obvious reasons XD) and you could make something with that but for the moment this is kinda where it ends.

No frantic combat that adds a wow factor where you could just make a compilation and it would pull in people inx to want to try it out for themselves.

So we wait....


Edit; I was in the process of making a gliding and exploit compilation but the end result was somewhat mid, especially given that nothing new could come up for several months and any momentum with it would probably be lost by that time.

If, let's say three months later, a video about crazy combat could follow, couple of months later a new dynamic event and an enemy.

Well then you could kinda keep that ball rolling. Now from our point of view, it is better to wait for a couple of large batches, that we can partially plan out a couple of regular content drops for a while, excluding fun exploits we might find along the way.