How many targets can be hit with one attack?

Aug 14, 2016
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#1
It is no secrets that I love to play as snipers and melees in games. But one of the things that annoys me in a lot of games is that attacks that should be able to pass through one target onto another doesn't. So this topic all about the penetration effect and/or follow through effect on given attacks.

After all, if I'm using a high powered anti-materiel rifle designed to fire holes in things like tanks and ships. Then when I fire at an enemy made of flash and bone not only should I hit them with my shot but also any poor soul who just happen be behind them in a line. Until the shot looses enough energy as to not be deadly anymore or it hits the ground. And the amount of bodies the shot can fire through goes by how much energy the shot is departing onto the target(s) as it travels.

The same goes for some types of melee weapons and attacks. After all, the only really limit to how many targets you can penetrate in one thrust of a spear is only limited by how powerful the attack was and how long the spear is. The seem with arching attacks using momentum when swings a blade. The only real limit on many things you can cut in haft with one swing is based on how powerful the swing is how large of an arc you are making as you swing.

Because in real life not all AOE attacks things like explosions. Some times it just a bullet passing through doors and walls to hit a target on the other side them or a person slapping someone but their hand keeps moving to hit also slap the person next to them too. Plus we are wearing things like power armor and using omniframes. How much potential energy and momentum can you build with just the size and mass of the weapon alone?
 

Pandagnome

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#2
one of the things that annoys me in a lot of games is that attacks that should be able to pass through one target onto another doesn't.
- Single target high concentrated focused beam can go far the longer the charge as an example
it could go through many depending on the 3 cycles how long the charge shot is held.

- single cycle charge = Standard super shot goes through up to 2 enemies with decent damage
- Double cycle charge = Hyper stryke shot goes through up to 4 enemies with high damage
- Triple cycle charge = Eliminator shot goes through 6+ and bypasses Armour very heavy damage

Going past triple cycle could end up damaging the gun by up to 50%

person slapping someone but their hand keeps moving to hit also slap the person next to them too
Fearsome slaps even those can daze and knock them off their feet!

Short Teleporting slaps makes for some sneaky enemies

What if enemy ragdolls can initially dmg other enemies for a small amount before vanishing would this cause any problems to the game?


There will be much to think about the enemy such as:

- How much Resistance type and %
- How much Armor type and %
- Can it adapt its Armor /resistance/shield?
- How much it has in Flesh and %
- How fast it is and chance of avoiding damage by movement even blocking %
- Does it have shields?
- Do the weak points change depending on the metamorphosis stages ?
- Enemy Ranks and experience those who are higher would have more intelligence and strategies used than lower ranks

How to counter with a weapon of the same type with weapon switch profiles

I'd love to be able to switch my weapon profile since i have that weapon the only difference is
what i have set for my profiles and the mods so i am able to switch from something that is more
suited to hitting mobs and then could switch to a more single target profile.

One thing i particularly like is having a fire mode that doesn't need you to keep pressing alot such as semi fire unless its dmg output is high. If the option to switch fire mods is there that would give us options in how we use our weapon from burst, semi to auto and even held charge shots

As an example if you had 1000 ammo
- Burst usually is 3 ammo but what if you could change the number of ammo to that weapon to 5 or even 10 depending on the ammo pool you have.

- For semi you could still have it semi but what if you could hold the button down so it still fires in semi firing mode than pressing it each time unless you want to.

- Auto and charged shots would be just held those are finger friendly
 
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liandri

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#3
high powered anti-materiel rifle designed to fire holes in things like tanks and ships
The Railjack from Planetside 2 had this problem. While one of the highest, perhaps the highest damage sniper rifles in the game, it took them 8 WHOLE YEARS for them to change it so it has unlimited penetration on infantry. Prior to that, I'm not sure if it ever did penetrate, and if it didn't, I never noticed anyone die from it.

Melee weapons hitting in arcs or lines, rather than shooting a single invisible projectile in front of you, is just how things should be. If you're being overrun by kneebiters, you'd be shredded trying to kill each one separately. Do you calculate the damage based on swing speed and reduce it with each enemy hit (for swings)? Do hammers deal an AOE? A robust melee system would be cool either way.

Balancing? Low caliber weapons would be great against unarmoured and unshielded targets. High caliber weapons penetrate armour but still have some trouble with shields. High caliber heavy omniframe weapons could annihilate armour and put load on shield systems, but can't sustain a high rate of fire. Bladed melee weapons glance off armour sometimes but pass through shields with minimal momentum loss. Piercing melee weapons penetrate armour, and can penetrate shields omniframe momentum is considered. Blunt melee weapons could deal extra damage based on armour value, and destabilise shields with a strong enough hit. Energy weapon generate more heat for the user, but deal extra damage to shields.
 
Aug 14, 2016
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#4
Fearsome slaps even those can daze and knock them off their feet!

Short Teleporting slaps makes for some sneaky enemies
I just used slapping as an example because it is the easiest AOE melee attack most people can do if their targets are lined up.

Also on the idea of different firing modes on guns. Given how this is an sci-fi game I would live to have guns that would transform based on their firing mode. A good example of this would be the Dominator from Psycho-Pass. Each stage of the gun's unlocking changes how it looks so it can focus more power onto a target. On it is lowest settings it is nonlethal but on the higher setting can destroy more and more things. I would show a clip of the gun transforming for the people who don't know what Psycho-Pass is. But then I remembered the guns rarely transformed without someone blowing up into a red mist of blood covering the area. So if you don't mind gore you can look up those sense for yourself.

The Railjack from Planetside 2 had this problem. While one of the highest, perhaps the highest damage sniper rifles in the game, it took them 8 WHOLE YEARS for them to change it so it has unlimited penetration on infantry. Prior to that, I'm not sure if it ever did penetrate, and if it didn't, I never noticed anyone die from it.

Melee weapons hitting in arcs or lines, rather than shooting a single invisible projectile in front of you, is just how things should be. If you're being overrun by kneebiters, you'd be shredded trying to kill each one separately. Do you calculate the damage based on swing speed and reduce it with each enemy hit (for swings)? Do hammers deal an AOE? A robust melee system would be cool either way.

Balancing? Low caliber weapons would be great against unarmoured and unshielded targets. High caliber weapons penetrate armour but still have some trouble with shields. High caliber heavy omniframe weapons could annihilate armour and put load on shield systems, but can't sustain a high rate of fire. Bladed melee weapons glance off armour sometimes but pass through shields with minimal momentum loss. Piercing melee weapons penetrate armour, and can penetrate shields omniframe momentum is considered. Blunt melee weapons could deal extra damage based on armour value, and destabilise shields with a strong enough hit. Energy weapon generate more heat for the user, but deal extra damage to shields.
I think taking into account some basic physics of how weapons work with a bit of anime logic for the rule of cool would be enough of a balance to combat system to make a lot of people happy. It would be like how some car racing games just let people buy cars and race them around for a lot of fun. But also there is a deep tuning and customization system in place for the people who know cars really work to play around with and change how the cars work. Even something as simple as just changing the type of tires on a car can change it's speed and handling. And those of us who know about weapons and combat work could make changes to weapons and armor / omniframes to make them do things that seem near impossible to others who don't understand it.

*Remembers the early days of FireFall of making suits as low mass as possible with as high energy as possible and servos made for movement speed to have frames in the recon class and medic class not only run faster than LGVs but also could keep up with the dropships on flat ground.*
 
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Pandagnome

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#5
Also on the idea of different firing modes on guns. Given how this is an sci-fi game I would live to have guns that would transform based on their firing mode.
Here is one its a toy version still looks very cool not as cool as the anime with all its effects and transformation still good for a toy.

The GCSF in Em8er and a transforming gun is perfect.

I wonder if the A.I of the MeK will directly voice the weapon modes/analyse or the weapon itself has different voice packs hmm.
 
Aug 14, 2016
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#6
Also on the related to firing modes things is ammo types. In most games guns tend to only fire 1 type of ammo only. But we all know that in real life changing the type of ammo you use changes what the gun can do. And in some of the more realistic use of guns in games you are freely able to change the type of ammo you use while in combat just by reloading the gun with a different type of ammo.

And given how this a sci-fi game with things like 3D printers and stuff. What is stopping you from having a 3D printer built into the game itself? And you would just put raw resources into the gun to make different types of ammo on the fly?

Granted that last part only came to me after a friend reminded me of things like the Magun (form Final Fantasy Unlimited) and other magical guns that changed what they did based on the ammo you put in them. Like making alchemy with a gun. Here is an example of the Magun firing to summon different beings to do things, different combinations of 3 different sand types (spoilers, the sand is really the lifeforce of different people who died in a crystalline from) would summon different things.


Now barring the whole summoning thing. Something like that could also be used for an special / super attack with some of the gun types. Where after the ability is ready you have to pick which combination of resources or ammo types to use for your next over powered shot. And you know that some people, myself included, would be looking for a combo to make our next shot into unblockable spear or a mini nuke or something. lol
 
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Pandagnome

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#7
Also on the related to firing modes things is ammo types. In most games guns tend to only fire 1 type of ammo only. But we all know that in real life changing the type of ammo you use changes what the gun can do. And in some of the more realistic use of guns in games you are freely able to change the type of ammo you use while in combat just by reloading the gun with a different type of ammo.

And given how this a sci-fi game with things like 3D printers and stuff. What is stopping you from having a 3D printer built into the game itself? And you would just put raw resources into the gun to make different types of ammo on the fly?

Granted that last part only came to me after a friend reminded me of things like the Magun (form Final Fantasy Unlimited) and other magical guns that changed what they did based on the ammo you put in them. Like making alchemy with a gun. Here is an example of the Magun firing to summon different beings to do things, different combinations of 3 different sand types (spoilers, the sand is really the lifeforce of different people who died in a crystalline from) would summon different things.


Now barring the whole summoning thing. Something like that could also be used for an special / super attack with some of the gun types. Where after the ability is ready you have to pick which combination of resources or ammo types to use for your next over powered shot. And you know that some people, myself included, would be looking for a combo to make our next shot into unblockable spear or a mini nuke or something. lol
One ammo type i'd love is a mind controller temporarily controlling a tsihu with the ammo still embed inside the ammo itself would last for a while until it loses its energy or dissolved due to the tsihu corrosive blood perhaps.

In that time you could make the enemy run inside an enemy base and see what it sees uncovering secrets even make it destroy somethings before control is lost.

Another one i'd like to see is a very powerful sticky ammo that sticks enemies to walls. It can also be used in corridors to stick a line of them at the end like a spiders web. Then if they pile up so much the web charges up and wraps up and impoldes not even a hint of where they are like magic!
 
Aug 14, 2016
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#8
One ammo type i'd love is a mind controller temporarily controlling a tsihu with the ammo still embed inside the ammo itself would last for a while until it loses its energy or dissolved due to the tsihu corrosive blood perhaps.

In that time you could make the enemy run inside an enemy base and see what it sees uncovering secrets even make it destroy somethings before control is lost.

Another one i'd like to see is a very powerful sticky ammo that sticks enemies to walls. It can also be used in corridors to stick a line of them at the end like a spiders web. Then if they pile up so much the web charges up and wraps up and impoldes not even a hint of where they are like magic!
The mind control thing can be done with both technology and biology. With tech the easiest way to do it would be you fire the shot near there nerve cluster and just make signals more powerful to override their will. And for biology we can just copy from the drugs parasites make to mind-control their host. Although this option would be more for the people do R&D on the enemy and is one of classes who has medical knowledge and/or use medical tools. Outside of medics often times it is the recons who have next best medical knowledge and tools. As they tend to work outside of the area of control of the normal forces, so need to be able to tend to themselves and others (mostly things like rescue targets, refugees, and hostages) if need be. After all, one of the things I do like to point out to people from time to time is that zombies are things that exist, and parasites are the ones how make them.

As for things like glue guns and foam guns, in real life they are mostly used as a "nonlethal" weapon to trap people. And the reason I use quotation marks on nonlethal is because I know there is no such thing as a truly nonlethal weapon. Any and everything can be lethal if used in right or wrong way going by how you look at it. But anyway for some reason when reading what you said the first thing that popped in my head was a velvet worm for some reason. But one who can do things like set their glue on fire or make it blow up when they want to.

For the people who don't know what a velvet worm is.
 
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Pandagnome

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#9
With a kind of virus type ammo you could hit multiple targets near to the original target.
It may not eliminate them but make them more vulnerable such as slower movements or weakened attacks etc

This type of virus ammo could be either biological or Cybernetic and could help weakening some waves for harder hitters.

Since we have research labs and levels we may see modifications of ammo as an example
nano tech with drugs it could target the machinery and the drugs are released into the nervous system causing the opponent to over fire electrical signals shocking itself and anything nearby.
 
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#10
The funny thing with some lifeforms with built in weapons (things like retractable spikes) need to have to a way to protect themselves and other of their own kind from them. Otherwise they would end up hurting themselves and killing off their own race. So making it so they lose control of those things means they become a danger to themselves and everyone else around them.

This could be even more of a problem for beings where parts of their body can think for itself. For example octopi have a small brain at the base of each arm that control it, meaning in total they have 9 different brains in their body. Gives a different meaning to things like "my arm has a mind of its own". Anyway, if you could make it so it loses the ability to recognize itself it might in up attacking itself.

So think things like a berserker drug that could make an enemy both more power but at the same time unable to tell friend from foe. If there is no friendly fire in the game than the one who are effects by this will have it turned off. I've played a few games where abilities like this was used. It made some boss fights really harder than they needed to be because of people are using a lot of AOE attacks at the time they can end up killing each other not know why they are taking damage. But I also loved turning groups of enemies against each other because in my mind that to is a from of stealth. If everyone is busy fighting each other than no one would notice me walking into the base and stealing stuff.

P.S.
Even in animals with only brain like Humans this can happen. In Humans we call it things like Alien Hand Syndrome. Patients with Alien Hand Syndrome experience one of their limbs as alien, which acts autonomously and performs meaningful movements without being guided by the intention of the patient. In other words their arm and hand can does move without them knowing and do tasks.
 
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#13
In Warframe there is a stat called Punch Through that governs how much solid material a shot can pass through before it dissipates. This is an inherent attribute of some weapons, and can also be added or improved with mods.

There is even a sniper rifle called the Zenith that can shoot through everything, including the entire level, and can mark enemy heads through the walls. It felt like a nod to the Farsight rifle from Perfect Dark.

I would be surprised if Ember doesn't have something similar eventually.
 

Pandagnome

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#14
In Warframe there is a stat called Punch Through that governs how much solid material a shot can pass through before it dissipates. This is an inherent attribute of some weapons, and can also be added or improved with mods.

There is even a sniper rifle called the Zenith that can shoot through everything, including the entire level, and can mark enemy heads through the walls. It felt like a nod to the Farsight rifle from Perfect Dark.

I would be surprised if Ember doesn't have something similar eventually.
Wonder if such infinite punch through would use more energy and could it be truly infinite going through the different kinds of enemies... i suppose the balancing of stats with mods could help or using an alternate weapon.

I hope there will be profiles to switch to alter the attributes of the weapon and even one's to make it non-lethal also.
 
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#15
When it comes to punch through in well life it is all a matter of how much energy going into at target at once, how focused is that energy, and how fast is the energy being absorbed and/or disbursed.

In turns of things like bullets the math is easy enough to do. Remember it is now the size of the bullet that does the damage but speed of bullet mixed with its shape. I can make a sowing needle do more damage than a 50cal if I can make the needle move fast enough. Likewise no bullet can hurt you if it is moving to slow put much energy into a target. Again a 50cal is not going to hurt you much if it it being thrown at you by a baby.

The math for energy weapons is different because you have to take into account what type of energy it is, how that energy interacts with targets, and how much time is needed to get the effect you want. For example electrical arcs are roughly 4 times hotter than the surface of the sun. And yet we use electrical arcs for stun guns, because each arc is not lasting long enough to burn. But make the arc last longer, like say in an arc furnace diamond, you can carbon into diamonds. Fun fact, in some cities where they atomize their trash in high energy arc furnace end up making a lot of artificial diamonds from all the carbon within the trash.

So a lot of things can be done if the right math is used. And for the people who understand the math it would be possible for them to go mining with that same tool the use to kill enemies with. After all, not many lifeforms can survive being transmuted or atomized.
 
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