Evolving Enemies

Discussion in 'General Ember Discussion' started by Aphaz, Jul 30, 2016.

Would you like to have Evolving Enemies

Poll closed Sep 30, 2016.
  1. Yes, i'd love that

    76.2%
  2. No, i like them plain

    4.8%
  3. Mah, couldn't care one way or another

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. All the same to me as long as i get to kill them aplenty

    19.0%
  1. Aphaz

    Aphaz Deepscanner

    what i would like to see is enemies that evolve beyound just extra X damage and extra Y hp...i'll use the chosen as an example as most ppl are familiar with them (i'll also divide them by tier just for ease of explanation).

    Brute: instead of just it running around puching ppl (with extra dam and hp at higher levels), how about...
    -Tier 1: just runns around punching ppl
    -Tier 2: add an AB punch. it doesn't have to be a 50m AB, even 10-15m is more than enough
    -Tier 3: add a "Hulk Smash" jump & ground strike that does AoE dam (and mybe knockback)
    -Tier 4: add a sword and a charge-up dash strike

    ofc, higher tier enemies would still have all the lower tier abilities (just deal more dam (lol) or have a longer dash distance)...etc.

    things like these is what i found FF to lack the most, evolving enemy types. i meam the "ultra/mega/strato/kato/blasting" melding uber entity and it can't even do that...makes it kinda a lolish entity, imho
    :D

    also, i know i'm prolly buggering some ppl w this, but...this is a collection of ideas i compiled for FF, back when FF was what i spent most of my time on (and i thought that the devs were actually interested in what the community thought), so if it help Ember in any way, i'd be more than happy
    :D

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19873325/FF Ideas.odt
     
  2. MattHunX

    MattHunX Player One

    *headshot*

    There. Dead before it could even growl at me.

    Then, they should evolve to a point where no one can one-shot them, but if that happens, then it will be the same frustration one may have had with FF, that no matter how powerful one has gotten, damage-wise, anyway, enemies keep coming back stronger, so one cannot really FEEL more powerful. e.g.: I used to measure my Power Rating and generally my damage out put by seeing if I could one-shot certain humanoid or even non-humanoid enemy type. Chosen Juggernauts. One shot to the head, they fall back (from a Perk, actually) or just on their knees, stunned, weakened, trying to stand with barely any HP left (though, they can still fire a bomb at me, while the animation of picking themselves up from the ground was still playing). Good. I only needed to put them out of their misery. Common chosen trooper. One shot to the head. Dead. As it should be. Melded Culex. One shot to the supposed weak-spot (not sure if it even had that, to this day), still alive. What!? Still cannot even one-shot some bug? Need to get stronger.

    This was another major annoyance in FF, especially recently. I started playing Hardcore missions and Defense of Dredge...etc. thinking that I'm gonna own hordes of level 45 enemies, alone, without problems. Instead, what they do, similar to many games, is that they take enemy-types the player has already dealt with, learned to deal with, have become strong enough to easily deal with and scale them up in level, HP and damage, so it is not the player that kills them with a few shots or one, but those enemies kill the player, often instantly.

    It is extremely irritating and quite frankly stupid.

    Have an evolved form of the enemies, yes. But, also make it apparent in their appearance and their attacks, as well. Make them larger or if they're about agility and speed, make them sleeker...etc., just don't scale up grunts and foot-soldiers and have them mow down groups of players, just because they're suddenly 3-5 levels higher than the highest possible level. It will also add diversity.
     
    Vedemin likes this.
  3. Aphaz

    Aphaz Deepscanner

    "The ideas in this file https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19873325/FF Ideas.odt are public domain and may be freely used without any consideration, compensation or infringement of intellectual property right."

    i forgot to post this part (or more accurately, i didn't know i had to so it can be freely used until grummz told me to :D ), so here it is.
     
  4. Luisedgm

    Luisedgm Player One

    With "evolving" you mean just adding new abilities and attacks?
     
  5. Squid Boss

    Squid Boss Emberite - T.H.M.P.R.

    While new functioning enemies are a good idea there could also be a system of checks and balances based around damage types and resistances. A fun part about Borderlands was that most enemies were the same, Badass mobs were simply more spongy base characters scaled up and a few more little bells and whistles in appearances, but what made some of the combat more interesting was resistances to types of damage and that shields were less effective vs electricity, armored units weak vs corrosive and stronger against others and resistant to fire. That's something FF never really did cash in on and couldn't because weapon variety and elements were not brought in until later and this never really took full flight.

    I'd think if you wanted to make enemies different you'd really just want to make a fully fleshed our roster of baddies to throw at the player and perhaps add variables or randomized buffs. One thing that was particularly fun about Fallout was the morphing into Legendary mobs. Such an effect could be triggered randomly and cause a new effect or ability or durability or health gain or damage output boost to the enemy.

    The more scripted the more easily we can simply find the counter but the more random the more we keep that sense of awe since any situation could turn bad at the flip of a switch.
     
    MattHunX likes this.
  6. DeyjaVou

    DeyjaVou Emberite

    While I don't think its feasible to see enemies evolve during combat, except as a boss stage, I think a system already exists that could provide an interesting dynamic beyond that of combat support drones.

    In spiral knights, one of the tilesets features little demons whose hierarchy matches that of an office, except demonic. If you didn't read the wiki link, this is generally how they work:
    Grunts (two varieties) attack the player, but do little damage.
    Bosses don't attack the player, but can promote Grunts to much stronger units called Overtimers.
    Yesmen also do not attack the player, but passively increase the defenses of Bosses. If a boss dies close by, they enrage, and transform into Overtimers.

    In Spiral Knights, underlings can become Bosses and continue their work, but this can result in a useful unit becoming a useless unit, depending on how you handle the pack. Your efficiency depends entirely on your ability to split up the pack, separating bosses and grunts. There are also many different approaches you can take to dismantling a pack of Devilites. You can kill only bosses, watching people uselessly promote themselves and be suddenly separated from the pack before any promotions can take place. You can follow tradition and kill everything in a straight path from entry to exit points, or you can just kill whichever grunt the boss is facing.

    A system like this could be interesting to see in Ember. Packs that fight with their own hierarchy and system of buffs, or packs that could merge and become more powerful, though not in the same as linked. In terms of what Ember could see for its humanoid alien opponents, Engineers could drop supply crates that enemies dash back to and retrieve powerful weapons from, or armor upgrades. We create systems wherein certain units have internal timers, and when those timers hit 0 they buff parts of or everyone in packs of enemies. Instead of the static boosts like combat drones, or the priority kill-first like healing drones, which are both essential to have in larger packs of enemies, why not include hidden buffs that reveal themselves after an engagement has started, surprising new players and reminding experienced players to kill them first next time.
     
  7. Daynen

    Daynen Active Member

    "Evolving" enemies need to have more complete ability kits in regards to offense, defense, mobility and team tactics. Just as players learn how to better utilize their jets, weaponry, cover, and abilities, the enemy needs to do the same. In a game where horizontal progression is the order of the day, the LAST thing we need is enemies who suddenly refuse to die from a perfect sniper headshot like they have been for the last 3 months. Now, if say, that weakspot MOVED, due to radical changes in their armor or shielding technology...that's a different story.

    More dangerous enemies need to be faster, make decisions more often, work better as a team, use a better variety of weapons to counter us, take advantage of the terrain, and STOP STANDING AROUND SOAKING UP MY ENTIRE AMMO COUNT WHILE DOING NOTHING.
     
    MattHunX likes this.
  8. Aphaz

    Aphaz Deepscanner

    well, i may have oversimplified my explanation about evolving enemies...that said, the point was more about "not just adding more hp & dam to higher level of the same enemy" so what most of you said does fall into the range of what i was talking about.
    so long as some kind of "progress" is added, "i don't really care what it is", either better tactics or more different attack styles/patterns, so long as it's not just extra hp & dam only, i'm fine with it.
    :D
     
  9. TankHunter678

    TankHunter678 Well-Known Member

    This is Mr. Brute McEnemy.

    He is a former Pirate, former in that his ship crashed and now he is stuck on a hostile world filled with Player Characters shooting at him every day.

    Say hello Mr. Brute.

    Mr. Brute: *grunts*

    So how do you intend to survive longer against these nasty Player Characters?

    Mr. Brute: "They use a lot of kinetic weapons, so I will start wearing armor especially on my head cause of those blasted snipers."

    They seem to be bringing a lot of energy weapons now, what will you do?

    Mr. Brute: "I have a stock of personal Energy Shields I looted off of a cargo shipment before my ship was shot down, I am gonna wear those as well."

    You seem pretty well geared now defensively, but they keep beating you, what will you do now?

    Br. Brute: "How does particle beam cannon sound? Shoulder mounted missile launchers? Powered MEK Exoskeleton? Underarm Flamethrower?"

    That sounds like a boss fight Mr. Brute.
     
  10. Aphaz

    Aphaz Deepscanner

    @TankHunter678 : lol...nice one.
    :D
    mind telling me what this relates to specifically?
     
  11. MattHunX

    MattHunX Player One

    Just make all that buffed equipment somehow suitable for the enemy that is using them.

    Some common pirate shouldn't be decked out in full or even partial high-tech gear. Maybe one or two parts of their looted equipment would be of the higher tech or higher rarity type, but only the strongest of them should be equipped with more unusual weaponry and auxiliaries...etc. And even those mini-bosses or bosses shouldn't all possess the same set of equipment. Mix that up, as well. Randomize it.
     
  12. TankHunter678

    TankHunter678 Well-Known Member

    If the only thing to change for an enemy is its offensive abilities then it wont matter. It will need to have its HP sponged up to make it able to survive in the face of players.

    If you upgrade its offensive and defensive capabilities you do not need to turn it into a sponge. As it will need the player to adapt. Depending on how you do it it can be in the form of weakspots in the defense, the ability to blast sections of armor off to make a weakspot, destroy a shield generator to remove the possibility of their shields coming back, or using certain weapon/element types that are highly effective against the defense layer.

    Its something that Borderlands does, and it makes fights interesting and all about maneuvering, cover, and target prioritization.

    Buzzards strafing with rockets, armored psychos chasing you from cover, midget handlers throwing down walls of HMG fire from behind their shields, BADASS class enemies backing up everything else with their own buffed up firepower.

    @Squid Boss brought it up as well.
     
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  13. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider - Firstclaimer

    Rather than emergent individual enemies you might want to go with enemy groups. None of the enemies are bullet sponges this way, but the rest of the group will "learn" from each member that dies.

    To make it more interesting, large encounters might be lead by a miniboss character who is shielded by the rest of the company. It would be the one directing its members on what to do, observing your weapon types and abilities to order counters as time goes on. If everyone is using laser type weapons it might order everyone to begin tossing out reflective chaff grenades. If a number of your team is using AoE weapons it will order everyone to spread out so you can't target multiple enemies etc etc.

    In a really large scale battle the mini-boss character will routinely call down additional foot soldiers who will not have all of the commands previously thrown out but will quickly pick them up from those left alive. The end goal would be to take out all of the foot soldiers which would unshield the miniboss. Once the shield goes down though the mini boss would attack using all of the skills/abilities etc that it had previously commanded its minions to use.
     
  14. TankHunter678

    TankHunter678 Well-Known Member

    So effectively a series of local AI Directors?
     
  15. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider - Firstclaimer

    Doesn't always have to be AI either...imagine if it was actually a Dev playing...
     
  16. Alfonso

    Alfonso Emberite

    In many MMORPG, elite mobs are there but they are spawned as different class from the beginning.

    How about let AI to start as weak low level and based on how long it has been on the field, the AI gets experience per minute(or 10min, hour...) and eventually reach elite level. Once the AI mob reaches elite rank, it gains ability to have minions and occupying the area. Then again, minions will become elites and AI occupying area wil get bigger and bigger.
    Once there are more than 3 elites with their minions, one of elites gets more level and becomes boss mob in the area and that will trigger a special mission.(or raid some kind)

    This way, area that is not popular among players will have bigger group of mobs(also high ranking mobs) and reward players for clearing the danger.

    In short, the evil seed grows in the dark.
     
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  17. TankHunter678

    TankHunter678 Well-Known Member

    That would be something new, and fit in with the dynamic events system.
     
  18. Aphaz

    Aphaz Deepscanner

    agreed, that would rly be nice
     

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