Discussion: Energy/Mana, Cooldowns, or something else?

[NightStroke]

Since we are going to have abilities in this game, what would be your preferred way of preventing ability spam? Since abilities tend to be more powerful than the gunplay itself, we don't want the game to turn into an ability spam fest. Does it matter? Do we really need to prevent players from spamming?

If anyone needs clarification,

Energy/Mana- Abilities have a "cost" which consumes a quantity of energy from a pool; this pool can be restored through various means(pickups, reapply stations, certain support abilities). With 0 energy, no abilities can be used. There is no limit as to how quickly abilities can be fired(except maybe cast time), allowing for spamming of abilities in quick bursts. The system can be modified by changing how much energy a character has or changing how much energy an ability costs.

Ability Cooldowns- Every ability has a separate timer; when the player activates an ability, it goes onto cooldown and cannot be used again until the timer ends. This system can be modified by changing cooldown timers, adding ways to reset/reduces cooldowns, or adding ability "charges"(you have multiple charges on an ability, each one with an individual cooldown and a maximum number of charges).

Other ideas from the thread:
-Take the cooldown system and alter it such that depending on how low the cooldown is modified in an ability, it transforms into a weapon for primary use. E.g. If a player modifies a electrical bolt ability to a cooldown less than 1, the ability becomes a weapon/weapon attachment that fires with that rate of fire.

 

[Hybelkaninen]

Picked "Limit spam another way".

I would like to see an "Energy Charge (EC)" system.

For example, none of the abilities have a separate cooldown.
You can have equipped a maximum of 3 abilities and have 3 EC.
Using an ability would put 1 EC on a cooldown of say...15-20 seconds before it becomes available again.
With this you can spam an ability up to 3 times but by doing so you end up with no charges for any other ability until the recharge is done.

 

[Demigan]

I would think a cooldown+recharging energy system would work well. Or maybe a cumulative energy sucking system?

Say you use ability X and it uses 1 energy. You will recharge 1 energy in 10 seconds from the moment you are below maximum energy.
Your ability X is now on cooldown... But you can still use it. Using it while it's on cooldown will leech more energy, 4 energy for instance, and it will increase the cooldown even further. Using it immediately again, the cooldown will be even higher and suck 6 energy (it doesn't have to be linear) etc etc. High cooldown=high energy consumption, low/no cooldown=low energy consumption.

If you have 3 abilities, you could activate each one for their lowest energy cost and get them on a cooldown, then you either have to wait till the cooldown goes down or for it to go up.

Energy could also be useful for other stuff. Having high energy could result in faster health regeneration, faster movement, higher jump height, faster jumpjet regeneration. Using your abilities while on cooldown might just save your life, or end it if you can't use it successfully and run low on energy. This doesn't immediately limit the amount of times players can use an ability, but it does give you more strategy when playing. Do you use your abilities quickly and possibly hurt yourself later on? Do you not use your abilities and hope you can make it work?
Best would be if the game often forces the players to choose: Do you use your abilities to get out of a sticky situation, or do you use your skill and cunning to get out and rely on your better passive capabilities to stay safe? Imagine a situation where you are forced to flee. You could spam your afterburn ability to get the hell out of there, but you might not go far enough and your lower energy will mean the enemy can catch up faster.

 

[Krhys]

Cooldowns make logical sense on the general use mods, i.e. an inbuilt safety system to stop the whole device from melting down or exploding from overuse.

On the more powerful, high energy demanding modules, you can have a capacitor charging system, which takes some time to build up to full charge. I suppose this is similar to the HKM module in FF but can be used for more module types that just an 'ultimate' ability (apologies for the generic MMO terminology). Makes a lot more sense than a device charging up as you kill enemies...

 

[Squid Boss]

Overwatch feels right.

Depends on a multitude of variables but each ability or on use function should have a cooldown. Tactical and thoughtful but fairly frequent use of abilities is pretty good. Spam is plain stupid. If abilities have multiple charges we need a GCD.

 

[TankHunter678]

I prefer tactical cooldowns for abilities, rather then pure spammable abilities.

Multi-charge mods should exist for abilities, but the downside should definitely be longer cooldown. This way someone can put multiple charges on an ability for very rapid burst use (like 1.3 Afterburner) that gets banked.

Basically, I do not want a case where an ability cooldown is so short that I should just be constantly tapping that button instead of using my weapons. Yet I still want the ability to, if I am willing to accept the downside, have a tactical burst of multiple uses. I would have to wait a long time to rebank the burst but that is the downside to building that way. (I miss 1.3 afterburner)

That being said, any cooldown resets that also fill up all charges should have a very hefty build defining cost. While I did love the apothesis afterburner shockwave cooldown reset combo I ran on my Firecat, I should actually have to give up something for such a build.

 

[Pandagnome]

Limit ability spam by certain spawned pets?

 

[EvilKitten]

What if at least some (depending on what they do) abilities were able to by overcharged. Like if you simply press the ability button it would fire off and have a normal cooldown, but if you held down the ability button it would overcharge, say up to 5 seconds maximum of overcharge would give you a 1.5x larger ability but for 3x the cooldown. It would also consume extra energy from your suit so if you are maxed out then you wouldn't be able to get as large of a burst.

(Numbers arbitrary and simply added as an example)

 

[Daynen]

I've never been a fan of cooldowns as a balancing factor. When I see an ability that just has a timer before it can be used again, I know the designers basically thought: "okay, this is SO good that it will break the game unless we just don't let them use it whenever they want." The longer the cooldown, the more gamebreaking the ability likely is when used in succession. I see cooldowns so often in games these days that they seem like a design crutch. That just tells me we need functions and options that aren't so good that cooldowns are the only way to keep them fair.

Thankfully, in a game where guns are the primary attention-getter, we have several built in limiters, the simplest of which is ammo. Out of rounds? Out of luck. A great many things can be put on an ammo system and not all of them are weapons. The pro is that everything is limited to responsible use and not on a timer. The con is that ammo, no matter the form, is costly (though this is a design 'pro' in it's own right.)

We also have enough imagination to use other, slightly more intuitive methods of rationing the use of some functions. One approach I see underutilized is one that a lot of anime fans will probably grasp: consequences for overuse. Overheating, frame rattling, misfiring, exhaustion, bodily harm, guaranteed death in exchange for a kamikaze attack--whatever the form, the bottom line is that using an ability under this school of thought comes with risk; overusing it is dangerous and taxing, possibly even lethal. The advantage to this system is that it gets rid of arbitrary cooldowns and abstract limitations and places responsibility on the player. (If you don't let that laser rifle cool after a few shots, it WILL melt down and damage your frame, leaving you without a gun, for example.) It also allows us to include DANGEROUSLY powerful stuff that canny players know not to use except in a dire emergency or as part of an intentionally reckless display. It creates an actual "cool down" period that should be respected, but can be ignored--at great cost. The con emerges when players learn how to alleviate or circumvent the consequences and spam their heavy hitters despite the risk. This too can be managed in design, however.

Not everyone will appreciate the pros and cons of any of these systems; hence I suggest we use ALL of them in concert. Some things are best managed by ammo limits, some actually DO make sense to have on a strict cooldown timer, and some others should be unlimited use with escalating consequences. This would allow players to choose their flavor, balance the pros and cons and manage their resources in the manner that suits them best.

 

[EvilKitten]

@Daynen The "cooldown" is simply a representation of your suit charging up the module that allows that ability to function. If you think of your abilities having giant capacitors which have to be charged up before they can be discharged again, that takes time. The alternative which I would prefer to see for abilities tied directly to your weapon would be to have a maximum use on an ability. So everytime you leave the garage you have 10x uses of Ability X and once you run out you run out until returning to base. In this case they would be using a "special" non scavengeable ammo.

 

[Daynen]

@Daynen The "cooldown" is simply a representation of your suit charging up the module that allows that ability to function. If you think of your abilities having giant capacitors which have to be charged up before they can be discharged again, that takes time. The alternative which I would prefer to see for abilities tied directly to your weapon would be to have a maximum use on an ability. So everytime you leave the garage you have 10x uses of Ability X and once you run out you run out until returning to base. In this case they would be using a "special" non scavengeable ammo.

Ah, good way to catch the in-between. This is another of the lesser used methods of cooling things down; charges. Even I forget this one exists sometimes. Needing a certain amount of time to "recharge" a shot is still essentially and mechanically a 'cooldown,' though it at least allows for multiple charges to be stored and discharged in succession. The recon's "resonating bolts" ability in FF is a good example of this, despite how broken the ability was...

I approve of this technique as well, albeit in moderation and concert with others as above. The more forms of cooldowns and ammo we have interacting with each other, the less arbitrary each of them will seem, and the more alive and engaging the game will be.

 

[Cadbane]

Realistically, I think there should be multiple ways to limit abilities. The limit should be defined by what the ability does and how it is intended to be used. Having one generic (Time, Points Pool, Etc) mechanic to use is just bad design.


Idea:
Unlimited use. Each use drains from "A Pool" or even multiple "Pools" (Pools can be time, energy, resources, etc.). The pools can be recharged / refilled at a certain rate. The faster the ability is spammed, the more units each use consumes from pool. The lower the pool is, the slower it recharges. So at 100% - 75% it recharges at a rate of 50 per second, 75% - 50% it recharges at a rate of 30 per second, 50% - 25% it recharges at a rate of 20 per second, but below 25% it recharges at a rate of 5 per second (totally modifiable, just an example).

A skillful and mindful person would get a lot more use out of this, then the poor guy who just wants to spam it. This makes you think and experiment with uses and timing TO GET THE MOST BANG FOR YOUR BUCK, OR HAVE A STRATEGY ON HOW TO USE IT BASED ON SITUATIONS YOU WILL BE IN.. It becomes a thing of skill, not button mashing.

To further make you think of how you should be using the ability, you can factor in the more spam (how fast you drain the pool, not how many times you drain it) the harder it would be on the system, the greater the damage (Not just the normal wear and tear) is incurred and the more likely it is going to need repairs.

This can be applied to many different types of abilities, the more pools an ability drains from, or the faster you spam it, the more consequences it will have. Can't use ability A cause ability B drained the pool. Spam ability C all the time, repair bill through the roof, never ready when you need it, etc.

JUST an "Example:"

AfterBurner: Pools are Energy and Fuel from your Omniframe.
Each use uses 10 units. Using a sliding scale of sorts, you could affect how one would use it based on current pool points. Lets say you use hit it once and your pool drains 10 units. You hit it right away gain, the pool drains 20 more points (cause your frame needs to produce the same effect at a faster rate). Now if you wait say 10 seconds before using it again, it would only cost 10 units. So a scale could be Determined.

The energy would be a recharging type of pool, where the fuel would be a resource type, needing a physical component for refill.

First use 10 units. If you do not wait the entire 10 secnds, the scale doubles.
Wait Time -- Units
1 - 20
2 - 19
3 - 18
4 - 17
5 - 16
6 - 15
7 - 14
8 - 13
9 - 12
10 - 11
10+ Resets to 10 units
(Hit before 10 second refresh 1st time)
Wait Time -- Units
1 - 40
2 - 38
3 - 36
4 - 34
5 - 32
6 - 30
7 - 28
8 - 26
9 - 24
10 - 22
10+ Resets to 10 units

Edit 1:
Other points of interest, you can reduce potency if used to fast. Example: First burst sends you 100 meters, you wait 1 second it only sends you 20 meters further, etc... I see potency reduction working on other abilities well too.

Thoughts?

 

[EvilKitten]

Direct Weapon Attacks: Fixed Charges outside of garrage (possible to field craft some charges?)
Ability Attacks: Multiple charges with slow recharge, or a powerup effect instead of a cooldown.
CC's, Movement and Stealth abilities: Single charge with overcharge option and standard regen
"Super" abilities: Mixture of fixed and single charge options with super slow recharge.

Note that how quickly you regenerate is based on excess power on your frame. The less extra power your frame has the slower everything regenerates.

 

[ble003]

how about that's something you can mod for as well?
allows for significantly more outlandish solutions without alienating people
examples off the top of my head for ways an ability could recharge:
-have a cooldown
-use a regenerating resource(basically energy) shared with some, but not necessarily all other abilities
-have a cooldown shared with some, but not necessarily all other abilities
-have its own ammo
-start out as a weaker ability that you use to charge it, or turns into one when used (for example a melee-attack that recharges a percentage every time you land it, a short-lived defensive ability that turns incoming damage into charge, or an anti-ability that prevents all movement for a short period of time)
-debuff you after use, more uses mean greater debuff
-have a percentage charge, where you can use it for that percentage effect
-happen whether you want it to or not at a given interval
-need to be charged, giving a cue before you use it and possibly preventing you from using something else while charging

 

[Squid Boss]

Just remember it is a shooter.

Firefall became so ability based and less gun based as time went on. In the end we did not care aboit our weapon as much as we did our OP abilities. Most of this depends on the abilities but I believe abilities should be extentions and not the defining aspect of game play. We need to make sure gun play is equally important if not more so.

 

[Omnires]

In games like Warframe all your abilities share the same energy pool and different abilities use up different amounts of energy to use, also abilities that can stay active after being turned on will steadily drain your energy until you turn them off or you run out of energy. So even if the abilities are spamable (some way more than others) that limits you is how much energy you have and can gather. Although it is a system that works for that game, I personally felt it don't make much logical sense.

Real idea
Some mecha games use a heat system. You have unlimited use of weapons and/or abilities but everything adds heat to your system as they are being used. This heat has a cumulative effect and when your mecha overheats it goes into a force cool down state to protect itself as it tries to vent all that heat to prevent a system overload or reactor/generator meltdown. Meaning players always have to be mindful of how much heat using those things is making and have to pace yourself or risk being in the middle of a fight and having you gear stop working because you are pushing them too hard.

Personally, I think things like heat system when it is done right. It adds an element of realism to what you are doing as things like real guns can overheat if you use them too much in a short time making parts do things like warp which increase the odds of something jamming or breaking. Even weapons with no moving parts like laser guns in real life build up a lot of heat in the gun as you are firing it, so keep them working at optimum efficiency you have watch how much heat is building up in the gun itself.

You have the game also make things like the weather and where you are fight effect heat. For example fighting in the rain, in large bodies of water, and really cold places would remove heat from the system faster. But fighting in a hot place would make heat build up faster.

In games like the Armored Core they have some weapons that are designed to make a lot of heat. Overall most of them don't do a lot of damage but the point is you make your enemy's mecha overheat and shutdown and/or blow up as its systems start to fail.

 

[MattHunX]

In games like Warframe all your abilities share the same energy pool and different abilities use up different amounts of energy to use, also abilities that can stay active after being turned on will steadily drain your energy until you turn them off or you run out of energy. So even if the abilities are spamable (some way more than others) that limits you is how much energy you have and can gather. Although it is a system that works for that game, I personally felt it don't make much logical sense.

Real idea
Some mecha games use a heat system. You have unlimited use of weapons and/or abilities but everything adds heat to your system as they are being used. This heat has a cumulative effect and when your mecha overheats it goes into a force cool down state to protect itself as it tries to vent all that heat to prevent a system overload or reactor/generator meltdown. Meaning players always have to be mindful of how much heat using those things is making and have to pace yourself or risk being in the middle of a fight and having you gear stop working because you are pushing them too hard.

Personally, I think things like heat system when it is done right. It adds an element of realism to what you are doing as things like real guns can overheat if you use them too much in a short time making parts do things like warp which increase the odds of something jamming or breaking. Even weapons with no moving parts like laser guns in real life build up a lot of heat in the gun as you are firing it, so keep them working at optimum efficiency you have watch how much heat is building up in the gun itself.

You have the game also make things like the weather and where you are fight effect heat. For example fighting in the rain, in large bodies of water, and really cold places would remove heat from the system faster. But fighting in a hot place would make heat build up faster.

In games like the Armored Core they have some weapons that are designed to make a lot of heat. Overall most of them don't do a lot of damage but the point is you make your enemy's mecha overheat and shutdown and/or blow up as its systems start to fail.

Like your heat-sink idea for weapons. Especially heavier one or energy-weapons.

With that said, I picture the following scene:

Ember's version of Aero: "Boss!! Your frames heat-levels are critical! You have to cool it down or it will kill you!!"

*Reaper Operative looks at the lake a few feet away. Thinks "cold water". Goes *SPLASH* *

E's v.o. Aero: "Boss!?...Boss!!? You're...alive! And your frame...it's...undamaged? How?"

You: "Whaddaya mean? Why would it be damaged? It's just water."

Aero: "Um...nevermind."

 

[EvilKitten]

Elsewhere on the forums I had made a suggestion about using heat as a defense mechanic for energy weapons, where the suit would convert incoming energy into heat and the more heat you had the less efficient the defense would be. Would be kinda interesting to combine the two concepts together. Energy weapons could be used not only to damage but also to overload the mech (or enemy equivalent).

 

[MattHunX]

Elsewhere on the forums I had made a suggestion about using heat as a defense mechanic for energy weapons, where the suit would convert incoming energy into heat and the more heat you had the less efficient the defense would be. Would be kinda interesting to combine the two concepts together. Energy weapons could be used not only to damage but also to overload the mech (or enemy equivalent).

The Tsihu themselves might not have such mechs, though. However, that doesn't mean that some rogue factions of our species wouldn't make use of them and mod them to their own way of fighting to use against Reapers and Tsihu alike.

 

[EvilKitten]

The Tsihu themselves might not have such mechs, though. However, that doesn't mean that some rogue factions of our species wouldn't make use of them and mod them to their own way of fighting to use against Reapers and Tsihu alike.

Mech's no, but they might still have the same design of converting damage into heat and using ability "modules", maybe a biological equivalent, or they might still use suits of *some* sort. While visually very different I would really like it if the enemy AI used the same rules and setup parameters as the players do.