Avoid Over-Balancing

[Squid Boss]

Division is just a shitty game with bunch of design choices that clearly were hastily thrown in just so the game can be shipped on time. That game was simply overhyped, and is poor example for anything.

Like I said FireFall was balancing for PvP for sometime, and it worked pretty well.



WoW has to do that because it's stat base mmo, this is the only way they can make it work (and there are numerous mmos that have been doing this long before WoW too). They have to have something to equalize the power difference.

Ember is not going to be typical mmo. It will have horizontal progression, meaning that level 1 character is not going to be that far behind max level character.
So there is no point in making another layer of stats for pvp, because the nature of the game is already set everything to where players will be pretty close in power no matter how long they have been playing.

The only Real problem would be behavior of some skills. Obviously an AoE skill that can be cast by a single person and it's strong enough to incinerate large group of enemies, would be a problem when is used against other players, especially if there are say couple dozen of people using it at the same time.
So you simply have such skills do less damage, or have lesser effect when used on the playres. A stun shot can freeze a low grade AI for ten seconds, but it would only freeze a player for 2.
And that's how everything should be balanced, so skills would simply be less effective against real players, because we are staying omni frames that are protected against our own weapons. You wouldn't have to change between PvP or PvE sets, you just use whatever you want and learn how whatever equipment and abilities you are using behave when used against other players.

Also I just want to make it clear here that I am not asking for all out open world pvp, where people can get ganked and griefed. There has to be system in place that would prevent any of that, of course.

But my point is that, yes balancing pvp and pve in one world is difficult, but so as hundreds other things that comprise a successful game. Heck making a shooter mmo with horizontal progression sounds pretty tough, but here we are.

I am not posting examples for 100% excuse. It simply highlights issues that arise with mixing PvE and PvP.

You will have to give separate attention and exclude and include this or that. When it crosses you run into trouble; that's all I am putting out there.

I would hope if PvP ever pops up in Ember it is done very differently. I found Firefall PvP absolutely atrocious. :/

 

[Vladplaya]

@NitroMidgets If history tells us anything, every single mmo shooter game failed also. Tabula Rasa, Hellgate London, Global Agenda, Defiance, FireFall, Division. None of them were/are very successful games.
Why? Because they weren't done right. There were glaring problems in all of those that now Ember will try to avoid.
Having PvP and PvE in the same world is similar concept, we have seen all the problems and mistakes, and I hardly can believe it is just impossible to get done. Difficult for sure, but not impossible, it's all comes down to how much benefit will payers get out of such system? And I think it will be very beneficial, as I pointed out before, PvE only game with low amount of content that players will chew through in weeks, will start getting boring very very quickly.
While when it comes down to PvP, where we have games like Counter Strike, which is pretty much same experience that people been playing for like 20 years now.
It's definitely a great chunk of gameplay opportunity that would not be wise to disregard, especially really early in the development when things can be build with pvp in mind, which would make it much easier to implement if it will be added in the future.

 

[TankHunter678]

PvP and PvE is best kept separate because they both are their own games in and of themselves.

Can they be included in the same game? Yes.
Can they be balanced in the same game? Yes.
Can they be balanced combined as one? No.

If PvP and PvE are balanced together as one then any change for one side... affects the other negatively. It is very rare for something to be underpowered in both PvP and PvE, and the changes to make them viable are very different in PvP and PvE.

So long as the two beasts are kept separate, have their own rules, have their own balance they can exist in the same game. This also fits with the PvP, PvE, and hybrid players wants, needs, and mentalities.

 

[NitroMidgets]

Not saying it is impossible, just that I have not seen it pulled off correctly yet.

At least one other game in development right now has simply given items dual stats. One for PVE and one for PVP that if you are browsing your inventory you can toggle between them.

They are treating them as two different damage and ability attributes. They are explaining it as our enemies use defensive tech X and we use Y so what we are using has different effects depending on the tech we are fighting. It helps explain things a bit better then simply trying to balance both.

 

[Beemann]

Your example sounds less like "overbalancing" and more like poor balance. If A and B can pull off shots that deal 1k damage, but A can fire 30% faster and nobody takes the shots that deal less than 1k, A is better.

As far as balance as a whole goes, things need to have comparable output, or you end up with stale minmaxed comps. If your content is easy enough people will start doing joke/challenge builds/teams, but that's not something I'd really want to strive for personally. I'd also say that it's probably good if there's some things none of the classes/roles/whatever can do well, as that provides something to fight over in PvP, and something to build and protect in PvE

At the end of the day though, you're still not going to get the same level of balance you would from mirrored options, but you can at least try to close the gap

Also if we get PvP, can we please avoid the sheer volume of cheese FF had?

Re: recoil
Not gonna restart the argument here, but I don't find randomized recoil to be a compelling or skill-promoting mechanic. In fact it's typically used most generously in shooters going for ease of play rather than depth, and I tend to think there's a reason for that.

Re: balance
Separate PvP and PvE balance is the way to go, especially if there's a lot of customization options

Re: longevity
People are still enjoying SP games and old as hell MMOs. It's not a PvP or PvE thing, it's a compulsion or quality thing. People still play QW, but there are also people still playing Quake SP. There is still community generated content coming out for Quake and Doom 1/2. There are still people playing EQ. More interestingly, there are still people playing DeFRaG/Race/CTS even when there's nobody else around, and/or when the other game modes are basically dead

As a brief aside, I'm actually kinda surprised that there aren't many games with a mission builder attached. Even if you can't go Demonsteele crazy, being able to Mario Maker a shooter might be fun, especially if it has gameplay mechanics as underrepresented as some of the genre's classics

 

[DARKB1KE]

Not saying it is impossible, just that I have not seen it pulled off correctly yet.

Destiny does PVE to PVP pretty well if you haven't played it yet.
But other than that yeah, not many games have pulled it off well.

 

[Vladplaya]

I am not posting examples for 100% excuse. It simply highlights issues that arise with mixing PvE and PvP.

You will have to give separate attention and exclude and include this or that. When it crosses you run into trouble; that's all I am putting out there.

Isn't that just a natural "problems" of the game development in general? Yeah they will definitely have to figure things out, but that's just a nature of the beast.

I would hope if PvP ever pops up in Ember it is done very differently. I found Firefall PvP absolutely atrocious. :/

Which one? The latest iteration definitely was a pile. Best PvP they had was in the very beginning of the early beta, it was a blast imo. In fact it became much less fun and more stale when they implemented the pvp/pve separation, because at that point out just became it's own game within a different game and both had little too do with each other than sharing the assets.
That's why I really don't like when devs say something like, oh yeah we might add pvp in the future, but it will be a separate mode. People don't enjoy playing that tacked on pvp that is there for the sake of a check mark on the features list.
Use the full potential of the game instead, use the vast world as random battlegrounds, use the horizontal progression. So many things are already there to make it happen, it's just developers need to realize importance of it all.

 

[Thunderstrike]

No. After Firefall's development hell things should be focused on one at a time. Balancing PvE and PvP to work together is going to be a very hard beast to deal with, and there's already a lot of contention on what needs work first. Gunplay, abilities, movement, resources, crafting, world-building, etc. What works in one realm won't necessarily work in or with another. The core game needs to come first.

If we do ever see a PvP mode, I'd love to see Ember harken back to the FF's initial plan of a three-way war between the NPC Dark Ones and human-run Ascendants and Humans, without the two-race requirement of these factions though.

 

[Squid Boss]

Isn't that just a natural "problems" of the game development in general? Yeah they will definitely have to figure things out, but that's just a nature of the beast.

I suppose what I am getting at is that one would have to create both in sync and as you said, if some kickass totally sweet, AoE ability rocks in PvE, but pisses people off in PvP, you're going to have to find a solution. There's little to no difference saying 'Hits a player for only so much' and 'It only does this much in PvP because of a template' unless world PvP is a real thing. Unless we get PvP servers in Ember, which I'm not even sure makes sense, having that sort of distinction is a bit of a moot point. A template does the same but allows sliders and tweaks across the board as well as the option of making PvP it's own fully fleshed out game inside a game. I brought up WoW because they struggled with balancing PvE and PvP for many years is all.

There are plenty of ways to do the balancing act. You said what I said just in a different method.

Which one? The latest iteration definitely was a pile. Best PvP they had was in the very beginning of the early beta, it was a blast imo. In fact it became much less fun and more stale when they implemented the pvp/pve separation, because at that point out just became it's own game within a different game and both had little too do with each other than sharing the assets.
That's why I really don't like when devs say something like, oh yeah we might add pvp in the future, but it will be a separate mode. People don't enjoy playing that tacked on pvp that is there for the sake of a check mark on the features list.
Use the full potential of the game instead, use the vast world as random battlegrounds, use the horizontal progression. So many things are already there to make it happen, it's just developers need to realize importance of it all.

Frankly all of it. Though I've never experienced PvP in any game that was remotely fresh feeling for quite some time. I never found Firefall to have the substance to create a really valuable PvP experience given it was so heavily geared towards PvE. I don't believe mixing the two and trying to have them work hand in hand is ever going to work out without continuous speed bumps.

 

[Beemann]

Isn't that just a natural "problems" of the game development in general? Yeah they will definitely have to figure things out, but that's just a nature of the beast.

Balancing a set of items for two separate purposes is always going to be harder than balancing for one. As an example, id's classic titles have superb SP weapon balance. Shotguns are good for dealing with sudden close range attacks and ammo conservation, nailguns are good for damage on the run, fighting explosive resistant enemies and, along with the hitscan shotguns, can help to make the most of a Quad. In Doom, the Changing can be used to stun lock cacodemons, negating one source of projectiles. Explosives are used to take out groups and deal a ton of damage to bosses
How does QW play out? Explosives and the thunderbolt. People move too quickly and can access items so well, so having massive damage weapons, be they hitscan or explosive, is exceptionally important. It's worth noting even with that, that id did tweak the numbers for weapons in MP specifically to try to balance things out a little better for player on player fights

Which one? The latest iteration definitely was a pile. Best PvP they had was in the very beginning of the early beta, it was a blast imo.

I sincerely hope you don't mean the part where hitboxes were huge and hitting missiles was trivially easy. Or when movement speed was painfully slow both on the ground and in the air

Use the full potential of the game instead, use the vast world as random battlegrounds, use the horizontal progression. So many things are already there to make it happen, it's just developers need to realize importance of it all.

As an aside, pure horizontal progression isn't part of the plan. From what Mark Kern said in a different post, there will be some level of progression. In any case, I'd rather fight people on even terms for PvP personally. Never been a big fan of the whole ganking thing, win or lose

 

[Thunderstrike]

Some form of vertical progression is necessary in any MMO. Even Beta Firefall had it with Personal and Squad Thumpers. At some point farming for purple resources to get a tad bit more damage doesn't cut it. With expansions and new locations you can't keep making sidegrade variations of the same weapons and still have them be viable choices.

 

[EvilKitten]

Some form of vertical progression is necessary in any MMO. Even Beta Firefall had it with Personal and Squad Thumpers. At some point farming for purple resources to get a tad bit more damage doesn't cut it. With expansions and new locations you can't keep making sidegrade variations of the same weapons and still have them be viable choices.

No, you can make completely new and unique faction looks for the items that you already have. Remember there are like 28 different planets (factions) all vying for this world. It would be very easy and reasonable therefore to make each expansion be a new faction without adding any vertical progression at all. You do NOT want to make Ember follow the same "quest for player gear" game that all the other traditional MMO's have, it's what kills them all in the end. The purpose of this game isn't to get new stuff, it's to play the story, adventure in a new world and participate in a WARZONE.

 

[Thunderstrike]

No, you can make completely new and unique faction looks for the items that you already have. Remember there are like 28 different planets (factions) all vying for this world. It would be very easy and reasonable therefore to make each expansion be a new faction without adding any vertical progression at all. You do NOT want to make Ember follow the same "quest for player gear" game that all the other traditional MMO's have, it's what kills them all in the end. The purpose of this game isn't to get new stuff, it's to play the story, adventure in a new world and participate in a WARZONE.

There are 28 different factions vying for the Crixa universe, not Ember unless Mark has said something I'm not aware of. Faction reskins get very boring very quickly, just look at TF2. Vertical progression is necessary for the player to feel like they're advancing, but the difference is on how big a scale it takes place on. Beta Firefall had "Stage" gear, but it required a lot of work to upgrade to and there weren't many tiers beyond that if any at all. You never became overpowered unless there was some flaw in the game's balancing. If you were garbage at the game you'd still be garbage at it, it didn't elevate you far beyond what anyone else had. In time we'll see what happens though I guess.

 

[EvilKitten]

Vertical progression is necessary for the player to feel like they're advancing

Why...seems to me that this philosophy is driven by current MMO design not by any practical requirement. Players have been trained to think this way, which is a pity in my book. I strongly disagree with this statement where it relates to stats. It all depends on where the focus of the game is pointed at. Is this a skill based shooter? or is this a quest for player gear. Those two things are fairly exclusive of each other. Raw numbers are there to determine HOW you play, that is all. Any real vertical progression needs to come from player skill taking advantage of horizontal specialization.

When you get down to it, purposely adding in vertical progression into gear stats requires either that the numbers be large enough so that players can tell the difference. After which eventually skill gets pushed out of the equation and whether you can survive an encounter becomes dependent on your gear. Or the numbers have to be so small that they have no real impact on the player experience and thus there is no point in the first place. It may take years before it happens, but eventually vertical progression will kill a skill based game.

So with that in mind, what other incentive would there be for a player to earn a new piece of gear that didn't actually have any stat increases over their old one? The best way would be if the gear was considered a badge, or a trophy. Wearing that gear would give you a distinctly different visual appearance, and the acquiring of that gear would require a high amount of skill both with the arsenal at your disposal as well as your ability to work as a team to overcome incredible obstacles. Eventually as more and more players acquire the new gear it becomes less of a trophy, but then you can come out with a new factions gear and new difficulties to overcome. You will always know who the best players in the game are because they will be the ones sporting armor you can tell is different at a glance.

Gear becomes not the focus of the game, but rather the proclamation that you achieved and overcame. The focus remains not on vertical progression, but personal progression.

VENI, VIDI, VICI

http://liang-xing.deviantart.com/art/Thief-leader-reg-393182205
(sorry for the unagressive navel )

 

[Thunderstrike]

Why...seems to me that this philosophy is driven by current MMO design not by any practical requirement. Players have been trained to think this way, which is a pity in my book. I strongly disagree with this statement where it relates to stats. It all depends on where the focus of the game is pointed at. Is this a skill based shooter? or is this a quest for player gear. Those two things are fairly exclusive of each other. Raw numbers are there to determine HOW you play, that is all. Any real vertical progression needs to come from player skill taking advantage of horizontal specialization.

When you get down to it, purposely adding in vertical progression into gear stats requires either that the numbers be large enough so that players can tell the difference. After which eventually skill gets pushed out of the equation and whether you can survive an encounter becomes dependent on your gear. Or the numbers have to be so small that they have no real impact on the player experience and thus there is no point in the first place. It may take years before it happens, but eventually vertical progression will kill a skill based game.

So with that in mind, what other incentive would there be for a player to earn a new piece of gear that didn't actually have any stat increases over their old one? The best way would be if the gear was considered a badge, or a trophy. Wearing that gear would give you a distinctly different visual appearance, and the acquiring of that gear would require a high amount of skill both with the arsenal at your disposal as well as your ability to work as a team to overcome incredible obstacles. Eventually as more and more players acquire the new gear it becomes less of a trophy, but then you can come out with a new factions gear and new difficulties to overcome. You will always know who the best players in the game are because they will be the ones sporting armor you can tell is different at a glance.

Gear becomes not the focus of the game, but rather the proclamation that you achieved and overcame. The focus remains not on vertical progression, but personal progression.

VENI, VIDI, VICI

Visual progression is worse than vertical progression. When you tie cosmetics to ranks you devalue all cosmetics below the ones signifying highest rank. So if you're an dedicated veteran of Ember and you actually like the level 2 cosmetics more than your level 34 cosmetics, you're straight out of luck if you don't want to "look like a scrub". It makes actual customization of your character a no-go and distances you from your virtual self because you don't want the social judgement.

Tying it to random loot crates creates arbitrary values based on rarity as well, especially if there's a trading system. There's no real solution to this either because unless it's all equal-chance and there's no trading the same problem occurs.

A system such similar to Halo Reach could work. Pay XP for your shiny trinkets and make everything in the same category (torso armor, hat, mouthpiece, etc) cost the same amount. But then it's not progression, it's just picking out what you want most for your character.

 

[TankHunter678]

Firefall, back in the earliest CBT, was a skill based game. Very much so.

When PvE gear became part of the equation the PvP stopped being skill based. When you got recons with purple Sniper Rifles able to kill entire teams regardless of class as they come out of spawn simply because they did not have purple quality armor to survive being shot anywhere the game stops being about skill.

Pretty much the main form of progression should be towards community driven goals. Establishing that forward base in a dangerous hostile zone that has good resources, getting its defenses setup to withstand invasion assaults, getting the resources needed for a habitation field generator to push the wall forward and open up new areas to explore.

Player progression should be about widening your available arsenal.

Which is why the game wont have levels. There wont be a "level 34" cosmetic or a "level 2" cosmetic. The visuals would naturally tie in to your playstyle, though there should also be a system so that allows you to change the visuals to your preference.

 

[Squid Boss]

Firefall, back in the earliest CBT, was a skill based game. Very much so.

When PvE gear became part of the equation the PvP stopped being skill based. When you got recons with purple Sniper Rifles able to kill entire teams regardless of class as they come out of spawn simply because they did not have purple quality armor to survive being shot anywhere the game stops being about skill.

Pretty much the main form of progression should be towards community driven goals. Establishing that forward base in a dangerous hostile zone that has good resources, getting its defenses setup to withstand invasion assaults, getting the resources needed for a habitation field generator to push the wall forward and open up new areas to explore.

Player progression should be about widening your available arsenal.

Which is why the game wont have levels. There wont be a "level 34" cosmetic or a "level 2" cosmetic. The visuals would naturally tie in to your playstyle, though there should also be a system so that allows you to change the visuals to your preference.

The only trouble without power climb remains keeping the carrot at the end of the stick. Unlocking more and more sounds wonderful but the game has to evolve mechanically to provide something new. What happens when we unlock all? Will anything drop off in usefulness? Aren't we just progressing to new flashy things and leaving the old behind?

I don't think I have seen it happen yet. Not that it can't but it remains a problem to be solved.

I am curious how it will work out. How long can we play the field if it doesn't change enough or often enough? Will it be a game we play a few weeks and unlock new content just to wait for the next patch? What will my driving force be if what I have now is able to get the job done? What do I do now that the job has been done; the same thing over and over? What is changing?

Far too early to know but these are questions I hope to see answered.

 

[TankHunter678]

The only trouble without power climb remains keeping the carrot at the end of the stick. Unlocking more and more sounds wonderful but the game has to evolve mechanically to provide something new. What happens when we unlock all? Will anything drop off in usefulness? Aren't we just progressing to new flashy things and leaving the old behind?

I don't think I have seen it happen yet. Not that it can't but it remains a problem to be solved.

I am curious how it will work out. How long can we play the field if it doesn't change enough or often enough? Will it be a game we play a few weeks and unlock new content just to wait for the next patch? What will my driving force be if what I have now is able to get the job done? What do I do now that the job has been done; the same thing over and over? What is changing?

Far too early to know but these are questions I hope to see answered.

Ultimately it needs to come down to fun gameplay.

A game that is so fun its one of those that you can pick up and have a blast with whenever you want, however you want. Set a goal, pursue it. Feel like smashing things? Drop a THMPR and have at it. Want a big huge battle? Get your friends together and do a big THMPR drop next to the wall, where stronger creatures can appear to come attack. Want a challenge? See how far you can go and how long you last past the habitation bubble.

Up to this point we kinda are conditioned to needing some thing hanging over our heads to pursue, besides playing the game. That next level, that higher ilvl, running the raid to get this super rare piece of gear, the next chapter of the story. For a lot of people they cannot set their own goals. The game has to decide for them. People like that enter a game like minecraft and go "what now?"

And then you got people like the ones who are recreating Azeroth in minecraft. One block at a time.

 

[Beemann]

Some form of vertical progression is necessary in any MMO. Even Beta Firefall had it with Personal and Squad Thumpers. At some point farming for purple resources to get a tad bit more damage doesn't cut it. With expansions and new locations you can't keep making sidegrade variations of the same weapons and still have them be viable choices.

You're thinking of things in RPG terms, not necessarily MMO ones. Remember that MMORPGs aren't the only option for MMOs
Also I wouldnt use FireFall as a prime example as to why gear is needed to be compelling given that as the gear became more important, FireFall became less so to the average consumer

Pretty much the main form of progression should be towards community driven goals. Establishing that forward base in a dangerous hostile zone that has good resources, getting its defenses setup to withstand invasion assaults, getting the resources needed for a habitation field generator to push the wall forward and open up new areas to explore.

This a thousand times. Solo play for pioneering, group play for settlement and defense.
Also if you need further carrots, I've heard rare cosmetic drops, events, and customizable player housing work wonders. I mentioned this in FF, but I think a set of cosmetics that require certain actions to acquire (climb this tall-ass mountain, get to the center of the death swamp, kill this unique big mutant dude that only shows up in one of these particular places) would be cool to have. Don't tell people where they are either. Keep that level of discovery going. Get that Minecraft Alpha magic working for you

Wikis will attempt to kill it, but if it ain't *too* location based you could always change it up a little