#1
Could've put this in the thread about the suggestions for games to play until Ember is playable, but it needs a separate thread. Mainly because I'm pissed off about it.

So, I tried Blacklight Retribution and to my great disappointment, anger and annoyance, it played the same way as another game I've had the displeasure of trying, which was Metro: Conflict.

My problem was that there was no point in e.g.: equipping yourself with an anti-material or bolt-action rifle that had extremely low fire-rate, reload speed and slowed movement, because anyone with a lighter, plain assault rifle, modded or unmodded, could kill you with a head-shot, from long range and given their clip-size and fire-rate, there were even better suited for it than the weapons that were made for that purpose. Someone could spray a few bullets my way from a distance I couldn't even see them or needed more than a long second to make them out against the background, especially without a more than 2x-3x zoom scope. Some needed only 'one' shot, with assault rifle type weapon, from long distance, to kill. In Metro, any weapon could kill with one or two shots to the head and while it is realistic, yes, it became utterly ridiculous when someone, who had a character with dual Uzis, could just spray and mow everyone else down in their path without even having to pray.

What's the point of having gear built for a specific type of fighting if one can achieve the same effect with little to no modding of other weapons that aren't (or shouldn't be) suited for it. Rhetorical.

The only way I can see to avoid such...what I'd call...over-balancing, is to definitely introduce not only fall-off damage, but eventually, through modding, different effectiveness through widely differing effective-ranges. Sure, we'd be able to mod a weapon to have range between two points e.g.: mid to long range, but then, fall-off should enter into the picture to make sure that with e.g.: a high fire-rate, high clip-size weapon-build, one could not practically, accurately, reliably and effectively snipe from or beyond a certain range (long). If they want that, than they'd have to sacrifice significant fire-rate, clip-size and reload/rechamber speed, for starter. This ties back to the balancing of mods, of course.

There'd have to be a few different kind of mods for targeting and by that I mean (among additional HUD elements and overlays) mods that would essentially function as scopes with different magnifications, integrated into our mech and feeding data from our weapon-system. Now, I say "would essentially function like", because with a mech, how exactly would iron-sighting and scoping-in look and work? And that question will be for another thread.
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
777
1,557
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#2
As long as all projectile weapons utilize bullet drop then high RoF low velocity weapons will have a very different niche from high velocity low RoF weapons.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#3
That whole 'Bring the player, not the class' re-balancing thing they did in WoW was a bad idea, because it made classes far too generic (everyone had a self heal, an interrupt, crowd control and an AoE). Instead they should have made classes unique, but allowed players to play more than one, by not putting a massive grind-wall in front of people who don't just play a main (ie. garrisons).

Meanwhile I'm liking how in Warframe, I can build an entire loadout around wiping out masses of trash-mobs, or focusing on taking down the tougher priority targets (or using a balanced build that can handle several scenarios, just not quite as well).

What I'm trying to say is that there is little point in having modding to make a class/weapon better at one purpose than others, if for the sake of balancing yoe end up making everything capable of everything.

A sniper rifle should be excellent at hitting targets at long range. It should be completely unusable at short range (something so many games fail at, making sniper classes OP). If you want that, then you should have picked a shotgun or SMG, both inaccurate, but more suitable for close range.

Making any of those weapons usable outside of their niche, through overbalancing, removes any point in having a choice of weapons.
 
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#4
That whole 'Bring the player, not the class' re-balancing thing they did in WoW was a bad idea, because it made classes far too generic (everyone had a self heal, an interrupt, crowd control and an AoE). Instead they should have made classes unique, but allowed players to play more than one, by not putting a massive grind-wall in front of people who don't just play a main (ie. garrisons).

Meanwhile I'm liking how in Warframe, I can build an entire loadout around wiping out masses of trash-mobs, or focusing on taking down the tougher priority targets (or using a balanced build that can handle several scenarios, just not quite as well).

What I'm trying to say is that there is little point in having modding to make a class/weapon better at one purpose than others, if for the sake of balancing yoe end up making everything capable of everything.

A sniper rifle should be excellent at hitting targets at long range. It should be completely unusable at short range (something so many games fail at, making sniper classes OP). If you want that, then you should have picked a shotgun or SMG, both inaccurate, but more suitable for close range.

Making any of those weapons usable outside of their niche, through overbalancing, removes any point in having a choice of weapons.
Well, the idea is to not make everything capable of everything by making sure there is enough counter-balance to every bit of modding one does, so e.g.: a sniper build would have to rely on more than just their primary weapon and its primary function when engaged in close-quarter combat.
 

Vladplaya

Commander
Em-8er Contributor
Jul 27, 2016
169
259
63
USA
#5
Agghh Blacklight: Retribution is bad example for balance in its current state. It had changed hands between companies little over a year ago and it had a bad overhaul that seriously damaged the balance compared how it use to be in the past. Basically in a hurry the new studio brought PS4 balance values to PC version, effectively taking out recoil and therefore much of the depth from the game, making all weapons act like lasers and totally crippling point of customization as a lot of parts basically stopped been viable. Because you know, when all your weapons are lasers, all you want is accuracy and damage.
Anywho long story short, devs realized that the gameplay has suffered greatly, so they are working on major re balance patch for all weapons, armor and customization pieces.
I still would recommend people to try the game a it's pretty fun for a free to play shooter with its unique sci fi theme and classless gameplay and some other cool mechanics. But keep in mind that it is still been worked on and things should be improving in the near future.

Sorry for like hijacking thread for this but I have been playing Blacklight for a while now and it helps to know the history and reasons why things are the way they are.
 
Jul 27, 2016
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#6
Muzzel velocity and drag parameters?


Source.

Drag: F = 0.5* Density of air * (bullet speed Speed)^2 * Projectile drag coefficient * projectile cross section.
Damage would be proportional to F.
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
777
1,557
93
#7
Muzzel velocity and drag parameters?


Source.

Drag: F = 0.5* Density of air * (bullet speed Speed)^2 * Projectile drag coefficient * projectile cross section.
Damage would be proportional to F.
Basically, though the mass and shape/design of the projectile is also a key component.

F(orce)=M(ass)*A(acceleration)

Can't forget the ass after all!
 
Likes: Krhys
Aug 29, 2016
10
5
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#8
That whole 'Bring the player, not the class' re-balancing thing they did in WoW was a bad idea, because it made classes far too generic (everyone had a self heal, an interrupt, crowd control and an AoE). Instead they should have made classes unique, but allowed players to play more than one, by not putting a massive grind-wall in front of people who don't just play a main (ie. garrisons).
GW2 suffered from that as well, along with no reliable content (probably due to the market being dependent on cash-shop cosmetics). Shame too, I loved the way they handled exploration in that game (Theres a completion meter for each zone, where you could gain xp for handling events on the map, including requests, skill points, vistas, and waypoints/points of interest). It was a good alternative to grinding at the time, one I hope pops up in more MMOs.
 
#9
Agghh Blacklight: Retribution is bad example for balance in its current state. It had changed hands between companies little over a year ago and it had a bad overhaul that seriously damaged the balance compared how it use to be in the past. Basically in a hurry the new studio brought PS4 balance values to PC version, effectively taking out recoil and therefore much of the depth from the game, making all weapons act like lasers and totally crippling point of customization as a lot of parts basically stopped been viable. Because you know, when all your weapons are lasers, all you want is accuracy and damage.
Anywho long story short, devs realized that the gameplay has suffered greatly, so they are working on major re balance patch for all weapons, armor and customization pieces.
I still would recommend people to try the game a it's pretty fun for a free to play shooter with its unique sci fi theme and classless gameplay and some other cool mechanics. But keep in mind that it is still been worked on and things should be improving in the near future.

Sorry for like hijacking thread for this but I have been playing Blacklight for a while now and it helps to know the history and reasons why things are the way they are.
No problem. Now, I understand what the other players meant by PS4 porting of the game, when they said something went wrong and screwed up the very balance the game was praised for and why I tried it out. Damn it!

Another thing I disliked was that see-through-stuff vision. It only made it easier for already more experienced players to immediately snipe others as soon as they rounded a corner or something.

And the respawning location were just idiotic. I used that vision to look around and see no one behind me, then I ran a few yards and before I even made it to the next building I was gunned down from the back and often there wasn't only just one enemy player, but 2 or 3, who spawned behind me.

Shit like that should be avoided like the plague.
 

NitroMidgets

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jul 27, 2016
590
474
63
Dupont, WA
#10
I liked Blacklight when it was in dev. Then the dastardly dick of destiny violated that game like a drunk blonde at Bill Clintons hotel room.
Not the best game to get ruined in development but still it sucks to see them ruined at the very end.
 

Vladplaya

Commander
Em-8er Contributor
Jul 27, 2016
169
259
63
USA
#11
Another thing I disliked was that see-through-stuff vision. It only made it easier for already more experienced players to immediately snipe others as soon as they rounded a corner or something.

And the respawning location were just idiotic. I used that vision to look around and see no one behind me, then I ran a few yards and before I even made it to the next building I was gunned down from the back and often there wasn't only just one enemy player, but 2 or 3, who spawned behind me.

Shit like that should be avoided like the plague.
HRV (Hyper Reality Vision) is actually core mechanic of the game. Some people hate it, some people love it, but it does add a new twist to the standard shooter gameplay. I think it adds quite a bit of depth, as there are few machines that you can use to avoid been seeing in HRV. Furthermore it also funny when people start to rely on HRV so much that they get seriously spooked when you get close to them without then noticing you.
It's definitely something that takes skill to master and to use properly.

As far as shitty spawns, well, I have played very few games that haven't had that problem. It mostly depends on the map and the game mode though, if you are playing death match on a tiny map, you gonna have bad spawns no matter what you do.

But anyways, Blacklight has its positives and negatives, and it use to be much better, hopefully they will get that game up to speed again, sooner than later.

(Btw my in game name there is also Vladplaya, feel free to add me if you still play it :) )
 
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TankHunter678

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2016
369
311
63
#13
To be honest though an assault rifle outperforming a bolt action rifle is realistic. Bolt action rifles fell to the wayside in/post WW2 for a reason. The general purpose assault rifle has as good accuracy (at most ranges), with superior fire rate, was easier and faster to reload speed, and became a bit lighter as technology was developed and more focus was placed on its development. Not to mention both of them could use the same intensity in the scopes.

One could say that if a bolt action rifle outperformed an assault rifle its a case of overbalancing. Only case a bolt action rifle should be better is in a sniper role and operating at sniper ranges. As reload and fire rate are not that big of a concern then, stability and maximum range is.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#20
That whole 'Bring the player, not the class' re-balancing thing they did in WoW was a bad idea, because it made classes far too generic (everyone had a self heal, an interrupt, crowd control and an AoE). Instead they should have made classes unique, but allowed players to play more than one, by not putting a massive grind-wall in front of people who don't just play a main (ie. garrisons).
Actually, for what WoW is, that is a good idea. Being unable to perform an important task vs being able to perform the task did lead to players choosing to pick and lean on more heavily a specific class. If A can interrupt, aoe, and be good dps, why would you let B who can't interrupt, or aoe, but only do good dps, take a spot over A? You're only hurting if you can't manage to get class A.

Always remember people gravitate towards the fastest path of least resistance. Balancing acts are hard and take time but usually logic to some degree can prevent some things being OP or tuned improperly. I think how it'll be built over time will actually help us with defining weapons and their roles. Especially if weapons work like our Omniframe to some extent.