About melee weapons

Discussion in 'General Ember Discussion' started by DeDa4oK, Jul 1, 2017.

  1. DeDa4oK

    DeDa4oK Deepscanner

    I think that if you just fly into a bunch of enemies and start swing your melee weapon, then in 99% of cases you will just die. But if you do everything right (dodging, combining attacks with abilities, it may even be possible to parry or block the attack on the release of the game), then most likely you will leave the battle with full health.

    It all depends on how skilled you are.
    Torgue_Joey likes this.
  2. AdmiralStryker

    AdmiralStryker Firstclaimer

    While light frames may be able to do melee better than the others, keep in mind the lore states that Tsi-Hu are supposed to shred us in melee when in their beast forms.

    i think the lore contradicts itself here though, and that could use some clearing up.
    Dodging is possible, I agree. I think parrying will be reserved for heavy frames with their shields, though. I don't want to see swords and stuff blocking bullets, and especially not kaiju.
    Pandagnome likes this.
  3. DeDa4oK

    DeDa4oK Deepscanner

    I agree with you. This can be done so that the block uses the energy of the omniframe. And you will decide to use the block to save yourself from one sniper bullet, but after that you can not escape anywhere, or immediately use energy to escape for cover. Such situations will add variety to the game.
    Mahdi and Pandagnome like this.
  4. AdmiralStryker

    AdmiralStryker Firstclaimer

    I don't think it'll be a full block though. Look at Dreadnought(a game with a similar system)-you can switch power focus to drain your power but improve either offense, defense, or mobility. While studying to defense improves your defense a lot, it's not going to be a complete block, just mitigation.
  5. Sik San

    Sik San Deepscanner

    I can't see any contradiction. I doubt you will be able to walk through tsi-hu lines and cookie cut everything. So I suppose full melee is just another edgy way to show off your skill. Light frames supposed to be highly agile and fast. And fragile. So you can go full melee on a tsi-hu or a kaiju if you want to, but there is a huge chance you gonna be smashed like a bug.

    Also there might be some stealthing available for light frames, I suppose.
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  6. DeDa4oK

    DeDa4oK Deepscanner

    Just think how it can be amazing!
    On the map appeared a large Kaiju. Many players will go to battle with him. And here the fun begins.

    Heavy frames hold the aggression of the boss, at this time the medium frames protect the tanks from any small mobs, the light frames who preferred the melee fight are taken behind the boss's back and beat on his weak spots for which only melee damage deal the extra damage. Snipers shoots in the eyes. Medics and engineers supporting all classes. Then, when the "melee guys" destroy these weak spots, the boss opens up new weaknesses. And then another type of damage deals extra damage. So step by step, we destroy this monster who doesn't wear "Assless chaps". In battle with such bosses there should be a place for all types of players.

    I think that this will add more fun and challenge to the battle.
    Standing in one place and shooting in a couple of weak spots is not so interesting.
    To win over such a boss should be the well-coordinated work of all players(with any play style).
    That's what I want to see!
    Pandagnome likes this.
  7. Mahdi

    Mahdi THMPR Inbound - Gatestrider - Firstclaimer

    Though I am not sure about having threat generating moves for typical tanking, it would be nice to see some heavies absorbing front line aoe. Heavies aren't only shield holders though so opening perspective to heavy armament and moving away from the mmo trinity would be good for understanding Em-8ERs true strength as a unique game.

    I see other heavies with shoulder mounted mech warrior like PPC cannons or massive artillery laying waste to hordes of mobs and blasting through shields/armor of cat 4&5 kaiju.
  8. DeDa4oK

    DeDa4oK Deepscanner

    It's just an example. Of course, heavy frames will not only be like tanks, we also need a mass destroyers!!! :]
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  9. AdmiralStryker

    AdmiralStryker Firstclaimer

    This isn't TERA. We're going to be dodging gunfire, Tsi-Hu in melee, and the kaiju's hits when we fight a Kaiju. Melee can work there, but it's not going to be a constant stream of damage.
    Degiance and DeDa4oK like this.
  10. Pandagnome

    Pandagnome Well-Known Member Happy Kaiju

    hmm and i liked tera too :oops::D
  11. Sik San

    Sik San Deepscanner

    Man, it's 2K17 already, enough of that tank/healer bullshit. It's all about ebb and flow, not predefined roles and tactics. It's boooring!
  12. AdmiralStryker

    AdmiralStryker Firstclaimer

    Expanding on earlier:

    I do want to see melee having an edge vs a kaiju IF AND ONLY IF IT IS PLAYED RIGHT. Light frames are/should be faster than the big Kaiju. While it won't take much to kill a Light, they can dodge and use the Kaiju as a shield against the gunfire of its allies.

    That being said, I don't want that role stuff in the game. Healing can be done by a heavy-or tanking, or dpsing. Same for lights(evasion tanks are great). Same for mediums. Will certain frames be better at some things? Yes. Heavies are geared towards being in the thick of a fight.

    I also don't want to see melee become too strong, though. You should not be able to play the entire game with any one build. You should have to use a lot of guns and some melee to survive. Melee should not be completely viable unless you spec into it heavily. Early on though, we're all going to be using mostly gunplay. And throughout the game for the most part it should stay that way. The lore does state that the beast form Tsi-Hu charge us and rip us to shreds, disregarding our shielding. I think it's safe to say we shouldn't be going toe to toe with them in melee. If you want to go and wreck a humanoid one, that seems fine, but the kaiju and beast Tsi-Hu should always be stronger than us in melee if they're getting hits in.
    Degiance and PIghead Elderberry like this.
  13. Nalessa

    Nalessa Active Member

    It should be like the Heavy Arms from Gundam wing honestly.

    Tons of firepower, but only a small wristdagger for melee as emergency, or if you run out of ammo so you're not completely defenseless, but not the main weapon.
    PIghead Elderberry likes this.
  14. BunnyHunny

    BunnyHunny Deepscanner

    I would be all for an energy blade.
    I talked about how i think melee should work.
    Fast attack, high damage with knockback against smaller enemies, long cooldown.

    It would prevent "normal" melee from being used as main attack and would perfectly fill the role of the "oh shit" button.
    A high power energy blade would give a reasonable explanation for the speed, damage and cooldown of the attack.
  15. PIghead Elderberry

    PIghead Elderberry Active Member JUMBO KAIJU SLAYER

    I like the "Oh Shit" melee concept!
    AdmiralStryker likes this.
  16. BunnyHunny

    BunnyHunny Deepscanner

    Yeah that's how it works in quite a few other shooter games as well.
    But quite often, it is very overpowered (CoD --> 1 stab, 1 kill).

    In Planetside 2 for example,
    a quick melee attack only takes half of the HP of an enemy player. It works fine as "oh shit", because you can finish off an enemy that you have already reduced to half hp, but after stabbing with your knife, it takes a short time (something like half a second) until you can stab again or are able to continue shooting with your gun.

    If you want to 1 hit kill an enemy player with your knife, you need a special one and you have to put your gun away to actually wield it, making yourself vulnerable in case of ranged engagements.

    Of course, it is a bit different, because it is PvP and because of the smaller HP pool of targets.
    Anyway, i guess the example makes clear what i wanted to say.

    Most likely, some people would like to see the option to take melee weapons as primary in ember as well, but there are multiple reasons against that.
    One being the limited budged an other one being the (most likely) high HP pool of enemies and (most likely) strong melee attacks from their side.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    PIghead Elderberry likes this.
  17. PIghead Elderberry

    PIghead Elderberry Active Member JUMBO KAIJU SLAYER

    I think along the same line as you, but I also want to let other people use melee more than I might like to use it.

    Kind of like me as far as UI, I want the OPTION to turn off as much HUD/UI as possible. I want personally to not see visual clutter in the game. I also DO want others to be able to have as much HUD/UI as their screen can fit - if they want.

    The same is for me and melee. I have never found it very satisfying in most games. The big exception is in Dying Light and Dead Island where in both those you really truly had the feeling of hacking and chopping the enemies to bits and pieces.

    If we can see that kind of dismembering and visceral melee combat in Em-8ER, then you'll see me doing it plenty.

    If we have melee where you whirl a sword around and there is no "feeling" of hitting anything beyond just seeing some animation play out and the enemy health bar get smaller, then you won't see me doing melee.

    However, if someone else wants to melee the heck out of everything, and it doesn't make the game worse for me, I am fine with it.

    I am not sure where I stand on swapping melee to ranged and visa versa. If we can swap a sniper rifle for a side arm quick, then maybe we should just as quick swap a sniper rifle for a melee weapon. I would not to want to punish people for wanting to melee, but if it is in tune with swapping to another close range weapon like a side arm, then it makes sense to have delay - whatever that might be in game.

    I would like to see some kind of side-arm as a close quarters weapon in addition to edged weapons or bludgeons. I think a shot to the face point blank from a sawed off likely would hurt as much as getting hit with a fist melee weapon!
  18. BunnyHunny

    BunnyHunny Deepscanner

    How is that supposed to work in Ember?
    If there was instanced content, maybe.

    But in the open world... enemies are supposed to be strong enough to pose a thread to many players at the same time.
    Enemies can not simply fall to melee weapons, when they have to have big HP pools.

    When there is no vertical progression, everyone is supposed to be pretty much at the same power level, so you can not simply go into a low level zone and smack the shit out of weaklings, either.

    I really see melee main weapons as problematic in a game like what Ember is supposed to become.

    Guns should be better at dealing continuous damage, than melee weapons.
    Melee weapons should be better (than most guns) at dealing high instant damage.
    Without enemies, where a melee focus is useful, the satisfaction of melee maining would be missing.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    PIghead Elderberry likes this.
  19. AdmiralStryker

    AdmiralStryker Firstclaimer

    I like the "oh shit" melee concept. That's how it(initially) was designed in Firefall, that's how it should remain.
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  20. spiralofhope

    spiralofhope Deepscanner

    I think my feelings can be best summarized with the notion that melee is fine, but it *needs* to be "done right". Requiring skill, balanced, maybe cooldowns-based. For example, a melee instead of a leap-smash would be great for a heavy.

    It needs to be done right, so right that it would take away from development time of the nuances of gunplay. This is the heart of my problem with it.
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