Theory Crafting MMO Roles

[Col. Kernel]

True, but being DPS and tank in one, is already unbalanced. If one can soak up tons of punishment, it might be expected that they ought to be able to dish it out, of course, but it is not balanced, then. Tanks should have moderate or medium damage, at most. DPS characters, then, should be more fragile, but more mobile.

You're still playing like the trinity is important. It's not. It's been dead since 2004, though most people didn't realize it at the time.

Hybridization is important, but needs to be balanced.

Pure role classes (and each frame type is a class, or was in FF) are boring. They are a one trick pony and, with poor balancing (especially with crafting or other ability customization), can be very OP since they have nothing else to rely on. They're very easy to min/max.

For contrast, hybrid role classes are much harder to min/max if the devs have balanced them well. You need a large subset of your abilities to survive and it's much trickier to pick which facets are important for your survivability and which for your damage output.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Notes on classes can be found in these Q&As:

https://forums.emberthegame.com/threads/__.172/
http://thegg.net/interviews/interview-with-mark-kern-about-his-upcoming-mmo-game-ember/

The horizontal progression allows for "roles", and since it is $CURRENT_YEAR we don't need classes.

If you don't have different classes (i.e. frames with different capabilities) you don't have horizontal progression. You also don't have variety, and a lack of variety makes for a dull game, one that's not very entertaining.

The roles are a meta concept that classes are designed around.

I've listened to the Q&A. I've read the "transcription" of it. I'd like to go back and do a word for word transcription and combine that with some other Mark Kern thoughts on the game like the feature list from the Indiegogo page, and turn that into an FAQ since we don't seem to have one yet.

There's nothing about classes in the TGG interview. It's primarily about funding and advertising the game.

 

[Ronyn]

True, but being DPS and tank in one, is already unbalanced. If one can soak up tons of punishment, it might be expected that they ought to be able to dish it out, of course, but it is not balanced, then. Tanks should have moderate or medium damage, at most. DPS characters, then, should be more fragile, but more mobile.

That really depends on the game and genre. For example it is very common in mech games that the machines with high hit points/armor also have high damage output. The drawback is that they are usually quite slow and are big obvious targets. In contrast certain smaller, faster machines are often no better at direct damage output and are certainly not better equipped to take hits.

Another example would be certain tribes game where a slower, heavier suit with more hp would allow to carry more powerful weapons.

A games sense of class/role balance is highly Dependant on various things like primary objectives and enemy type design.

 

[MattHunX]

That really depends on the game and genre. For example it is very common in mech games that the machines with high hit points/armor also have high damage output. The drawback is that they are usually quite slow and are big obvious targets. In contrast certain smaller, faster machines are often no better at direct damage output and are certainly not better equipped to take hits.

Another example would be certain tribes game where a slower, heavier suit with more hp would allow to carry more powerful weapons.

A games sense of class/role balance is highly Dependant on various things like primary objectives and enemy type design.

Oh? Well, good point.

It's just that I'm often annoyed, particularly in FireFall, when I see bulkier frames having damage, durability and speed, all on their side. Even if the speed boosts are activated abilities that need cooldown. One might also say that because they're heavier, their boosters have more power to propel all that weight, but it still seems out of place.

 

[MattHunX]

You're still playing like the trinity is important. It's not. It's been dead since 2004, though most people didn't realize it at the time.

Hybridization is important, but needs to be balanced.

Pure role classes (and each frame type is a class, or was in FF) are boring. They are a one trick pony and, with poor balancing (especially with crafting or other ability customization), can be very OP since they have nothing else to rely on. They're very easy to min/max.

For contrast, hybrid role classes are much harder to min/max if the devs have balanced them well. You need a large subset of your abilities to survive and it's much trickier to pick which facets are important for your survivability and which for your damage output.

Sadly, FF seemed to have lost balance, if it ever had it to begin with.

 

[Col. Kernel]

Sadly, FF seemed to have lost balance, if it ever had it to begin with.

Beta is when balance is applied.

Sadly, the game was completely rewritten. I quit playing so I can't speak to whatever might or might not have been balanced.

 

[Ronyn]

Oh? Well, good point.

It's just that I'm often annoyed, particularly in FireFall, when I see bulkier frames having damage, durability and speed, all on their side. Even if the speed boosts are activated abilities that need cooldown. One might also say that because they're heavier, their boosters have more power to propel all that weight, but it still seems out of place.

Yeah I follow that. Firefall's "balance" in the later years wasn't solid IMO.
As my earlier post explained, I can see how there can be a frame that is high in both offense and defense, but that is not to say i felt firefall got that quite right.

 

[Aphaz]

Yeah I follow that. Firefall's "balance" in the later years wasn't solid IMO.
As my earlier post explained, I can see how there can be a frame that is high in both offense and defense, but that is not to say i felt firefall got that quite right.

it got worse in 1.6...with rhino having better AB than assault (with Charge and (rofl) Mighty Charge hkm)...lol

 

[Beemann]

Go back and reread. They do mediocre damage until they do their buff or debuff. Now not only do THEY benefit from their own de/buff but so does the rest of the team.

The individual player is not useless with de/buff skill, nor are they mandatory on a team. They do become a force multiplier and teams will want them.

They're still doing mediocre damage. If you do 2 damage and I do 10, but your buff is a x5 damage bonus, you're doing 10 and I'm doing 50. If it's a +5, you're doing 7 and I'm doing 15. Your damage is still mediocre in comparison, and you only exist in my team because of the buff or debuff. Your damage is, overall, less important than mine is. What this ultimately means is that the damage-first class is more valuable in larger numbers than the debuff-first class (unless debuffs stack, and they probably shouldn't if it's primary output. It'll be impossible to balance encounters around those numbers if they're in any way significant). A team of 4 DPS-first and 1 Debuff-first will be overall much more valuable than the inverse, whereas if both are Damage-first and one of them groups mobs up as a secondary function and the other debuffs, it is both more viable to take more debuffers (because their damage isn't adversely affected) and easier to balance stacking debuffs (because it's not their primary output) should such a thing become necessary for class viability

There were defined roles in Firefall because it included a competitive team based PvP that played out like other Team Based Action Shooters (at the time, TF2 later Overwatch).

Ember does not need defined roles until it gets its PvP, which will be segregated off from PvE. So there would be a series of Defined Role PvP Frames at which point Role Design becomes important.

That implies that other PVE-focused games don't have classes, but they do. Classes are not a PvP-based idea, and never have been. Trying to make character loadouts overly granular is an excellent idea if you want to create a lot of grind and noob-traps

 

[TankHunter678]

That implies that other PVE-focused games don't have classes, but they do. Classes are not a PvP-based idea, and never have been. Trying to make character loadouts overly granular is an excellent idea if you want to create a lot of grind and noob-traps

Ever heard of Path of Exile where classes do not exist and its all about highly customizable builds? Thanks to its diablo style base design and being a spiritual successor to Diablo 2.

MMOs in general for years have been following tried and true holy trinity formulas. Tank, Healer, DPS. Open world, Dungeons, Raids.

This MMO is not going that route, its going to be a open world sandbox with more in common with minecraft then typical MMOs. Why do we need to have classes?

 

[Beemann]

Ever heard of Path of Exile where classes do not exist and its all about highly customizable builds? Thanks to its diablo style base design and being a spiritual successor to Diablo 2.

MMOs in general for years have been following tried and true holy trinity formulas. Tank, Healer, DPS. Open world, Dungeons, Raids.

This MMO is not going that route, its going to be a open world sandbox with more in common with minecraft then typical MMOs. Why do we need to have classes?

How many of those builds are actually shit? How many options in those builds are objectively worse than others? I guarantee the answer is not 0. The more you try to cram concrete options into a game, the worse balance will get between those options. That's why, if you play pen and paper games, you'll notice more broken builds playing with splatbooks than playing without, as a general rule. The constant increase of options, whether in terms of linear progression or as the mythical "sidegrades" inevitably leads to systems where new players don't know what the hell is going on, and most players just run with cookie-cutter builds (thereby invalidating roles)

Additionally, Classes/Roles != holy trinity. Furthermore, from the sounds of things, the game WILL have classes/roles.

As far as the minecraft thing, no it wont. You seem to be under the impression that MMOs are always themeparks, when that isn't even remotely the case. Ultima, Wurm, Face of Mankind etc have player-driven experiences from both a PvP and PvE perpective

 

[Ronyn]

For what it's worth...
Classes or roles do not inherently have to mean the mmo trinity. There are many ways roles on the battlefield.

Also a modular/free build system does not mean that the equivalent of classes won't be available. And it certainly doesn't prevent building for certain specific combat roles.

 

[Boomshieko]

I'd like to see every "class" get skills that CAN be used for different classes.

E.g FF had Mammoth/Rhino Def/Off variants, respectively. I commonly used the Mammoth as a Tank first, Medic second. I used my Rhino as a Tank first, Gravity Support second.

I like the ability to use/level/master skills that allow for further adaption beyond a classes original purpose.

 

[Hybelkaninen]

Like it, but control need to be kept close to minimum if this is to be a skill based game.

Wouldn't really say that the Holy Trinity is obsolete, but yes...it needs to evolve beyond what it is now in most games.
Problem with removing the "HT" is that you can easily end up with a cluster***k such as Guild Wars 2.

Also, the thing about encouraging teaming...everyone/every class need to be able to fill every role...just one at the time...kinda like good ol' FF.

 

[CowedOffACliff]

Combat first class second role design and balancing would be the absolute bomb.

I love love love feeling like I can work with a team and throw in some support to my team mates. It provides a satisfying experience that makes you feel like what you did actually mattered.

I also hate hate hate feeling beholden to specific team members and their class roles like when your healer is under geared or your tank is inexperienced with an encounter. Relying on team mates in absolution forces really bad player ratios and makes the needlessly more tedious.

 

[spiralofhope]

I'd like to go back and do a word for word transcription and combine that with some other Mark Kern thoughts on the game like the feature list from the Indiegogo page, and turn that into an FAQ since we don't seem to have one yet.

I thought about doing a literal transcription. Although it's rough, check out the computer-generated transcription for that video. I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were tools to download it easily. I used to use one a while back.

 

[MattHunX]

Combat first class second role design and balancing would be the absolute bomb.

I love love love feeling like I can work with a team and throw in some support to my team mates. It provides a satisfying experience that makes you feel like what you did actually mattered.

I also hate hate hate feeling beholden to specific team members and their class roles like when your healer is under geared or your tank is inexperienced with an encounter. Relying on team mates in absolution forces really bad player ratios and makes the needlessly more tedious.

I'd also aim to eliminate elitism that seems to be common in such game. High-level or more experienced players shunning and outright dismissing certain classes or roles for lacking in a certain area (DPS, Shields, Durability...etc.).

 

[PCMasterReece]

I'd also aim to eliminate elitism that seems to be common in such game. High-level or more experienced players shunning and outright dismissing certain classes or roles for lacking in a certain area (DPS, Shields, Durability...etc.).

I second this, I used to hate seeing people say if you didn't have a high DPS you couldn't do Bane in 1.7 It got really frustrating. Just ultimately ruined that experience for me (even if the experience only lasted 10 seconds)

 

[MattHunX]

I second this, I used to hate seeing people say if you didn't have a high DPS you couldn't do Bane in 1.7 It got really frustrating. Just ultimately ruined that experience for me (even if the experience only lasted 10 seconds)

Oh, so that's how Overwatch plays?

 

[PCMasterReece]

Oh, so that's how Overwatch plays?

It's my signature (I know quite big, may remove it to just a link)