Alternative to 5v1: Players vs Kaiju PvP Twitter Post

[Thorp]

Twitter Post:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192598666445381632

The post is somewhat old now but here's my response.

I have my doubts that a 5v1 mode would be successful. Other games such as Evolve and Breach attempted this and for their own reasons failed to flourish. In general they all had their share of problems with spell balancing, player skill disparity, ...the usual. However this conundrum did get me thinking about an alternative approach.

We already know that Tsi-hu invasions will be controlled by AI server side. But hear me out, what if we could mix PvE with PvP by allowing a single player (or multiple players) to Top-Down control Tsi-hu invasions. (Similar to strategy games like Starcraft, Savage, Natural Selection, and most similarly to BattleSwarm.) Though the players will not be able to directly control the Tsi-hu in third-person or first-person, the players would have a blend of PvE and PvP with their strategic control of the Tsi-hu to defeat player bases. Ideally player controlled Tsi-hu would be strategically stronger adversaries. But of course what would stop players from intentionally throwing the game so the Tsi-hu lose? The incentive is to reward the Tsi-hu player with rare resources based on the damage they inflict.

Assuming players willingly volunteer to destroy other player bases with Tsi-hu what resources should be rewarded?

As with most MMOs there are dungeons/raids that reward players with resources that can't be obtained anywhere else. Of course the dungeons/raids are designed to be epic and amazing but it's impossible to make everyone happy. For the players who typically dislike dungeons/raids for whatever reason, the process becomes unpleasant or impossible to obtain these rare resources. This alternative game mode of allowing players to control Tsi-hu invasions would give at least one alternative option to obtain rare resources.

But we expect the human players to win against the Tsi-hu all the time. Why would a player join the Tsi-hu side just to regularly lose?

The rewards for winning and losing on the Tsi-hu side will need to be weighed. For the damage dealt the player should be rewarded accordingly regardless of winning or losing.

Okay but we human players are still going to win regularly; why join the losing side?

Just because a player "loses" doesn't mean it was not a fun attempt at winning. Any dungeon master should be familiar with the satisfaction of giving a real challenge to the players.

So where is the PvP? Where is my Kaiju first-person control?

A quick answer is if the enemy player can earn enough points during the invasion they should be allowed to "spend their points" on a Kaiju Prime (or any other grade level). The player can then either allow the AI to do their thing or take control of the Kaiju Prime directly.

 

[Wyntyr]

I'm in agreement that having a person, or people, being able to "take control" of the various Tsi-Hu/Kaiju in-game assets to keep players on their toes could be a good thing. I believe that would help the AI Warmaster a bit as Reapers get to know it's tactics thus adding a twist here and there to keep Reapers guessing. IMO though, if there were peeps controlling any of the AI baddies in Em.8ER, then i would rather they be part of Team Em.8ER. My thinking on this is that:

1. Peeps in that position will already have access to Dev tools.

2. Have more immediate access to other Team Em.8ER staff for bug fixes/tool or tactic tweaks/recommendations/etc.

3. Not typically be part of, or an instigator of, major trolling of the player base of the game by this mechanic.

4. If issues with #3 arise, then it can be handled internally away from the eyes of the player base without it causing any additional friction between various community factions/guilds that Team Em.8ER would have to then arbitrate. I.E. Team Em.8ER deals with the community feedback about said encounter, makes adjustments, and moves on v/s stepping in to deal with player on player or guild on guild issues regarding this mechanic.

 

[Maitrejibus]

For me,

5vs1 is a diverted form to satisfy PvP players who feel frustrated in a PvE game.

Some want more PvP, whereas it is absolutely not the envy of the game. But it is necessary to live well and thus to bend to certain economic necessities, to make join more the player.
it should then, not to let the other players, that ALL PvP or 5v1, win nothing !!!
Just a hobby between friends. Because otherwise it will form specialized teams (as in Firefall) which microphone interposed will be better than a group of unknown who can not organize.
Without GAINS then only those who want PvP can have fun just for fun.
If they seek in PvP gains or benefits they will be quickly disappointed and so much the better.

Eventually, to calculate a difficulty and thanks to this to make a blur between players for a 5v1 would be simply to give a coeficient diffculté and not a total number of points that decreases to kill the alien. Thanks to a coefficient if the player is level 5 and his buddy level 10 then both will have to shoot until they reach each one the 100% of the points of fire for having done his share of the work. So a big player can not do more than a small player and vice versa.
Not very clear, sorry, in addition to the translation I had to explain to the simplest.

 

[Pandagnome]

Lets say that a pvp expansion was made at a later point could we see the pvp on another planet/area?

I think in pvp you can either choose the tsi-hu or reaper team and there will be modes similar in firefall such as the jetball etc

Pvp rewards are rewards specifically for pvp they would not have anything to do with the pve.

So why would we pvp?
- Challenge friends / others casually
- Unique items for pvp mode only e.g. skins and new kaiju unlocks this does not apply in pve
- Experience the many types of kaiju in pvp & learn of their powers
- Bragging rights and competitions for reaper elites vs Kaiju primes (pvp events)
- cheaters will be eaten by kaijubot who enjoys the taste of cheaters and evil trolls
(if eaten by kaijubot too many times you will have a time out go to naughty corner for some time depending on how many times and what was done!)

A quick answer is if the enemy player can earn enough points during the invasion they should be allowed to "spend their points" on a Kaiju Prime (or any other grade level). The player can then either allow the AI to do their thing or take control of the Kaiju Prime directly.

perhaps a pvp specific invasion event only for pvp the pve will have their own event. Plus the A.I in pve can be updated and tweaked with randomised tactics perhaps.

I'm in agreement that having a person, or people, being able to "take control" of the various Tsi-Hu/Kaiju in-game assets to keep players on their toes could be a good thing. I believe that would help the AI Warmaster a bit as Reapers get to know it's tactics thus adding a twist here and there to keep Reapers guessing. IMO though, if there were peeps controlling any of the AI baddies in Em.8ER, then i would rather they be part of Team Em.8ER. My thinking on this is that:

1. Peeps in that position will already have access to Dev tools.

2. Have more immediate access to other Team Em.8ER staff for bug fixes/tool or tactic tweaks/recommendations/etc.

3. Not typically be part of, or an instigator of, major trolling of the player base of the game by this mechanic.

4. If issues with #3 arise, then it can be handled internally away from the eyes of the player base without it causing any additional friction between various community factions/guilds that Team Em.8ER would have to then arbitrate. I.E. Team Em.8ER deals with the community feedback about said encounter, makes adjustments, and moves on v/s stepping in to deal with player on player or guild on guild issues regarding this mechanic.

I like that those in Em8er team can do this however this could be for higher unlocked regions or special events.

Some want more PvP, whereas it is absolutely not the envy of the game. But it is necessary to live well and thus to bend to certain economic necessities, to make join more the player.
it should then, not to let the other players, that ALL PvP or 5v1, win nothing !!!
Just a hobby between friends. Because otherwise it will form specialized teams (as in Firefall) which microphone interposed will be better than a group of unknown who can not organize.
Without GAINS then only those who want PvP can have fun just for fun

If we separate the pvp and pve this could help i feel the focus is pve though. Having a future expansion pack optional could give those who want pvp to experience it and would not affect pve.

Pve should be the main focus for sure but could there be a pvp as long as the pve is done well and that pvp does not distract in the process of the pve.

Since this team is a small team but things could change if Team EM8er expands and then could have a dedicated pvp team working on that perhaps hmm

 

[ShiroRanger]

This is likely to end up failing badly much in the way that "Evolve" the video game did. First you need a player who "wants" to be the kaiju. 2nd they have to be decent/good at it or it'll be to easy for the other 5 players. More often than not the monster player sucked when I tried that game or in a rare exception was so freaking good it was game breaking unbalanced. I'd rather see it be a special weekend event where the Devs run rampant as the Kaiju against the players.

I'd rather see the Devs focus solely on the PvE and teamplay aspects before branching out and only keep other ideas as potential future concepts for the time being and not be distracted from the main focus of game play.

I also fear if PvP is implemented off the bat it will just become infected with aimbotters/hacking. Early this year I completely quit playing Planetside2 after years due to the infestation of ever increasing hacks,exploits,aimbots etc being abused with very little threat of being banned/kicked in that game and if they are banned they just make a new account rinse... repeat... They also allowed a 3rd party program known to be exploited for custom add-ons both good and bad such as aimbots. This 3rd party program was white listed every patch/update and whenever an update popped up and it wasn't yet whitelisted you noticed the difference in gameplay while that 3rd party program was unusable.

 

[Omnires]

I always loved asymmetrical combat in games when the mean focus of the game mode is just for fun and not something you have to do for rewards. And even if there are rewards you still get rewarded win or loss so as not to take away from the pure fun factor.

Sometimes playing as an overpowered character who is fighting against an group of other players is just fun even if you don't win. There one sci-fi game remember playing a long time ago that where I could play as a massive flagship that was about 3 times the size of a normal spaceship in the game with abilities that I wouldn't normal have. By main goal was just to survive as long as possible to capture key points on the planet while everyone else tried to stop me. They would win if they killed me and I would win if I would capture all the nods or if I could survive until the time limit was up having captured the most area of the map. By having asymmetrical PvP you don't have to relay on fighting to win because if you make each sides goal different too than it is possible for someone to win even if they avoid fighting. The most goals you give people with different paths to win the more fun the game mode becomes. Sure they could win by killing each other, but what if the other person doesn't want to fight than it becomes a game of hide-and-seek as they try to run out the clock. If people can change tactics and playing styles on the fly without being forces to only play in one way, than there is a lot of fun to be had.