Swimming in Em-8ER.

[Jag]

Good day all,

Today I raise the concept of swimming in Em-8ER. We all know, or those who played it, that you couldn't swim in Firefall. This is something that never bothered me, because you're in a heavy warframe which isnt the best for swimming, and although yes some of the lighter frames may be more effective in the water - it also wouldn't be good allowing some frames in the water while others drown..

I've seen this question bouncing around a couple of times but I haven't seen any deep discussion about it or any answers.
If this has been answered and I've missed it... my bad.

And it's not always just the problem of being waterproof.

Can you imagine the weight of an armoured mech, the person along with weapons, ammunitions and so forth? Now put that weight in the water considering that it has no air pressurisation, buoyancy or propellers to stay afloat, let alone move.

You could imagine using jets effectively for movement but that affects what kind of jets they could be, and realistically they would have to be powerful as it'd be a lot harder moving around in water than in air. Although that is maybe just thinking too much into it.

What I would like to see, would be the ability to swim when you jump out of your mech - but attempting to swim in your mech would result in drowing.. but that's just my opinion.

What do you guys think?

 

[Sik San]

First of all I doubt it's possible to swim in the water while average temperature is -96 C even without omniframe

 

[Jag]

First of all I doubt it's possible to swim in the water while average temperature is -96 C even without omniframe

Well yes, of course in those conditions, in which case it'd be all ice anyway.

We know that there will of course be terraforming meaning it wont be so cold all the time, meaning swimming is still a question.

 

[Sik San]

Well yes, of course in those conditions, in which case it'd be all ice anyway.

We know that there will of course be terraforming meaning it wont be so cold all the time, meaning swimming is still a question.

I don't mind swimming if it will be introduced for some purpose. Swimming just in the sake of swimming is a waste of time. Actually there not much high quality underwater content in games thesedays, but I'm not sure will it be suiting Ember right now.

 

[Jag]

I don't mind swimming if it will be introduced for some purpose. Swimming just in the sake of swimming is a waste of time. Actually there not much high quality underwater content in games thesedays, but I'm not sure will it be suiting Ember right now.

I think its more about realism and immersion rather than having mechanics and things to do underwater.

Would be weird being normal people not in mechs but everyone cant swim

 

[Sik San]

I think its more about realism and immersion rather than having mechanics and things to do underwater.

Would be weird being normal people not in mechs but everyone cant swim

Swimming with no purpose in a game is boring imo. Also, no time to chill out at the beach, tsi-hu are coming =)

 

[BunnyHunny]

You could imagine using jets effectively for movement [...] and realistically they would have to be powerful as it'd be a lot harder moving around in water than in air.

Have you ever tried to use swimming motions to propel yourself through the air?
If not, feel free to try it and share your results.

Or these tiny propellors that divers use underwater. Try to use them to fly.
Won't work.

As long as we are talking continuously propelled motion at relatively low speed without contact to the ground (which would be the case when using jets or anything comparable), that requires less power in water.


The only movements being harder underwater should be body movements, those where you push yourself off the ground (walking) and those where you are momentum-dependent.

 

[CriticalMichael]

Not to mention the more money that would have to go to paying animators for the swimming and drowning animations along with the level the designers for the environment. Especially when that money can go to something else like Rick Roll emotes.

Edit: Although! If money weren't an issue, apparently Archage (an MMORPG) has good underwater mechanics that might serve as an example.

 

[Jag]

Have you ever tried to use swimming motions to propel yourself through the air?
If not, feel free to try it and share your results.

Or these tiny propellors that divers use underwater. Try to use them to fly.
Won't work.

As long as we are talking continuously propelled motion at relatively low speed without contact to the ground (which would be the case when using jets or anything comparable), that requires less power in water.


The only movements being harder underwater should be body movements, those where you push yourself off the ground (walking) and those where you are momentum-dependent.

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make by saying you can't use swimming motions to fly... I didn't imply that you could or use any logic that would link the two. I simply said that not all the jets would work underwater as they do in the air, and water of course causes more kinetic resistance than air.

I also didn't at any point imply that we should use propellers to fly either - maybe thats what you meant, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure if you maybe misundetstood what I said, or if I misunderstood then my apologies in such case. Anyway, thanks for your input.

 

[BunnyHunny]

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make by saying you can't use swimming motions to fly... I didn't imply that you could or use any logic that would link the two. I simply said that not all the jets would work underwater as they do in the air, and water of course causes more kinetic resistance than air.

I also didn't at any point imply that we should use propellers to fly either - maybe thats what you meant, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure if you maybe misundetstood what I said, or if I misunderstood then my apologies in such case. Anyway, thanks for your input.

Look again at what you said (what i quoted earlier).

You said that the jets would have to be powerful, because moving through water is harder than through air.

I simply said that (while some movements -which i named- are harder under water, because of kinetic resistance) the movements which would be powered by jets, are easier under water than in the air and gave 2 examples (swimming motion and propellants) to show that this is the case.

 

[Jag]

Look again at what you said (what i quoted earlier).

You said that the jets would have to be powerful, because moving through water is harder than through air.

I simply gave 2 examples to show that this is not true.

Like i said, the movements that would be powered by jets are easier under water than in the air.

Well yes but its largely inaccurate to compare air jets in water... with flapping your arms in a swimming motion in an attempt to fly....

There is simply more drag in water and thats common knowledge, therefore more power is needed. Its also impossible to simply glide as you can in the air, meaning more constant power too. I also said that the type of jets that would be used would change - not all jet typed are submersible.

 

[BunnyHunny]

Well yes but its largely inaccurate to compare air jets in water... with flapping your arms in a swimming motion in an attempt to fly....

There is simply more drag in water and thats common knowledge, therefore more power is needed. Its also impossible to simply glide as you can in the air, meaning more constant power too. I also said that the type of jets that would be used would change - not all jet typed are submersible.

You still do not get it, do you?

Jets work by sucking stuff in at the front and pushing it out at the back, causing a forward motion.
So do propellers (basically).
The principle is the same in the air as in the water.

While resistance is obviously higher in the water (exponentially increasing with velocity), the force required to move something vertically in water is less than the force required to move something upward in air (up until a certain velocity is reached), because of the relative density of the object to move and because of the effectiveness of a jet/propeller in the medium.
Even horizontal movement through water (again, up to a relatively high velocity) requires less energy than through air (for the kind of weight and shape we are talking about).

Simply put, a swimming motion does the same as a jet/propeller.
You move the surrounding medium backwards in order to push yourself forward.

While swimming motion and small propellers (like used by divers) are enough to allow "flight" in water, they are not enough to allow flight in the air.

Your claim, that jets would have to be more powerful in order to propel a player through water, than to propel them through the air is therefore wrong (unless you specify that a certain -relatively high- velocity has to be reached).

Effective gliding is not possible with relatively small and heavy battle suits and has not too much to do with the required jet power, as long as you want to be able to take off vertically.

And yes, of course not all jets are fit to be used under water, but i guess that might not be a problem in a SCI-FI game.


Trust me, i'm an engineer(ing student).

 

[Jag]

You do realise the small propeller jets that they use for small velocities is a total different system than the jets we'd have on our mechs?

All you're doing is reinforcing my point that they would need to be different jets...

And I am afraid it is you who simply doesn't understand it. There is much more drag in water no matter the direction or speed. I'll just get the first link off google for you: https://www.quora.com/What-causes-objects-to-move-slower-in-water-than-air - it doesnt only apply when going a certain speed or a certain direction, yes they have an effect but not in the way you are thinking or that would be relevant here. In water you also need much more power to go in a straight line as water has far more drag and energy transferred rather than used purely for movement... not to mention the ability of gliding in the air, losing only slight height for continued horizontal movement meaning less power.

Either way as I said in the OP, that was more if I was thinking too far into the specifics which simply isn't needed.

Anyway, in the nicest way I could say this my friend, this doesn't seem to be going anywhere and I am happy to continue this with you in Discord or PMs, I just don't want this thread to be a one on one debate.

 

[BunnyHunny]

Ok... so even though i explained it to you, like i would explain it to a child, you still did not understand.

You seem to have no understanding about the matter, so i guess i will let it be.

 

[Jag]

Ok... so even though i explained it to you, like i would explain it to a child, you still did not understand.

You seem to have no understanding about the matter, so i guess i will let it be.

Well I would prefer it if we kept this from going into you just insulting me... I have tried my best to explain this to you, even providing links with facts about it but there we go. Not to mention that you edited your post after my reply..

Anyway in an attempt to keep this friendly, thank you very much either way for your input. I appreciate your replies and input.

 

[BunnyHunny]

Well I would prefer it if we kept this from going into you just insulting me... I have tried my best to explain this to you, even providing links with facts about it but there we go.

Thank you very much either way for your input. I appreciate your replies and input.

I am not insulting you.
I am simply stating the fact that you do not understand what i am talking about, even though i did explain, like i would have to a child.
If stating the fact, that you do not understand something, is insulting to you, that is your problem.


You provided a link, yes.

I myself already explained what the people in the linked posts say.

I also specifically said what kind of motion is harder in water and what kind of motion is not.
I explained why and even mentioned simple examples, to allow realizing that it is true, even without understanding the physics behind it.

They did not mention that and you completely ignored it. Gratulations to that.


If you still do not get it:
Throw something heavy in the water and try to pick it up (and elevate it within the water), then try to lift it out of the water.
You will notice that lifting something up in water is easier than in air (unless the surface/mass ratio is gigantic).

At low velocity, the resistance of water does not matter as much, as the relatively lower density of the object (while in the water) does.
This is also, why people who are too fat to walk, get to do water gymnastics.

 

[Jag]

I am not insulting you.
I am simply stating the fact that you do not understand what i am talking about, even though i did explain, like i would have to a child.
If stating the fact, that you do not understand something, is insulting to you, that is your problem.


You provided a link, yes.

I myself already explained what the people in the linked posts say.

I also specifically said what kind of motion is harder in water and what kind of motion is not. I explained why and even mentioned simple examples to show that it is true.

They did not mention that and you completely ignored that. Gratulations to that.

If you wish to continue this please just contact me on Discord or in PMs.

Cheers pal.

 

[BunnyHunny]

If you wish to continue this please just contact me on Discord or in PMs.

Cheers pal.

Yeah... I do not like wrong information on forums.
I already texted you on dc.

 

[Beith]

i would like to see swimmig in ember. it was annoying to drown in sometimes shallow water and die while im fighting or just walking around.
i dont care about if theres nothing to do but maybr only have swimming in shallow waters just for fun and the fact that you can move more freely but nothing too deep or big to mean that you would need game play for it?

 

[Jag]

I already texted you on dc.

Wonderful, thank you. I will read it!

EDIT: Glad we could talk and debate this in Discord in a friendly way Thank you.

i would like to see swimmig in ember. it was annoying to drown in sometimes shallow water and die while im fighting or just walking around.
i dont care about if theres nothing to do but maybr only have swimming in shallow waters just for fun and the fact that you can move more freely but nothing too deep or big to mean that you would need game play for it?

Yeah thats pretty much what I had in mind. This all depends on how deep the water is of course - as the mechs themselves will be rather large.