Some of the Top things that pushed me out of FF

Ronyn

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#81
You haven't figured out the tricky part of my scheme yet. Since the refinement and merchants are governed by NPCs they can artificially alter the stock market.
Kern and co can manipulate prices depending on fluctuations.
Look at it this way: certain content isn't being played enough as it doesn't bring in enough cash, lower the price a bit, BAM, more people will play that content. It's manipulative but it works.

It's all just theory crafting.
I'm familiar with that theory. I'd love to see some other game, somewhere do that someday. I have yet to run across one myself.

We'll se what ember turns out, but never ending war plus resource gathering without a direct goal, i don't have high hopes for it.
Wait. What? I never suggested that Em-8ER doesn't have direct goals for players to go after. In fact, I said that such things are needed and that I look forward to Grummz revealing more about what those goals are.

Unless Grummz tends to build new content every month. (same problem we ran into FF1.0)
If I am reading you right. It sounds like you are suggesting that permanent gear breakage slows the rate in which new content is needed, or that no other possible player goals are as capable of retaining player attention as permanent gear breakage. If so, I disagree on both points. I have explained why in previous posts.

OH, AND @Ronyn
ONE THING IS CONFUSING ME. OR PRECISELY. PISSING ME OFF.
THOSE BABBLES ABOUT XP AND LEVELS.... THE F*CK, THOUGHT WE ALL GONNA BE LIKE FOREVER LEVEL ONE NAPS. UNLOCKING OUR CRAPS THROUGH RESOURCES?

DID I F*CKING MISSED SOMETHING?
Ah. There will be some form of unlocks, and there will be some amount of vertical power gain.
Now, that doesn't necessarily answer whether there will be any form of XP system though. Some of this is still being decided on, though it may turn out that player power will all be related to resources collected and items crafted. realistically a lot of this will be better explained when Grummz reveals more info about it. For now I can't say much more than I have.
 

Sn0wfIak3

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#82
Wait. What? I never suggested that Em-8ER doesn't have direct goals for players to go after. In fact, I said that such things are needed and that I look forward to Grummz revealing more about what those goals are.


If I am reading you right. It sounds like you are suggesting that permanent gear breakage slows the rate in which new content is needed, or that no other possible player goals are as capable of retaining player attention as permanent gear breakage. If so, I disagree on both points. I have explained why in previous posts.
I'm not a game designer, nor do i claim to understand the grander plan. Just playing armchair dev here. It's just a concern of mine.

I do however promote that gear breakage or in my opinion a consumable based treadmill IS a damper on power creep. Powe rcreep is a treadmill, consumables is a treadmill. What's the difference between acquiring more levels or more wealth? Consumables can allow for temporarily power creep, imo, it's the best of both worlds. Both are just numbers going up. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Both make you feel superior as you grow.

Base building, horizontal progression, etc, take up a lot of time and resources. In the long run, they would be awesome but to say that they're easily implemented is selling it short. A consumable based regressive/progression system is relatively inexpensive. So at least in the short run, imo, it's the better option.



(GIFS, cause, i haven't done them in a while)

Your gear doesn't break, you don't have to repair it. You just have to refuel it and if you push it too far you have to replace the "gems" that power it. You'll never go weak, you just stop being able to go into overdrive until you replace your gems.

Compare it to going back to T3 (default mode). If you level high enough you can temporarily go up to T5, but it'll break faster. Your choice. Gem breaking becomes voluntary. Are you short on cash? Stay in default mode, have a little cash? Go super sayian. Have cash to spend, go full out. The choice is yours.

It is in no way different from potions in other games, you just upped the cool factor.
 
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Sn0wfIak3

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#83
All that i'm arguing for is a progression system that is fueled by consumables. There will still be a normal progression system but as you progress through that system you get to use more powerful, yet more expensive consumables.

Using the amount of power at any stage is voluntary. It's not because you're a max level that this means you have to use up all your power and break your gem. It's a choice. It'll depend on your willingness to use your full, or only a part of you power at that time. The difference will be noticeable but not enough to dwarf the commoners.

It's more like a "look how cool i am thing".



Regressive power-creep. The more powerful you become, the more it costs and the shorter it lasts. You can go SS3, but it will cost you a ton and only last for a minute. Break your gem and you go back to default mode, which isn't weak, just not OP.

It's all just theory crafting, but i have been putting a lot of thought into these ideas and i'm confident this type or any similar type of idea, should fix both power creep and a functional economy.
 
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Ronyn

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#85
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
It's not a matter of agreeing to disagree, it's a matter of understanding what is at play.

I do however promote that gear breakage or in my opinion a consumable based treadmill IS a damper on power creep. Power creep is a treadmill, consumables is a treadmill. What's the difference between acquiring more levels or more wealth? Consumables can allow for temporarily power creep, imo, it's the best of both worlds. Both are just numbers going up.
In this context, there is no difference between acquiring more levels and more wealth. They are just getting bigger numbers. But that is the wrong question. The difference we are looking at is between having a level of power (wealth/level) that could potentially be lost verses having a level of power (wealth/power) that you can only go up from. The difference is between something being temporary verses something being permanent.

Ask yourself the simple question: What is more interesting to the average player, getting something objectively better than what you currently have or keeping what you already have? I'd wager the answer is obvious. Which is more of an effective motivator? Again, I'd wager the answer is obvious.

Now let's clarify a few terms along with their the cause and effect here.
Gear breakage is when the gear you wear breaks and cannot be repaired, forcing you to acquire new gear.
Forced obsolescence is when you acquire new gear that is objectively better than your old gear so you have no reason to keep old gear.
Both are systems of acquiring new gear.

Ok. From an economic model perspective, both gear breakage and forced obsolescence of gear can be used as a reason for players-to-keep-chasing-gear mechanically. Gear breakage is effective at keeping the economy moving properly going but not really effective at keeping players interested in actually doing it (I.E. motivation to log in and play the game). Forced obsolescence is not really effective at keeping the economy moving properly (I.E. leads to hyper inflation) but is generally effective at keeping players interested in actually doing it. Ultimately, these two things solve different problems. They do not supplant each other.

That is why when red 5 added in gear decay (to serve the economy) they were still planning on raising the vertical power ceiling(to serve player motivation). That is why in Fortnight there is gear decay/breakage (to serve the economy), but still a lot of vertical progression(to serve player motivation). On the other hand, this is why in countless mmo games with just forced obsolesce they still end up with hyper inflation.

Understand that if you add gear breakage you do so primarily for the economy, not for player motivation.
Understand that if you add vertical progression you do so for primarily player motivation, not for the economy.

To be clear, I'm not arguing against using the "best of both worlds" at all, I'm making it clear what function each mechanic serves.

Last point-
Vertical progression and Power creep are not synonyms, and the former doesn't inherently lead to the latter.
Power creep is when the player's new power makes earlier content irrelevant. I see how that may seem like vertical progression inherent leads to that. It can, it often does, but it doesn't have to. Thing is, if the game includes a scaling system that allows lower level areas to retain their challenge and it ensures that the rewards in those early levels are worth acquiring even to high level players, those early levels do not become irrelevant. By definition, while there has been vertical progression there has still been no "power creep", because no areas have become irrelevant.

Note, a game can have gear breakage and still have power creep. Example: fortnight. Gear breaks, but because the materials from the earlier levels are no longer needed for the high level recipes, there is no reason to go to the early levels.
Alternatively, a game can have no gear breakage yet not really have power creep. Destiny has no gear breakage. But they have a scaling system so no matter how strong you get, low level enemies can still kill you and there are some basic resources found everywhere that still hold use to level up even the highest quality weapons. Old, obsoleted gear can be dismantled for useful components. Plus the "dungeons" have hard modes keeping them relevant. Power creep, of a sort, only comes into play for the pursuit of the very last few points of power.

It's important to understand what does what, and not accidentally equate the solution to one problem with the solution to another.

All that i'm arguing for is a progression system that is fueled by consumables. There will still be a normal progression system but as you progress through that system you get to use more powerful, yet more expensive consumables.

Using the amount of power at any stage is voluntary. It's not because you're a max level that this means you have to use up all your power and break your gem. It's a choice. It'll depend on your willingness to use your full, or only a part of you power at that time. The difference will be noticeable but not enough to dwarf the commoners.

It's more like a "look how cool i am thing".

Regressive power-creep. The more powerful you become, the more it costs and the shorter it lasts. You can go SS3, but it will cost you a ton and only last for a minute. Break your gem and you go back to default mode, which isn't weak, just not OP.

It's all just theory crafting, but i have been putting a lot of thought into these ideas and i'm confident this type or any similar type of idea, should fix both power creep and a functional economy.
There is a lot of merit in this specific idea. I want to say again, on a battlefield where there is more than just what the player wears and/or carries, there is more to spend resources on than just what the player wears and/or carries.
That in mind, in a very tangible sense, having to call in the right vehicle at the right time serves a very similar function to what you describe. Is a tank not a consumable if it can be destroyed? Does the consumable have to be on the player as worn and/or carried gear to have the right impact on the economy? Imagine that you have many things at your finger tips....and the various costs associated with using them. This is what a massive planetary wargame brings to bear.
 

Torgue_Joey

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#86
Now let's clarify a few terms along with their the cause and effect here.
Gear breakage is when the gear you wear breaks and cannot be repaired, forcing you to acquire new gear.
after every battle. no, come here and listen to me, AFTER EVERY F*CKING BATTLE.
REBUILD:
Frame, Tank, Heli, Plane, Car, Quads, Bike, Hover board, more Tanks, Roller blades, Lada, the other Tank, Scooter, Abs roller

WHAT IS THIS SH*T?
ENGINEER-WASTE-YOUR-F*CKING-TIME-SIMULATOR?

There is a lot of merit in this specific idea. I want to say again, on a battlefield where there is more than just what the player wears and/or carries, there is more to spend resources on than just what the player wears and/or carries.
That in mind, in a very tangible sense, having to call in the right vehicle at the right time serves a very similar function to what you describe. Is a tank not a consumable if it can be destroyed? Does the consumable have to be on the player as worn and/or carried gear to have the right impact on the economy? Imagine that you have many things at your finger tips....and the various costs associated with using them. This is what a massive planetary wargame brings to bear.
there's a tactic/strategy/stunt (or what ever ye wanna call it) I had in MY F*CKIN MIND long ago.
Frame is down at 30%, call in air drop for my tank, fight till tank arrives and till frame drop to 0%
as soon frame get "unsummoned" hop into tank and continue the battle.
 

Ronyn

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#87
after every battle. no, come here and listen to me, AFTER EVERY F*CKING BATTLE.
REBUILD:
Frame, Tank, Heli, Plane, Car, Quads, Bike, Hover board, more Tanks, Roller blades, Lada, the other Tank, Scooter, Abs roller

WHAT IS THIS SH*T?
ENGINEER-WASTE-YOUR-F*CKING-TIME-SIMULATOR?
lol. You crack me up.
No matter what kind of stuff can be destroyed, there is a way to make it feel reasonable or unreasonable.
We definitely don't want it to feel like you're focused more on cost to gain ratio than actually fighting the battle.

there's a tactic/strategy/stunt (or what ever ye wanna call it) I had in MY F*CKIN MIND long ago.
Frame is down at 30%, call in air drop for my tank, fight till tank arrives and till frame drop to 0%
as soon frame get "unsummoned" hop into tank and continue the battle.
We arent looking at having destroyable frames, but I imagine something similar to what you suggest could happen in a certain sense.
 

Sn0wfIak3

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Jul 27, 2016
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#88
It's not a matter of agreeing to disagree, it's a matter of understanding what is at play.

In this context, there is no difference between acquiring more levels and more wealth. They are just getting bigger numbers. But that is the wrong question. The difference we are looking at is between having a level of power (wealth/level) that could potentially be lost verses having a level of power (wealth/power) that you can only go up from. The difference is between something being temporary verses something being permanent.

Ask yourself the simple question: What is more interesting to the average player, getting something objectively better than what you currently have or keeping what you already have? I'd wager the answer is obvious. Which is more of an effective motivator? Again, I'd wager the answer is obvious.

Now let's clarify a few terms along with their the cause and effect here.
Gear breakage is when the gear you wear breaks and cannot be repaired, forcing you to acquire new gear.
Forced obsolescence is when you acquire new gear that is objectively better than your old gear so you have no reason to keep old gear.
Both are systems of acquiring new gear.

Ok. From an economic model perspective, both gear breakage and forced obsolescence of gear can be used as a reason for players-to-keep-chasing-gear mechanically. Gear breakage is effective at keeping the economy moving properly going but not really effective at keeping players interested in actually doing it (I.E. motivation to log in and play the game). Forced obsolescence is not really effective at keeping the economy moving properly (I.E. leads to hyper inflation) but is generally effective at keeping players interested in actually doing it. Ultimately, these two things solve different problems. They do not supplant each other.

That is why when red 5 added in gear decay (to serve the economy) they were still planning on raising the vertical power ceiling(to serve player motivation). That is why in Fortnight there is gear decay/breakage (to serve the economy), but still a lot of vertical progression(to serve player motivation). On the other hand, this is why in countless mmo games with just forced obsolesce they still end up with hyper inflation.

Understand that if you add gear breakage you do so primarily for the economy, not for player motivation.
Understand that if you add vertical progression you do so for primarily player motivation, not for the economy.

To be clear, I'm not arguing against using the "best of both worlds" at all, I'm making it clear what function each mechanic serves.

Last point-
Vertical progression and Power creep are not synonyms, and the former doesn't inherently lead to the latter.
Power creep is when the player's new power makes earlier content irrelevant. I see how that may seem like vertical progression inherent leads to that. It can, it often does, but it doesn't have to. Thing is, if the game includes a scaling system that allows lower level areas to retain their challenge and it ensures that the rewards in those early levels are worth acquiring even to high level players, those early levels do not become irrelevant. By definition, while there has been vertical progression there has still been no "power creep", because no areas have become irrelevant.

Note, a game can have gear breakage and still have power creep. Example: fortnight. Gear breaks, but because the materials from the earlier levels are no longer needed for the high level recipes, there is no reason to go to the early levels.
Alternatively, a game can have no gear breakage yet not really have power creep. Destiny has no gear breakage. But they have a scaling system so no matter how strong you get, low level enemies can still kill you and there are some basic resources found everywhere that still hold use to level up even the highest quality weapons. Old, obsoleted gear can be dismantled for useful components. Plus the "dungeons" have hard modes keeping them relevant. Power creep, of a sort, only comes into play for the pursuit of the very last few points of power.

It's important to understand what does what, and not accidentally equate the solution to one problem with the solution to another
Honestly Ronin, i was willing to meet you half way. THEY'RE MECHANICALLY THE SAME THING!!!!

LEVEL INCREASE= NUMBERS GO UP.

WEALTH INCREASE= NUMBERS GO UP.

If you don't want to loose your wealth, be a cheapskate... Problem solved.

Nobody on the forum got a blue border for leveling up, they did however get a blue border for donating the most wealth though. There's your evidence that wealth equals power.

The only difference is in your head. But on a mechanical level, they're the same thing.

It's indeed not a matter of agreeing to disagree, you just want to win an argument.

(plus i i didn't have my morning coffee so excuse me if i'm a little cranky and my brain isn't function as it should yet.
 
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Torgue_Joey

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#89
LEVEL INCREASE= NUMBERS GO UP.

WEALTH INCREASE= NUMBERS GO UP.
FIXED:

LEVEL INCREASE = STATS GO UP (EXP: 200 DMG -> 280 DMG)

WEALTH INCREASE = RICHNESS GO UP (EXP: 300 RESOURCES -> 800 RESOURCES)

I DON'T MAKE 3K DMG WHEN I HAVE 5K RESOURCES IN MY POCKET
 

Sn0wfIak3

Active Member
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#90
FIXED:

LEVEL INCREASE = STATS GO UP (EXP: 200 DMG -> 280 DMG)

WEALTH INCREASE = RICHNESS GO UP (EXP: 300 RESOURCES -> 800 RESOURCES)

I DON'T MAKE 3K DMG WHEN I HAVE 5K RESOURCES IN MY POCKET
Hence my suggestion for a consumable based progression system.

It's a compromise, not a perfect solution.
 

Sn0wfIak3

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#91
A permanent progression system that allows for regressive temporary extra power is the best i could come up with for now. It's not perfect (meaning you only get to keep part of your power continuously but it's the best i can come up with that, as long as everyone is willing to compromise, would fix multiple issues at once)

People are obsessed with the power fantasy, people want to make lots of ig cash. Honestly, if you got a better idea, i would love to hear it. I'm all open to suggestions.
 

Ronyn

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#92
Honestly Ronin, i was willing to meet you half way. THEY'RE MECHANICALLY THE SAME THING!!!!
LEVEL INCREASE= NUMBERS GO UP.
WEALTH INCREASE= NUMBERS GO UP.
But we didn't disagree on that.
In this context, there is no difference between acquiring more levels and more wealth. They are just getting bigger numbers.
See what I mean?


Hence my suggestion for a consumable based progression system.
Which I have said, more than once, that was a good idea worth looking into. Moreover I suggested that what we are doing in Em-8ER with things like vehicles is a consumable system of a sort. Which, I believe, does something very similar to your suggestion.
Throughout that post I clarified the terms in use, I straightened the cause and effect, I rephrased some of the issue...
yet I never actuality shot down the essence of your idea. Because, again, I like the essence of your idea and I think it has merit.

A permanent progression system that allows for regressive temporary extra power is the best i could come up with for now.
Isn't calling in a tank, that can be destroyed, regressive temporary extra power?

It's indeed not a matter of agreeing to disagree, you just want to win an argument.
(plus i i didn't have my morning coffee so excuse me if i'm a little cranky and my brain isn't function as it should yet.
At any rate, If that is how you feel about my interaction here, I will simply bow out of the conversation.
 

Sn0wfIak3

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#93
At any rate, If that is how you feel about my interaction here, I will simply bow out of the conversation.
You're right, it's probably me. People love potions, people love enchantments. The only suggestion i made is combining them into a progression system. No gear breakage, no gear repair.

Again, morning coffee, little cranky.
 

Ronyn

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#94
You're right, it's probably me. People love potions, people love enchantments. The only suggestion i made is combining them into a progression system. No gear breakage, no gear repair.

Again, morning coffee, little cranky.
I always thought you were pretty cool man. I think you have some fascinating game related ideas. I only seek to help out with some of the details because I feel you have real potential. Also, you have a ton of passion about this stuff. That is definitely needed.
 

Torgue_Joey

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#95
MY BRAIN! IT'S. MELTING. GAAAAAAAAH

agree with @Sn0wfIak3 GOING FULL NUKE with minimal cooldown on my rocket pods for 2 minutes, EVEN IF IT COST HALF OF MY MONTHLY RESOURCES. why not, sure gonna be fun as hell.

agree with @Ronyn, WHY GIVE MY LOVELY SYBIAN ELECTRICAL STEROID. IF I CAN SIMPLY CALL IN MY BIG ASS TANK.
BLAST THOSE BLOODY RABBITS ON MY DINNER PLATE. AND CRUNCH THE OTHER RABBITS INTO SOUPS.

GIVE ME
DOUBLE NUKEGASM! TO THE MAX!

(PS: I VOTE REPAIRS OVER PERMA BREAK)
 
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Sn0wfIak3

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#96
I always thought you were pretty cool man. I think you have some fascinating game related ideas. I only seek to help out with some of the details because I feel you have real potential. Also, you have a ton of passion about this stuff. That is definitely needed.
Thank you. I still disagree on your point that no form of item degradation or consumables work as a damper on power creep. Especially if they provide you with a temporary powerboost that increases in power and cost, as you increase in levels.



This isn't supposed to be a game where you keep getting more and more powerful, especially not in the traditional sense. Otherwise you end up with "powercreep".
 
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Ronyn

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#97
I still disagree on your point that no form of item degradation or consumables work as a damper on power creep.
That's not exactly what I said. It's more that item degradation does not inherently damper power creep, as it depends on how it is applied. It's also that power creep can be dampened other ways as well. Ultimately, the goal is to keep all areas of the game relevant to the player. If that is achieved, by whatever means, power creep is averted.

Hmm. Let me try this a different way. How do you define power creep?
 

Sn0wfIak3

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#98
Let me try this a different way. How do you define power creep?
To me power creep is, always wanting to get more powerful in the traditional sense where numbers keep going up in pure DMG and HP. It's a never ending cycle. I get more HP and DMG, baddies get more HP and DMG. I can always go back to lower areas and face stomp lower baddies but it's just god mode.

One way of fixing this is scaling but imo, this is an insult to gamers. Also keep in mind that i no longer suport item decay. Regressive progression tm, trademark pending.
 

Ronyn

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This isn't supposed to be a game where you keep getting more and more powerful, especially not in the traditional sense. Otherwise you end up with "powercreep".
Even in games where you only get so much stronger than you started, early levels can still be made irrelevant. Is that not still power creep?

To me power creep is, always wanting to get more powerful in the traditional sense where numbers keep going up in pure DMG and HP. It's a never ending cycle. I get more HP and DMG, baddies get more HP and DMG. I can always go back to lower areas and face stomp lower baddies but it's just god mode.
What exactly would be wrong with getting stronger and stronger unless it makes old content useless and/or too easy?

One way of fixing this is scaling but imo, this is an insult to gamers.
Why is scaling an insult to gamers?