Keeping the science in sci-fi

[Omnires]

Yes we could go with infinite ammo and no reload, but what would happen?

Would you care to stop shooting if enemy is hiding or not in line of sight right now?
Would you care to save your ammo (for next bigger wave of enemies)?
Definetely you would lost one of balance function for powerfull weapons, which otherwise would have longer reload time or smaller magazine size.​

So my opinion is that some gameplay mechanics are there (like reload), because they are essential for balanced and challenging gameplay.

Well truth is I was thinking more about NPCs when I started the unlimited ammo idea. When was the last time you played a game where the NPCs ran out of ammo or needed to reload? But as I started to think about it more there would be no logical reason players couldn't also do the same thing, as long as it made some logical sense.

Also one of the easy and simple ways some games get around giving players unlimited ammo with no reloads is by having guns do things like overheat. If the gun is fired to much to fast it'll build up heat within the system. When the heat gets to high the gun will go into a forced cool down state as a way to protect itself. This means players having balance how fast they fire against how much heat is building up in the gun. And heat buildup effects both energy weapons and solid ammo weapons.

 

[Pandagnome]

The speed of the printing and teleporting could be tweaked depending on the gun type
so that if it was a heavier weapon with more POW it would take longer than say a smaller weapon.

Not forgetting the quantity of ammo too you could sacrifice ammo quality for faster ammo construction
so higher quality ammo would have better stats but take longer to be remade than cheaper quality that can be spammed
more with reduced dps or whatever stat it might have but just take a lot more ammo to eliminate a target

 

[Omnires]

The speed of the printing and teleporting could be tweaked depending on the gun type
so that if it was a heavier weapon with more POW it would take longer than say a smaller weapon.

Not forgetting the quantity of ammo too you could sacrifice ammo quality for faster ammo construction
so higher quality ammo would have better stats but take longer to be remade than cheaper quality that can be spammed
more with reduced dps or whatever stat it might have but just take a lot more ammo to eliminate a target

It would be like the difference between using ammo made out of led vs ammo made of titanium vs ammo made out depleted uranium. You can have solid ammo guns use different type of ammo with stats of the ammo being changed based on what it is made of.

This why you can also make status effect ammo. For example, making ammo out of something that is radioactive it could add something like a radiation sickness effect to enemies.

 

[phoenix]

What if you could scavenge or retake certain materials from say a special port to be able to recycle and manufacture
various ammo type. These materials can be found e.g. in a rubble of trash, a dead npc, construction yards, research facilities, dead opponent in pvp etc

Add that with the teleport / pocket dimension idea of how we change weapons. And you can have guns with unlimited ammo.

Or you know. Use enemies weapons against them. Use weapons that use the same munition as the enemy and simply kill and loot the enemy.

 

[TankHunter678]

In Borderlands 2/Pre-Sequel there is a company that makes guns you cannot reload. Instead you throw the gun and it self destructs like a grenade (more damage the more ammo was left in the mag) and a entirely new gun was digistructed into your hand to be used.

The design behind that company was to basically be the "walmart of guns". Cheap and disposable.

 

[DARKB1KE]

is there a particular reason why you want things to remain "grounded" by science? or is it more of a preference for realism?

I am just curious about your opinion.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Also one of the easy and simple ways some games get around giving players unlimited ammo with no reloads is by having guns do things like overheat. If the gun is fired to much to fast it'll build up heat within the system. When the heat gets to high the gun will go into a forced cool down state as a way to protect itself. This means players having balance how fast they fire against how much heat is building up in the gun. And heat buildup effects both energy weapons and solid ammo weapons.

Yeah, such weapons would be very welcome (not for all weapons, but for some )

In Borderlands 2/Pre-Sequel there is a company that makes guns you cannot reload. Instead you throw the gun and it self destructs like a grenade (more damage the more ammo was left in the mag) and a entirely new gun was digistructed into your hand to be used.

The design behind that company was to basically be the "walmart of guns". Cheap and disposable.

It would be very funny, not permanently in game but like event it is great idea. Just imagine you would log in and instead of reload you would throw your empty weapon on enemy with "Booom" effect and new weapon would appear in your hands. Those faces of players, priceless xD (and with funny comment from your ingame character of course as you throw them xD "...eat it! you piece of red alien", "wanna eat? I give you some!", "lets face my new weapons", ...)

 

[TankHunter678]

It would be very funny, not permanently in game but like event it is great idea. Just imagine you would log in and instead of reload you would throw your empty weapon on enemy with "Booom" effect and new weapon would appear in your hands. Those faces of players, priceless xD (and with funny comment from your ingame character of course as you throw them xD "...eat it! you piece of red alien", "wanna eat? I give you some!", "lets face my new weapons", ...)

No, the reason I never really used the weapons was precisely because of the grenade effect. In enclosed areas you spent as much time blowing yourself up as you did the enemy.

It was also a horrid waste of ammo that preyed on any habits built up from using other manufacturer's weapons, which typically were to reload often to always have a full clip ready for the next firefight.

On a earlier topic however...

Infinite ammo works, as the technology can be there to manufacture basic ammunition from breaking down common materials into mass and then printing said mass into the form of a bullet or going the Mass Effect route of shaving off a piece of material and firing it at such velocity that it impacts with enough force equal to an explosive several times the size of the fragment.

No reload in the form of teleporting the munitions into the gun would not work. Due to the sheer energy requirements that would honestly be beyond the reactors output capabilities and still operate at a safe for humans output level. Or even at a size that could be mech portable.

 

[Omnires]

is there a particular reason why you want things to remain "grounded" by science? or is it more of a preference for realism?

I am just curious about your opinion.

I'm just a sci-fi who likes there to be at least some real science in the stories because it adds to the immersion. Also this will help get my feelings across.

On a earlier topic however...

Infinite ammo works, as the technology can be there to manufacture basic ammunition from breaking down common materials into mass and then printing said mass into the form of a bullet or going the Mass Effect route of shaving off a piece of material and firing it at such velocity that it impacts with enough force equal to an explosive several times the size of the fragment.

No reload in the form of teleporting the munitions into the gun would not work. Due to the sheer energy requirements that would honestly be beyond the reactors output capabilities and still operate at a safe for humans output level. Or even at a size that could be mech portable.

You, have of points there. But you can have one side energy output for portals. So you can have a massive device inside a safe place (like a warehouse in a military base) that is both powering the portals and giving you the items you want. If it is a large base with a spaceship power reactor it could open and many portals at once and supply many different people things at once.

There is problems with this idea. Like what if they give you the wrong items or they have to close the portals for maintenance on the device (so you can't change weapons or get more ammo that way). But you can also make that part of the story. Like what if the aliens find out where all the teleported stuff goes and try to act that place.

 

[MattHunX]

The idea is to add more options in combat both to do extra damage and to take less damage if you do things right. The science of combat is a real, you need a know how a bit of physics, biology, and material science.

So, me doing something like spinning and flipping around with a polearm before landing my attack is not just for show. I'm trying to build up as much momentum as possible to add greater force to my attack.

A person who is always being pushed around and is falling over a lot with each hit might not be falling because they are weak, but because they know how to avoid taking damage. “The green reed which bends in the wind is stronger than the mighty oak which breaks in a storm.” In other words, it is better to bend with the force than it is to break trying to resist it.

I checked out an Alpha gameplay footage from that Project Genom game someone gave a link to.

And while it is very very early stage, I already saw something rather remarkable and unexpected and yet simple.

When the character runs and shoots, if they're running away from their target, the character turns their head back, pulls up one arm, if they're with a pistol or a weapon that can be fired with one arm, and they keep shooting like that. If they don't completely turn towards an enemy, they turn from the waist and aim down at some critter nipping at their leg. Never saw anything like that before. And it's something so simple.

Also, they got halberds in the game, so he pole-arm thing reminded me of that. Would be cool to have more melee weapons and they could take cues from other games, allow the players to dual wield certain weapons that aren't heavy.

And while I completely agree they should make moves and combos be more than just theatrics, I imagine it could only imagine that being done by, say, giving a spinning, flipping..etc. attack or combo or the ability an effect that would say "Enemy Accuracy -50% while performing move" or "Dodge + some % while performing". That seems like the simplest way to do it, because I think it would be extremely difficult to introduce some potentially ground-breaking quasi-realistic ballistics and gun-play.

 

[Pandagnome]

I'd like to see non-lethal weapons to stun/disable as another viable option
such as the use of energy leeching device at closer range or some ammo that drills into the mech
until it breaks up and ejects some dart to bring the pilot in a state of sleep

This can be done for example if you acquired hacking skills to enable control of an npc mech and take it over
to go into the enemy territory until they scan you more than once noticing the pilot anatomy and lifesigns does
not match ......then its escape time

 

[TankHunter678]

You, have of points there. But you can have one side energy output for portals. So you can have a massive device inside a safe place (like a warehouse in a military base) that is both powering the portals and giving you the items you want. If it is a large base with a spaceship power reactor it could open and many portals at once and supply many different people things at once.

There is problems with this idea. Like what if they give you the wrong items or they have to close the portals for maintenance on the device (so you can't change weapons or get more ammo that way). But you can also make that part of the story. Like what if the aliens find out where all the teleported stuff goes and try to act that place.

I was talking with my friend at the time and I brought up the Supreme Commander Aeon Illuminate Experimental Resource Generator Paragon. How it could produce infinite energy and mass to fuel all base operations (and if it was modeled correctly and not restricted by gameplay its explosion on destruction would crack planets in half) and be able to support such a thing.

He brought up that the problem is there needs to be an equally good power source on the other side to open the receiving portal. Which is the big reason why in sci-fi no series or books has ammunition teleport to the gun to avoid reloading. Power facilities capable of producing that much energy are the size of size of a small mountain and planet crackers in their own right when destroyed. When you look at warp technology it does not open a portal on both sides, it opens a portal on one side and the ship opens the portal on the exit side when they arrive.

In other cases you see that gates are used to move between pre-established points. On both sides the gates use the same type of power source in order to open the portal on both ends.

Its simply easier and more efficient to just have a system designed to manufacture basic munitions to refill the clips that can be worn on a soldiers back or belt. Or go for energy weapons with packs designed to be able to absorb energy from most sources (which is what they do in Warhammer 40k for Imperial Guardsmen).

I'd like to see non-lethal weapons to stun/disable as another viable option
such as the use of energy leeching device at closer range or some ammo that drills into the mech
until it breaks up and ejects some dart to bring the pilot in a state of sleep

This can be done for example if you acquired hacking skills to enable control of an npc mech and take it over
to go into the enemy territory until they scan you more than once noticing the pilot anatomy and lifesigns does
not match ......then its escape time

Well the problem with that is if you hit a omniframe with a device that drains its power not only will that cause the energy shield to drop, it also causes the integrity field to drop causing the upper body of the omniframe to crush the pilot into a pulp.

So much for non-lethal huh?

 

[Pandagnome]

Well the problem with that is if you hit a omniframe with a device that drains its power not only will that cause the energy shield to drop, it also causes the integrity field to drop causing the upper body of the omniframe to crush the pilot into a pulp.

So much for non-lethal huh?

Back to the drawing board

how about

Device that slows/temporarily shuts it down with the help of a specialized drone .

Hologram/decoys to send them the wrong way

Traps such as a force field dome, Visual scrabbler making their screen go funky where ever the trap is set
and a traptrap that splits into baby traps to frustrate you!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Omnires]

I was talking with my friend at the time and I brought up the Supreme Commander Aeon Illuminate Experimental Resource Generator Paragon. How it could produce infinite energy and mass to fuel all base operations (and if it was modeled correctly and not restricted by gameplay its explosion on destruction would crack planets in half) and be able to support such a thing.

He brought up that the problem is there needs to be an equally good power source on the other side to open the receiving portal. Which is the big reason why in sci-fi no series or books has ammunition teleport to the gun to avoid reloading. Power facilities capable of producing that much energy are the size of size of a small mountain and planet crackers in their own right when destroyed. When you look at warp technology it does not open a portal on both sides, it opens a portal on one side and the ship opens the portal on the exit side when they arrive.

In other cases you see that gates are used to move between pre-established points. On both sides the gates use the same type of power source in order to open the portal on both ends.

Its simply easier and more efficient to just have a system designed to manufacture basic munitions to refill the clips that can be worn on a soldiers back or belt. Or go for energy weapons with packs designed to be able to absorb energy from most sources (which is what they do in Warhammer 40k for Imperial Guardsmen).

Well that is why I said to use the whatever is powering the spaceships. Going by what the fleet ships use to travel between star systems should be enough to do that. Plus it is not uncommon to have spaceships the size of cities, mountains, and moons. Or we can forget the spaceshaltogetherter and have things like dyson spheres power stuff. So I don't see size being a problem, it'll just means that it would make more sense for some powersources to be out in space rather in on the planet itself.

Also with the idea of pocket dimensions floating around as idea in the game you could just do what some sci-fi do and pull power form spacetime itself. So if you can work out how zero point energy works and use it. Then you can draw energy from the universe itself or use the pocket dimension as world's most powerful and long lasting battery.

There are ways around the size problem and energy problem. The question is how much energy and space do you really need? Because there is always an way to get energy, the real problem is controling it.

As for controling the gates. Well going how powerful the computers of in the game are I can see supercomputers doing that. Using things like quantum entanglement to find out where the gun is and what it is doing at all times.

But having a molecular printer or replicator you can have fit into the gun itself would be the easy. That is why I said before about using things like dirt to make ammo by transmuting it.

 

[TankHunter678]

Well that is why I said to use the what every is powering the spaceships. Going by what the fleet ships use to travil between star systems should be enough to do that. Plus it is not uncommon to have spaceships the size of cities, mountains, and moons. Or eas can forget the ship althoghter and having things like dyson spheres. So I don't see size being a problem, it'll just means that it would make more sense for some powersources to be out in space rather in on the planet itself.

Also with the idea of pocket dimensions floating around you could just do what some sci-fi and pull power form spacetime itself. So if you can work out how zero point energy works and use it. Then you can draw energy from the universe itself or use the pocket dimension as world's most powerful and long lasting battery.

There are ways around the size problem and energy problem. The question is how much energy and space do you really need? Because there is always an way to get energy, the real problem is controling it.

As for controling the gates. Well going who powerful the computers of in the game are I can see supercomputers doing that. Using things like quantum entanglement find out where the gun is and what it is doing at all times.

You expect the omniframe, which already has to divert power to:

A energy shield which is the only defense you have against the both environment and hostiles attacking you.
A integrity field that is core to the frame keeping itself together and from crushing the pilot due to its lack of central support.
The jump jet and thruster system needed to maneuver the thing around.
Any energy weapons mounted on the suit itself.

To also be able to power a system to continuously open a hole into a pocket dimension to pump ammo into a non energy weapon gun? When such systems require massive power complexes the size of mountains?

Or even draw power from the universe itself which is basically saying "hey, lets rip a hole in the space time continuum!" which stands a great chance at collapsing the universe which is why that is generally avoided in every sci-fi series?

You need to remember: you need as much energy that is holding the hole open on one side, as on the other side. A mech the size of the omniframe, with all of its big energy requirement systems, cannot carry a power source capable of doing that. Not without each frame going down wiping out an entire region worth of stuff in the ensuing explosion on core breach.

Science, and safety regulations, just does not allow it.

 

[Omnires]

You expect the omniframe, which already has to divert power to:

A energy shield which is the only defense you have against the both environment and hostiles attacking you.
A integrity field that is core to the frame keeping itself together and from crushing the pilot due to its lack of central support.
The jump jet and thruster system needed to maneuver the thing around.
Any energy weapons mounted on the suit itself.

To also be able to power a system to continuously open a hole into a pocket dimension to pump ammo into a non energy weapon gun? When such systems require massive power complexes the size of mountains?

Or even draw power from the universe itself which is basically saying "hey, lets rip a hole in the space time continuum!" which stands a great chance at collapsing the universe which is why that is generally avoided in every sci-fi series?

You need to remember: you need as much energy that is holding the hole open on one side, as on the other side. A mech the size of the omniframe, with all of its big energy requirement systems, cannot carry a power source capable of doing that. Not without each frame going down wiping out an entire region worth of stuff in the ensuing explosion on core breach.

Science, and safety regulations, just does not allow it.

Nope, that is why I was talking about remote power sources that can transmit power from place to another place. For example, for a dyson sphere to work it needs to be around a star, but the thing it is powering doesn't have to be anywhere near the star do to it transmitting power wirelessly using things electromagnetic waves (light, x-rays, radio waves, gamma rays). So the Omnifame is not using its own power to runs these extra systems, but using the energy it is receiving from things like satellites and/or towers.

Also since the opening to a pocket dimension can be any size that means zero point energy batteries can be any size too. Because it is not the size of the battery that matters, but the size of the universe/dimension you are drawing power from. And I didn't come up with the pocket dimension idea ethere I'm just using that dev said.

The Omniframe has hands, and will hold its weapons. Things being contemplated but not decided:

1) How many weapons can you switch between (yes, pocket dimension hand-wave. yes, at least two weapons)
2) Will there be melee weapons?
3) Will the two shoulder mount canisters be weapon hardpoints on the frame for frame specific alt-fire or even abilities?

So, all I know for sure is that the Omniframe acts like a battleframe, in that it holds its weapons. Omniframe also has a clear shoulder mount system in the concept that we may or may not use for permanent shoulder mount accessories (could be weapons, could be abilities, etc.) Controls and the rest will be figured out later.

 

[TankHunter678]

Nope, that is why I was talking about remote power sources that can transmit power from place to another place. For example, for a dyson sphere to work it needs to be around a star, but the thing it is powering doesn't have to be anywhere near the star do to it transmitting power wirelessly using things electromagnetic waves (light, x-rays, radio waves, gamma rays). So the Omnifame is not using its own power to runs these extra systems, but using the energy it is receiving from things like satellites and/or towers.

Also since the opening to a pocket dimension can be any size that means zero point energy batteries can be any size too. Because it is not the size of the battery that matters, but the size of the universe/dimension you are drawing power from. And I didn't come up with the pocket dimension idea ethere I'm just using that dev said.

Then the entire thing depends completely on there being an existing power structure at a planet that is not even being colonized yet. It still has to go through terraforming first before proper colonization comes in. So we wont have access to a dyson sphere. Further, with how many omniframes that will be on the field at any point in time fighting the power consumption will be enormous enough with just pulling weapons out. Something that Zone of the Enders did, and the reason why they could only use it sparingly to pull out weapons was precisely because of the energy requirements involved.

And even if these zero point batteries are in the pocket dimension... you still need to have enough power output on both sides to maintain it. You could reach in and pull something out quickly, but it wont be sustainable. You wont be able to just open a portal to a pocket dimension continuously and teleport rounds into the gun. Maybe to pull out a box of ammo to refill the current available clips but that is about it. You would still have to manually reload the gun. There would also be significant cooldown between pulling things out in order for the frame to generate enough power for the next momentary opening.

Its actually more economical to teleport a gun down to the omniframe from orbiting support ships. Like Arsenals had with some of their weapons in Firefall.

 

[Omnires]

Then the entire thing depends completely on there being an existing power structure at a planet that is not even being colonized yet. It still has to go through terraforming first before proper colonization comes in. So we wont have access to a dyson sphere. Further, with how many omniframes that will be on the field at any point in time fighting the power consumption will be enormous enough with just pulling weapons out. Something that Zone of the Enders did, and the reason why they could only use it sparingly to pull out weapons was precisely because of the energy requirements involved.

And even if these zero point batteries are in the pocket dimension... you still need to have enough power output on both sides to maintain it. You could reach in and pull something out quickly, but it wont be sustainable. You wont be able to just open a portal to a pocket dimension continuously and teleport rounds into the gun. Maybe to pull out a box of ammo to refill the current available clips but that is about it. You would still have to manually reload the gun. There would also be significant cooldown between pulling things out in order for the frame to generate enough power for the next momentary opening.

Its actually more economical to teleport a gun down to the omniframe from orbiting support ships. Like Arsenals had with some of their weapons in Firefall.

Yes, I agree. By my main goal atm is trying to explain how NPCs can do such things. Because in many games NPCs have unlimited ammo and never seem to reload. Just like how in many action movies you'll see a gun fight with people firing way more shots than the guns they are using can hold without reloading. It is something that bothers people like me, who subconsciously do things like count how many shots are fired. The best time to fire back or move to a different cover point is while the enemy is reloading. It is not like I'm saying this needs to be in the game. I'm just trying to find logical solutions to a common error I see in a lot of games.

As players, we could ask that NPCs have to follow the same rules as players, with them having to reload and can run out of ammo just like we can. But some people will mostly say it'll make the game too easy, as a person could just try and get enemies into used up all their ammo before getting easy kills. Although personally, I like that idea as gives people who are tactical more options when dealing with large groups enemies solo (one of them being, dance around like an idiot dodging bullets until the NPCs run out of ammo).

 

[TankHunter678]

Did you ever do the quests in Firefall where you dressed up as a NPC bandit and used their weapons?

Those bandits have clip sizes of ~9000 rounds on their rifles. They are just hard coded to force reload after firing a certain amount of rounds, even though they did not need to. This is because NPCs are designed to emulate player limitations, but ultimately have cheat weapons as sometimes the AI server messed up and enemies would get stuck in a state of never being able to reload.

Funny thing though, the reason why bandit grenadiers were the strongest bandit enemy to fight is because they get unmodded player weapons.




In its most basic form, its a case of gameplay and story segregation.

 

[phoenix]

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