DevTracker

[Ronyn]

True, but this is why i also support a true ecosystem. Certain specialized players would gravitate towards certain areas, doing specific tasks, even level up in them. I for one hate thumping, but loved tornado chasing. If both gave different types of rewards of equal value a natural trade would come from this. I would even go so far as to create hot-spots with actual markets. Non of that, "push a button" to buy an item. Actual markets where people would have to socialize.

Bring the MM, back in MMO. The more a resource ups in quantity, the more it declines in price. Merchants would be NPCs.

Letting people focus their playtime on the types of missions they personally enjoy is definitely part of the goal for Em-8ER. The world being more akin to a real ecosystem in some sense where different places yield different challenges and rewards has merit.
As for how Em-8ER will handle rewards is yet to be revealed.

Your thoughts about how much the markets should push interaction could lead to a fascinating discussion. It's a matter of how large or small an amount of time and focus the game intends the players to spend on economic concerns. Pushing for social interactions through market design is an interesting concept when looking at games in general but not necessarily applicable to Em-8ER. Considering that we arent making an MMO, many of the goals and/or expectations of that genre have no bearing on what Em-8ER is meant to be.

 

[Ronyn]

Yeah i guess. Honestly i don't know, i'm not a game designer. A gem system was the best i could come up with now. You need some type of tredmill, doesn't have to be big or even important but "grind" will always be a part of long term games. Look at Skyrim. There's grind in Skyrim, it just doesn't feel teadios becasue you're allowed to do and go wherever you want and still "level up".

If by grind you mean something to chase, I would agree that players generally need things to keep on chasing. If by treadmill you mean a reason to do the same missions/zones/areas repeatedly, I would agree that there should to be systems in place to keep areas relevant to the player. So I think we are on the same general page there.

What I seek to caution everyone against is viewing all versions of "something to do" as equally effective motivators for players.
Historically, there have been things that are far more effective at motivating players than others, while other mechanics/systems prove to be effective at various other tasks. Knowing what does what is important, and knowing what really motivates players is key. We definitely want to keep that mind when designing any system. I look forward to the time when Grummz publicly reveals a bit more about what will be motivating players in Em-8ER to keep on playing.

 

[Ronyn]

I'm all open to ideas, but imo, the idea of rested XP or any similar way to minimize binge behavior in an MMO is good, both for the general consumer as product. What that is, i don't know. But imo, the refining/printer idea was pretty close.

Em-8ER isn't an MMO, though I don't believe that binge issues only exist with the mmo genre, so those concerns remain relevant.
Still, we have to seek out the positive reinforcement version of averting that behavior whenever possible. As I mentioned before, I think your gem idea does a reasonable job of that. Though I'm not certain I fully know what you mean when you say "refining/printer" idea.

 

[Ronyn]

Games with horizontal progression must have sinks, because sinks = steady economy = steady rewards value and people want valuable rewards for their time and effort.

No one is arguing against the need of sinks, the question is only about what those sinks should be. Moreover, there is some question of where sinks fit in to making playtime feel valuable to players.

Do you remember what happened after removing decay from Firefall?

I remember what happened when it was removed, I also remember what happened when it was added. There remains a lot of debate and different perspectives on what the result was at both times.

Decay in Firefall wasn't perfect, but after balancing and changing resource and crafting systems for much simpler, it wouldn't be so painful. It is possible to create decay, that won't be painful for players, but all connected system (resource, crafting, rewards, etc.) must match together. Red5 took one system from one game, second system from other game, but Red5 haven't realized that they don't match.

Indeed, I agree that it is possible to create a decay that isnt so painful for players, provided that is one of the goals of a game.
That just isnt something we are looking to do here with Em-8ER.

At this moment, we don't know much about Em-8ER. It will be MMO+shooter, but we don't know in which proportions.

One thing we do know is that Em-8ER will not be an MMO.

Sure, but you're missing the point. WoW at some point introduced something like rested XP. This was to prevent people burning out on content. This also shows the genius of the people designing the refining/printer design. It was rested XP 2.0. Very few picked up on this.

Very sneaky.

The story of rest XP is well known to me, both from reading about it years ago and from discussing it with Grummz is recent months.
Worth noting that-
"In the beta version of the original world of warcraft game, rest did not exist and experience was designed to prevent players from playing more than few hours in a row. Experience gained was simply halved after few hours. However, beta-testers did not like it and rest was implemented, giving instead 200% of experience for few hours, which Blizzard's developers later reported as being the "same numbers seen from the opposite point of view" "

The lesson I got from the rest XP story was that there is a way to implement very similar behavior based mechanics using positive reinforcement as opposed to negative reinforcement. Which I do not personally believe that lessen was properly applied to the refining/printer design of either the patch 6 to 9 timeframe nor the 1.0 versions of firefall. (btw, I think your "gem" idea is a reasonable reflection of the lessen learned there)

 

[Ronyn]

Maybe, but you once said that that the biggest issues with FF was trying to appeal to everyone. I agree with that statement, just in a different way. Make it more like WoW, make it more like Eve.

That's the same way actually. WOW and EVE are too extremely different directions to take an economy in, trying to do both simultaneously will only serve to split the games direction in two. Such a thing splits both the various developers goals and the communities expectations apart as well. It's one thing to learn from all different types of games, it's a whole other thing to try to implement contradictory systems into the same model. A developer has to choose a direction, be unified in that vision, and stick to it to completion.

I'm glad to say that, internally, we arent split in mind on what kind of Economic model Em-8ER is meant to have. We are following Grummz lead quite well. On that, and on the everything else.

There are many ways to make a healthy economy. As far as the issues of the "conditioned masses" and "game addiction.", those are two whole discussions in themselves. I'm not looking to delve into them here. heh.

I'M LOSING TRACK OF WHAT-EVER-THIS-SH*T-IS HERE.

WASN'T ALL THAT STUPID "WANT-WANT-DEMANDING-MIMIMI" ONE OF THE MANY REASON THAT KILLED [THE-GAME-SHOULD-JUST-F*CKING-DIE-AND-BE-FORGOTTEN] ?

AND NOW ALL YOU IDIOTS WANNA MAKE THAT F*CKING MISTAKE AGAIN?

No worries on that front. We know where we are headed, and we bound and determined to get there. As I said, the official stance on the durability issue was expressed months ago. No major changes to it are expected.