The absolute limit of builds.

[Omnires]

This thread is more about finding the absolute limits of different builds and should that be allowed. So like a lot of my threads this one is going to have some of theory crafting in it. Where we push things to limits of what we can and can't do in the game.

For example, it is no secret that I love overwhelming raw attack power builds able kill everything in games short of bosses in 1 hit (there is a reason I main as things like assassins, snipers, berserkers, and the like in other games). But I also like to make pure speed characters where as they don't win in 1 or 2 hits but through death by a 1000 cuts. In other words in every game I try to make one melee character be like Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star. Where my main melee character would be a walking sniper rifle or mass driver and my alt melee character would be a walking mingun or vulcan cannon just with their normal attacks.

Over my life time of playing games I've had lots of devs change how things work just because I and few other people like play which is just normal and natural to how we think but also for some reason some people think it "breaks the game". I've had it happen a few times in my like where the devs of a game although never said it outright directly that the changes they made to the game was because of me and how I like to play. Mind you, I don't cheat or use exploits, I just like to play for fun and mind idea of fun is sometimes atypical (In games like Warframe I'm one of the people who talks about meme builds rather than meta builds). And it is with that idea in mind that I wand to focus on here. Because there is so few games that let people like me just relax and cut loose it is kind of hard not to feel like your being targeted by devs sometimes for thinking in ways they didn't account for. But by having known hard limits and caps on things with absolute numbers on them. It'll save myself and others like me a lot of time effort in making characters / builds to meme fun with only walk up next day having the build nerfed out of existences.

P.s.
I'm not sure anyone of this makes sense atm. I've been sick in bed for past few days and a few odd dreams pop up here and there. Where all my old beloved characters and builds was hunted down and killed because they didn't fit with within the rules that the fun police was looking at the time. But at the same time they never give any clear reasons as why some things was allowed and they others was not. Even if logically speaking it made no real difference other than how some viewed a problem or an answer to question.

 

[Mahdi]

You had me at Fist of the North Star!

“Death shouldn't be rushed, one should savor it like fine wine And enjoy it's aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, so be it”

“Rei, do you smell that? That’s the smell of death Rei!”

 

[Sy]

@Omnires

Having been the guy who has broken a game and had mechanics changed to address things, I understand.

However, trivializing content is definitely not ideal including for those who play that meta game. I've cheesed games and it does get boring even for me.

It's especially bad if some meta is discovered which does that and it catches on as the "required" build. Even if that's the perception it diminishes enjoyment. See Path of Exile for versions of this.

Having said that, Path of Exile was cited by Grummz a long time ago as being really interesting in terms of player choice. With character complexity like that, or guns, weapon mods, etc. will come precisely your type of play.

I'm sure that if things are customizable enough to have the extremes really possible then the devs will be balancing between the trivialization problem and the required build perception problem.

For example, flight trivializes content and shrinks the world. A shrunken world has been said to be a good thing as a balance to bring convenience, but grappling hooks were introduced to require a level of skill if the player attempts to trivialize combat by flying past it. Therefore if a player builds for flight in some way (fuel, height, speed) and the devs feel it trivializes content too easily then it's a point of something like ethics to do something until a specific skill level is required.

For example, a good game will allow some sort of "glass cannon" build which requires significant skill to use effectively. The balance is between the glass and the cannon, and it has to require just the right amount of skill that it's left in the hands of the minority who really enjoy that style and not too tempting for people casual to that style. A good min-max glass cannon build should push a player to rise to that difficulty level.

Sniping, as another example. If a sniper can simply hang back and shoot everything before it gets to them, then that's a similar problem. Aiming, snap shots, choosing targets, range, etc. are all things which would have to be considered by devs to make sure it's fun even for sniper specialists. A certain amount of skill would need to be required to make that a min-max playstyle. So it is up to the devs to make it challenging. One thing that's been thought about is what happens when one unit is killed. The biters have a sort of flock/scatter mechanic that's been thought about. (See also Mass enemy movement) Maybe to address/allow excellence from snipers would have something similar: Enemies wouldn't simply stand around waiting to be picked off, or hide behind cover and pop out only to be cut down one after another, something else has to be done like scattering and flanking.

The same is true for any build.

Having said that, there also needs to be a reward for the player when they build just the right loadout for their playstyle. Grummz has mentioned that early Firefall gameplay required too much ammo to kill a little unit, making the player feel weak. There needs to be aspects of the game to make players feel heroic right away. Later gameplay will also need to be sufficiently difficult that a good loadout feels just as rewarding. A person with great skill and their great loadout should be very capable at that same "bracket" of combat, but should also be able to take on more difficult battles than a beginner or maybe an individual intermediate-loadout player.

Some players understand themselves and build for their ability, and that should definitely make them better at their specialty.

Medics are not great snipers. Snipers are not great engineers. Sure a Frankenstein's monster build might suit a particular player well, but a min-maxed sniper-character in the hands of a sniper-player should absolutely be better at sniping than anyone.

 

[Omnires]

True, but I just wish more game devs was up front with their goals and rules on how they want people to play their game to cut down on the confusion people like me when they specifically target our playstyles and/or builds. Because nothing is more madding then having the devs target your way of playing by nurfing it to hell so it is unplayable, and then a few weeks later they nerf your other build into the ground without warning nor explanation. At least when devs give us clear logical reasons as to why they are making changes it gives those of us who are effected by those changes to avoid having something like that happen again by making sure we don't go outside of the bounds their view of the how things should be in the game. With when they don't tell us things or explain what is in or outside of the limits of what they want they can't be upset when people go outside of that.

Side note: it just like an ex-girlfriend had once. Get upset at me for something but never told me what it was even when I asked. Because of the whole "if you don't know what is wrong than i'm not telling you." mindset. And my mindset being "Then do be surprised if it happens again. How you can fix a problem if you don't know what the problem is. So if you don't tell me, I can't fix it."

Anyway, I think more devs need to take into account the different playstyles and mindsets player have. It shouldn't be all that hard as their is like only 4 or 6 main group of player personality types with many sub-groups. But they should focus on understanding and account for the main groups because it would allow them make a game around the core needs of each main player type and futureproofing things a bit if bugs pop up in the game after an update. The reason why a lot of games fail or have a high turnover rate (players joining the game and quitting shortly after) is do to a lack of understanding of the core wants/needs the key basic player personality types are looking for.

Also having devs just go all in and embrace these core wants and needs of players is always fun. Because I know that the player personality type subgroup that I'm in are the people who answers things like "Why would you do that." with "Because the game is not stopping me, that's why." and I know that can also lead to over the top builds and stuff. But sometimes you just need to have some mindless fun in your life. And if I want to make a character that seems like they are part of EDF inside of an MMO... Will if the game is not going to stop me, than why not?

P.S. for the people who don't know what EDF is or why allowing for such a build in most MMOs would be viewed as broken as all hell. lol

 

[Pandagnome]

True, but I just wish more game devs was up front with their goals and rules on how they want people to play their game to cut down on the confusion people like me when they specifically target our playstyles and/or builds. Because nothing is more madding then having the devs target your way of playing by nurfing it to hell so it is unplayable, and then a few weeks later they nerf your other build into the ground without warning nor explanation. At least when devs give us clear logical reasons as to why they are making changes it gives those of us who are effected by those changes to avoid having something like that happen again by making sure we don't go outside of the bounds their view of the how things should be in the game. With when they don't tell us things or explain what is in or outside of the limits of what they want they can't be upset when people go outside of that.

Side note: it just like an ex-girlfriend had once. Get upset at me for something but never told me what it was even when I asked. Because of the whole "if you don't know what is wrong than i'm not telling you." mindset. And my mindset being "Then do be surprised if it happens again. How you can fix a problem if you don't know what the problem is. So if you don't tell me, I can't fix it."

Anyway, I think more devs need to take into account the different playstyles and mindsets player have. It shouldn't be all that hard as their is like only 4 or 6 main group of player personality types with many sub-groups. But they should focus on understanding and account for the main groups because it would allow them make a game around the core needs of each main player type and futureproofing things a bit if bugs pop up in the game after an update. The reason why a lot of games fail or have a high turnover rate (players joining the game and quitting shortly after) is do to a lack of understanding of the core wants/needs the key basic player personality types are looking for.

Also having devs just go all in and embrace these core wants and needs of players is always fun. Because I know that the player personality type subgroup that I'm in are the people who answers things like "Why would you do that." with "Because the game is not stopping me, that's why." and I know that can also lead to over the top builds and stuff. But sometimes you just need to have some mindless fun in your life. And if I want to make a character that seems like they are part of EDF inside of an MMO... Will if the game is not going to stop me, than why not?

P.S. for the people who don't know what EDF is or why allowing for such a build in most MMOs would be viewed as broken as all hell. lol

What i really like is the rag doll in edf, and could knee biters be rag dolled into the sea?
Wonder if the knee biters would be the smallest enemies perhaps there are far sinister micro pains undiscovered such as jumping creatures that slap and go back in the ground / water not that they do much harm just really get in the way of what your usually doing.