Specialized elements

Do you like this idea


  • Total voters
    15

Luisedgm

Deepscanner
Jul 27, 2016
103
149
43
#21
Common misconception: Electric attacks would not be more effective on metal armored targets, it would be useless against them since electricity always go through the path of least resistance, so having a very conductive metal armor would shield you from the attack conducting the damage though the armor surface, while using a non-conductive armor would cause you to take all the damage if your body makes contact with the ground or any grounded surface, as long as the armor is not fully covering your body, which in this case would negate the attack unless its strong enough to surpass the armor electrical resistivity.

-Edit-
Also bio attacks should be split into acid attacks that can be prevented by armor and poison/disease which requires a gas mask or closed breathing system to protect your body from it
 

Vedemin

Deepscanner
Jul 27, 2016
161
164
43
#22
i'm not exactly sure behind the logic of having toxic effective against unarmored targets and kinetic against armored ones or why electric is good against armor either since insulation coating is ridiculously simple to apply on armor (on the level that you coan literally spary paint it on) but i agree on general purposes.
Thought the majority of weapons could have 3-4 alternatives to switch in between, nothing too wild, obiviously we don't want toxic lasers/electric snipers but i don't actually see why freezing grenade launchers/toxic flamethrowers would be a problem, grenade style payload seems a good vector for liquid nitrogen payload and chemical throwers aren't that far out there (i've heard of a few countries far out there using diluited bleach/stinking chemicals in riot water cannons, that's pretty much how it'd work.)

here's how i'd reorganize elemental damage with resists

Cold \
Thermal ----- Bonus against armour
Toxic /

Kinetic \
Electric ------- Bonus against shields
Beam /

Also i just don't see why naked flesh would resist anything, if something loses all armor and shields or whatever protections are in place it should just die

In the end "elemental weaknesses" are totally arbitrary and it's up to the devs to make them work in a way that's balanced
Toxic flamethrowers aren't flamethrowers. They are weapons that can launch liquid toxins on distance creating toxin spills as I suggested in another thread. Grenade with elemental damage are absolutely ok.

Toxic damage would be toxins and acid. Acid corrodes armor and toxins melt flesh. That's why they are very effective on infantry. Ice doesn't really affect armor at all, the point of freezing to the point of being crushable is to freeze water. Armor has no water. As for the insulation, you are right, however it's a game, why not? I see no point in thermal being effective against armor, it stops heat really well if heat isn't constantly applied for long time. Kinetic has penetration simply by giant force, nothing else has it. That makes kinetic effective against armor and shields. Beam is really a concentrated heat. So while good vs armor after a bit of melting, it can be useful also against shields. Shields often stop energy and ignore kinetic, why not here?
 

EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
777
1,557
93
#23
Beam is really a concentrated heat.
Wut? What kind of beam...a wooden beam? a beam from a heat lamp? I mean when you get right down to it ALL weapons are simply a method of energy transfer where the energy is hopefully large enough to disrupt the system you are targeting (often biological in nature). Heat is actually a biproduct of too much energy being introduced into a system. Outside of actual fire (which is itself is simply thermal convection) you don't actually incur damage through heat. In fact per quanta Infrared (heat) is actually somewhat low on the energy scale. Gamma radiation is something like 100,000 times more energy per quanta over infrared.

Radio Waves > Microwaves > Infrared(heat) > Visible Light Spectrum > UV radiation (A and B) > X-rays > Gamma radiation

"Beam" weapons are not really any different in usage than projectile weapons. Their benefits are the higher speed between firing and target damage, as well as no recoil or weapon jitter due to not having to accelerate a solid projectile. The downside of "beam" weapons is that the higher energy they are the faster they bleed off into the surrounding atmosphere, making plasma (highest energy physical in physical matter form), and Lasers have a much shorter range potentially than ballistics.

The other major difference between projectile weapons and pure energy weapons is that the projectile delivers all of its energy in a very short amount of time. Protecting against a physical weapon requires you to either absorb the energy over a longer period of time (soft armor) or deflect the armor at an angle so that only a small fraction of the energy bleeds off (hard armor) With energy weapons the damage is incurred over a longer period of time, in fact to get full potential you actually have to hold the weapon "beam" on target for an extended period of time to build up energy in one spot. To avoid energy weapon damage all you have to do is move enough to prevent the beam from remaining on target.
 

Vedemin

Deepscanner
Jul 27, 2016
161
164
43
#24
Wut? What kind of beam...a wooden beam? a beam from a heat lamp? I mean when you get right down to it ALL weapons are simply a method of energy transfer where the energy is hopefully large enough to disrupt the system you are targeting (often biological in nature). Heat is actually a biproduct of too much energy being introduced into a system. Outside of actual fire (which is itself is simply thermal convection) you don't actually incur damage through heat. In fact per quanta Infrared (heat) is actually somewhat low on the energy scale. Gamma radiation is something like 100,000 times more energy per quanta over infrared.

Radio Waves > Microwaves > Infrared(heat) > Visible Light Spectrum > UV radiation (A and B) > X-rays > Gamma radiation

"Beam" weapons are not really any different in usage than projectile weapons. Their benefits are the higher speed between firing and target damage, as well as no recoil or weapon jitter due to not having to accelerate a solid projectile. The downside of "beam" weapons is that the higher energy they are the faster they bleed off into the surrounding atmosphere, making plasma (highest energy physical in physical matter form), and Lasers have a much shorter range potentially than ballistics.

The other major difference between projectile weapons and pure energy weapons is that the projectile delivers all of its energy in a very short amount of time. Protecting against a physical weapon requires you to either absorb the energy over a longer period of time (soft armor) or deflect the armor at an angle so that only a small fraction of the energy bleeds off (hard armor) With energy weapons the damage is incurred over a longer period of time, in fact to get full potential you actually have to hold the weapon "beam" on target for an extended period of time to build up energy in one spot. To avoid energy weapon damage all you have to do is move enough to prevent the beam from remaining on target.
You don't need to explain physics to me, physics is my hobby actually :) The thing I meant is that beams are damaging the target because of heat they produce. They have no bullets or explosions so they have to damage by heat applied to target. I was not clear, sorry, what I meant is that beams are damaging with heat, they are ofc not heat by themselves :)
 

Bl4ckhunter

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
157
123
43
#26
Toxic flamethrowers aren't flamethrowers. They are weapons that can launch liquid toxins on distance creating toxin spills as I suggested in another thread. Grenade with elemental damage are absolutely ok.
"Real" flamethrowers are flammable-liquid chemical throwers with an ignition sistem and have also a commendably long range, the gas one (which i think is the one you reference) doesn't really exist as a weapon, chemical throwers and flamethrowers, excluding the eventual ignition and anticorrosive coating depending, they're exactly the same device.
Toxic damage would be toxins and acid. Acid corrodes armor and toxins melt flesh. That's why they are very effective on infantry. Ice doesn't really affect armor at all, the point of freezing to the point of being crushable is to freeze water. Armor has no water. As for the insulation, you are right, however it's a game, why not? I see no point in thermal being effective against armor, it stops heat really well if heat isn't constantly applied for long time. Kinetic has penetration simply by giant force, nothing else has it. That makes kinetic effective against armor and shields. Beam is really a concentrated heat. So while good vs armor after a bit of melting, it can be useful also against shields. Shields often stop energy and ignore kinetic, why not here?
It's an arbitrary sistem becouse a good half of those things doesn't exist but still teorycrafting it i disagree

first off, everything is extremely effective against flesh unless you're talking about elephant/t-rex flesh which is so thick that we might as well call it armor at that point so what's effective against flesh is a bit beside the point.

Second, shields can block everything and the opposite of everything depending on lore (assuming they exist) so they're left as balance fillers for thing that aren't effective against armor.

"Ice" and "cold" are very different things, you cannot weaponize ice (well you can but it'd be kinetic damage at that point =) ), cold not only makes armor brittle but also bypasses it (generally through ventilation/direct conduction), cold affects the structural integrity of metal, a termal shock combined to sending armor far under the ductile-brittle transition temperature is guaranteed to make it shatter like glass, at which point if what's inside isn't already dead it'll soon be, besides intense cold causes instant tissue necrosis on the affected parts, water in the body freezing isn't generally the cause of death and is technically survivable.

Thermal is similiar in most aspects to cold and bypasses armor in similiar ways

Kinetic damage is the least effective thing against armour that you could think of, in terms of results/energy spent, armor's motive of existence is deflecting kinetic energy, you can puncture armour with enough kinetic energy but it's a very inefficient process given that simple puncturing isn't nearly as damaging as cryogenic/thermal/toxic burning, besides 99.9 of armor piercing ammunitions are also either incendiary, explosive or pyrophoric
 

NightStroke

Base Commander
Base Commander
Jul 26, 2016
135
231
43
#27
I really don't like the idea elements being good against specific things; in the old firefall, elements were really a matter of effects and aesthetic. I'm of that opinion that if an ability does X damage to one target, it should do X damage to every other target. I hate it if I have to change my play style simply because armored targets have 30% resistance to thermal damage or something.

I'm completely ok with thematic design in element types. Meaning I think it's ok if all poison abilities and weapons generally have no impact damage but long DoT while thermal items have impact damage and declining DoT. General trends for element functionality=good, varying enemy resistance to specific elements=bad.
 

Fac3man

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
34
16
8
#29
16 billion.. That's a lot and would be nice but takes probably a lot of time programming.. In the end people are complaining that there's not enough playable content like mission.. But I really like the idea... There would be a unique weapon for everyone
 

Torgue_Joey

Kaiju Slayer
KAIJU 'SPLODER
Jul 27, 2016
1,123
2,703
113
Germany
#30
16 billion.. That's a lot and would be nice but takes probably a lot of time programming.. In the end people are complaining that there's not enough playable content like mission.. But I really like the idea... There would be a unique weapon for everyone
*Million not billion ^^
And not a lot programming, just a lot of assets. Ex: rifle is made up to 7 component (scope, grip, ammo....) for every component there is, let say, 7 different manufacturers (with different pros and cons). The program just build it randomly together.

In ember, I'd rather like to build my own to suit my playstyle and be more unique to other, as other has their own preference.

*turning my rifle into a quad-zooka*
BOOMCHAKALAKA
 
Jul 26, 2016
73
132
33
Brisbane, Australia
#31
Is this an Ember related thread or WoW with guns/Firefall thread?

if we get plasma guns, I expect them to do plasma gun things. very similar to what was shown in the ancient pax trailer with radial force included.
same with lasers (should be hit scan and highly accurate)
same with bullets (do typical bullet things)
same with flame throwers (fire propagation, ignites)

we are Reapers. Not L110 Elemental Shamans.
 

Daynen

Active Member
Aug 3, 2016
184
246
43
#32
I feel I have to debunk something here: in a game where everything has a lifebar, there's really no such thing as "different kinds of damage." It's all damage; you just get extra if your damage matches their defense, or less if it doesn't match. Unless we get modular, destructible environments and enemies that need to be dealt with in ways beyond just "click till it drops loot," then all the elemental 'damage types' are really all the same. If these weapon types have different FUNCTIONS and EFFECTS on enemies, objects and the environment beyond just depleting a lifebar, then we'll have something a little more noteworthy. Otherwise we're just recycling a theme for complexity's sake.
 
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