There's plenty of other games to kill other people in. 
And we will kill together in this one until a day if it all materalizes and they want to add some new content.
I'm just a player who is split 50/50 on PvE/PvP. That's why *for now* I decided not to chip in some cash on the indigogo. To me, that's half of what I look for in game missing.
But with some of the certain designs and talks I've been reading, still looking like I'd get the vanilla up front version because MECHA IS LOVE. <3
And we will kill together in this one until a day if it all materalizes and they want to add some new content.
I'm just a player who is split 50/50 on PvE/PvP. That's why *for now* I decided not to chip in some cash on the indigogo. To me, that's half of what I look for in game missing.
But with some of the certain designs and talks I've been reading, still looking like I'd get the vanilla up front version because MECHA IS LOVE. <3
The problem with PvP is that its a completely different game from PvE. Many times this is not clearly understood which results in situations where PvP and PvE are mixed and the overall balance, and happiness, of both modes gets destroyed. Take Firefall as a good example of this.
That is the reason why Mark is saying no to PvP, at least right now.
If PvP were to be implemented it would need to be segregated from PvE, this is because the mindsets and needs of PvE and PvP players are so different. This also means that some types of PvP would likely never happen for the good health of the game, specifically world PvP.
In fact a FFA forced PvP zone in Legion is causing a large amount of strife and leading to blizzard bleeding players again. Because the zone forces PvE players into a PvP environment regardless of their server choice. Even worse it lets people kill each other regardless of faction making it a breeding ground for griefers, trolls, and other sum of the internet.
So the most likely PvP, would be instanced arena PvP. Which is exactly what Firefall had, and back before PvE was introduced was the funnest PvP it ever had because of how good the balance was on the first try. Once PvE gear got introduced the balance was destroyed. Have purple gear or do not participate, otherwise you die instantly and get spawn camped regardless of player skill.
That is the reason why Mark is saying no to PvP, at least right now.
If PvP were to be implemented it would need to be segregated from PvE, this is because the mindsets and needs of PvE and PvP players are so different. This also means that some types of PvP would likely never happen for the good health of the game, specifically world PvP.
In fact a FFA forced PvP zone in Legion is causing a large amount of strife and leading to blizzard bleeding players again. Because the zone forces PvE players into a PvP environment regardless of their server choice. Even worse it lets people kill each other regardless of faction making it a breeding ground for griefers, trolls, and other sum of the internet.
So the most likely PvP, would be instanced arena PvP. Which is exactly what Firefall had, and back before PvE was introduced was the funnest PvP it ever had because of how good the balance was on the first try. Once PvE gear got introduced the balance was destroyed. Have purple gear or do not participate, otherwise you die instantly and get spawn camped regardless of player skill.
Am thinking ultra long term here
Something that would be rad would be a guild wars 2 equivalent of world v world where servers fight against each other
Alternatively, have it fighting for a corporation wanting to terraform or do something with said planet in a specific way
Maps would be like that of edge of the mists or the desert one with some pve elements to keep it interesting
Something that would be rad would be a guild wars 2 equivalent of world v world where servers fight against each other
Alternatively, have it fighting for a corporation wanting to terraform or do something with said planet in a specific way
Maps would be like that of edge of the mists or the desert one with some pve elements to keep it interesting
I would play PvP on ember, but im against adding it
PvP ruins PvE balance, its almost impossible to balance both at the same time
Even WoW has tried for over a decade and their solution was to remove anything unique the classes had and add a bunch of artificial attributes like resilience
On a low budget project its even worse
PvP ruins PvE balance, its almost impossible to balance both at the same time
Even WoW has tried for over a decade and their solution was to remove anything unique the classes had and add a bunch of artificial attributes like resilience
On a low budget project its even worse
The problem with pvp is that everyone wants to make it something fancy, so long as you don't have difference of scales between HP and DPS, and in a game with horizontal progression you really shouldn't, or an overwelming amount of lock ons, damage buffs and resistences, which are other things that should generally be avoided as well as they unbalance pve just as much, pvp should be as simple as tagging a delimited zone or a secluded instance for friendly fire and throwing in some juicy objectives for groups of people to contest over if they want to, that's how it works in games like minecraft and ARK and it works fine.
You don't need Esport level balance to have a fun OWpvp, you just need to give people a large enough number of weapons, let mobs in there so players can also do some casual pve if there's no action going on and to add some more variables to pvp and put something worth fighting over and most important of all don't force people into it if they don't want to, the rest will come along unless your pve gameplay has warframe level of cheesy gameplay (if it does i'd say that you need to take a long hard look at it anyways), some weapons will be naturally stronger and some other will be snobbed by everyone but that's fine so long as they're useful in pve, not everything needs to be ideal for pvp.
Just, don't force people to play pvp with unique rewards etch, yes, make it worth their while, but don't make it a requirement for anything, just don't.
As far as arena pvp goes i'd say not to bother at all, it's complex to balance, requires tailored maps, a ton of work and there are a lot of games that will simply do it better as it's the only thing they have to do, most people that want to play an arena shooter will not come looking for it in an open world game anyways.
You don't need Esport level balance to have a fun OWpvp, you just need to give people a large enough number of weapons, let mobs in there so players can also do some casual pve if there's no action going on and to add some more variables to pvp and put something worth fighting over and most important of all don't force people into it if they don't want to, the rest will come along unless your pve gameplay has warframe level of cheesy gameplay (if it does i'd say that you need to take a long hard look at it anyways), some weapons will be naturally stronger and some other will be snobbed by everyone but that's fine so long as they're useful in pve, not everything needs to be ideal for pvp.
Just, don't force people to play pvp with unique rewards etch, yes, make it worth their while, but don't make it a requirement for anything, just don't.
As far as arena pvp goes i'd say not to bother at all, it's complex to balance, requires tailored maps, a ton of work and there are a lot of games that will simply do it better as it's the only thing they have to do, most people that want to play an arena shooter will not come looking for it in an open world game anyways.
Likes:
Caveman
Firefall would have only lasted 3 or 4 months for me if it hadn't had Broken Peninsula. Even though BP was god awful in regards to balance and all sorts of things it was literally the only reason in the entire game for you to craft good gear. All of the PvM could be completed in a mixture of dog turd green and blue equipment pieces, and was repetitive as all hell.
If Ember isn't going to have any PvP at any point in its development cycle then it had better solve those problems.
If Ember isn't going to have any PvP at any point in its development cycle then it had better solve those problems.
Likes:
Earth_Soldier and Fryepod
I don't care for OWPvP, but if Ember 's core combat is actually good I would probably stick with the game longer given a duel/arena system. You can just force basic or maxed out frames. I already have PSO2 and (when I can tolerate having 10001 resources and multiple separate dicerolls for single items) Warframe for turn-my-brain-off PvE, so unless Ember is really stellar I don't know if I'll stick with it. Normally I'd suggest this is just me, but when you consider FF's history with its PvE focus and eventual death, I'd say I'm probably far from alone in this. Eventually all of the PvE will be "solved" and people will get bored (which is currently an issue for many in Warframe, and that game is set up terribly for PvP, so it's really only seen as a gimmick and can't compensate for the lack of things to work towards @ endgame)
Remember that players will have build able areas. One could always make interesting enough architecture that one or two of these could be explicitly constructed as fun duel spots. I'd work towards that
Also I'm seeing a lot of "Grummz made it clear" but I can't find anything on the matter and only remember him saying that priority for launch will be PvE. The sense that I got was that PvP was a "we'll see"
Remember that players will have build able areas. One could always make interesting enough architecture that one or two of these could be explicitly constructed as fun duel spots. I'd work towards that
Also I'm seeing a lot of "Grummz made it clear" but I can't find anything on the matter and only remember him saying that priority for launch will be PvE. The sense that I got was that PvP was a "we'll see"
Buckle up and grab some popcorn, cuz diz gonna be good!
I wanted to quote bunch of people and reply individually, and I have been putting this off forever too, but I am just going to reply with a single comment. The biggest problem I see with so many people's way of thinking here is, is that they are STUCK in the mindset of two decade old mmo design. When you think about PvP, you can't think about anything else but low level characters getting ganked by high level characters. Because that is how it is been in mmo games for over two decades, so that is how you think.
Why? Why can't you think outside the box?
Don't compare this game to WoW, this game is not WoW, its not even close to tab targeting, stat based, dice rolling 100% of mmorps on the market. Of course those games can't do PvP and PvE together, because their mechanics are so shit, its impossible. It is impossible if you have insane power differences due to vertical progression, random generated damage, dodges and blocks, and no skill tab targeting. Their devs have to come up with bunch of elaborate band aid solutions to make it work a little bit the best they can with what they got.
Otherwise you got no games to compare to here. You can't say oh hey it didn't work in this game or that game, because there are no freaking games that ever done this... FireFall was the only one that tried and it failed because it went back to the shitty mmo standard. There are no other games, just like there are no other games that do horizontal progression shooter in massive world with PvE. None. So don't judge something based on no experience, and just because you THINK it won't work because 1) you don't like PvP and 2) WoW has hard time balancing it. Seriously.
Ember shouldn't have problem of standard mmos, because it will not be a standard mmo. If anything it will be similar to Planetside or Battlefield, except in larger map with more players and PvE. This game as shooter game first. What problems do shooters have with PvP and PvE balance? They don't. Because things are skill based, the health pools and damages are set and precise, and the skill the priority. DICE can add monsters to Battlefield games, and it would work flawlessly without hindrance. LEFT4DEAD can add PvP to their game, and nothing would effected in PvE. Because shooters with horizontal progression are set up so the balance is already there, you just pick your minimums and maximums for how powerful some aspects are and that's about it.
Ember will already have that, and the effort to add PvP to the gameplay is minimal compared to anything else on the market. We had PvP balance in FireFall, which worked for the longest time, I was there, I have played it. To this day the only reason that it was separated that I know off, is that PvE players felt underwhelmed with the PvP balance. Why? Why they felt that way? Because the problem I have addressed in the first paragraph of this replay. They were stuck in 20 years of mmo mentality, that taught them that you HAVE to get insanely powerful, you have to have huge damage, and make huge effects, if you weren't AoEing hundred monsters around the thumper at once with some insane skill, you are nothing. This is cliche standard ass typical mmo vertical progression way of thinking.
Shooter player don't have problem with that. I have played shooter games for over 20 years of my life, and if they taught me anything, as long as I shoot something in the face and I can kill it, its great. I don't need huge damage, or effects or insane abilities that turn enemies into trivial experience. I want efficiency and challenge. In Battlefield, when you are level one and shoot highest level player with your beginner pistol, he dies... because that's how it works, and its not the amount of your high level gun that kills, its your ability to properly aim it toward proper target while also avoiding damage via movement, or abilities. I feel like this is what Ember probably will be aiming for as shooter with horizontal progression.
So mixing PvP and PvE, is not impossible, and its not damaging to the experiences of the PvP or PvE players, but it certainly damaging to the broken mmo mentality, which will be tested again as Ember's development will begin. I guarantee you there will be people bitching how they don't feel powerful and when will we be expecting more powerful items... It's gonna happen, PvP or not.
Anyways, this is getting pretty long and ranty, so I will just wrap this up with couplet important points:
When I say "Open world PvP", It don't mean "Anyone can kill anyone else anywhere". Seriously, please, get that shit out of your mind. When I say "Open world PvP", I mean you can engage in PvP using whole or most of the world, WHO YOU FIGHT is a different question. I can be clan vs clan, it can be flagging system, or whatever else, but the point is, depending on how it is implemented, the people who don't want anything to do with PvP will not be affected by PvP (other than actually seeing people fight each other). I don't understand why people can't get this. Its not going to freaking effect your experience with the game, other than maybe giving you more options down the road if you decide to try it. I know that if anyone is allowed to just shoot anyone in the game without restrictions, the game will be complete shit, I know that and I like PvP, nobody in their right mind would ask for something like that and expect the game to be good. This just boggles my mind that people can't expend their thought process baynd that, its like everyone got freaking PTSD from shitty mmos they have played in the past and just can't move on to thinking better about possible ways on how to improve something like this.
I just gonna tag @Grummz here so he might take a look at this whenever he gets a chance. Seriously man, don't drop the idea of PvP like its nothing, you know better, its huge part of gaming world, it is important. And if PvP might make it into the Ember someday, don't make it a shitty arena, please, just don't. Let us kill our friends and rival clanmates in the world, it will be cheaper than making the arena anyway. When you started FireFall you had huge plans for PvP, and yeah things change and didn't work out as planned, but this time around we don't need Esport quality, we don't need all the fuss and cool things, start small and see where it goes. But it is crucial to start somewhere in the beginning, it will make things much easier later down the road.
I came to FireFall because it was Shooter in open world, it had horizontal progression, and PvP. Truly unique. If Ember will not have PvP, that's fair enough, whatever game you gonna make, you do it. But without PvP, it loses so much of the uniqueness in it, its almost like no point, because in PvE, who cares how op you are? Plus its going to get boring, just like Warframe, its good, but its boring, its same old same old. PvP gets boring too, yep, but combination of both is a different story.
So yeah, here is that, I hate writing so much, maybe I should publish this as a book sometime.
edit: there are bunch of typos, but I don't have time to fix that now, sorry!
I wanted to quote bunch of people and reply individually, and I have been putting this off forever too, but I am just going to reply with a single comment. The biggest problem I see with so many people's way of thinking here is, is that they are STUCK in the mindset of two decade old mmo design. When you think about PvP, you can't think about anything else but low level characters getting ganked by high level characters. Because that is how it is been in mmo games for over two decades, so that is how you think.
Why? Why can't you think outside the box?
Don't compare this game to WoW, this game is not WoW, its not even close to tab targeting, stat based, dice rolling 100% of mmorps on the market. Of course those games can't do PvP and PvE together, because their mechanics are so shit, its impossible. It is impossible if you have insane power differences due to vertical progression, random generated damage, dodges and blocks, and no skill tab targeting. Their devs have to come up with bunch of elaborate band aid solutions to make it work a little bit the best they can with what they got.
Otherwise you got no games to compare to here. You can't say oh hey it didn't work in this game or that game, because there are no freaking games that ever done this... FireFall was the only one that tried and it failed because it went back to the shitty mmo standard. There are no other games, just like there are no other games that do horizontal progression shooter in massive world with PvE. None. So don't judge something based on no experience, and just because you THINK it won't work because 1) you don't like PvP and 2) WoW has hard time balancing it. Seriously.
Ember shouldn't have problem of standard mmos, because it will not be a standard mmo. If anything it will be similar to Planetside or Battlefield, except in larger map with more players and PvE. This game as shooter game first. What problems do shooters have with PvP and PvE balance? They don't. Because things are skill based, the health pools and damages are set and precise, and the skill the priority. DICE can add monsters to Battlefield games, and it would work flawlessly without hindrance. LEFT4DEAD can add PvP to their game, and nothing would effected in PvE. Because shooters with horizontal progression are set up so the balance is already there, you just pick your minimums and maximums for how powerful some aspects are and that's about it.
Ember will already have that, and the effort to add PvP to the gameplay is minimal compared to anything else on the market. We had PvP balance in FireFall, which worked for the longest time, I was there, I have played it. To this day the only reason that it was separated that I know off, is that PvE players felt underwhelmed with the PvP balance. Why? Why they felt that way? Because the problem I have addressed in the first paragraph of this replay. They were stuck in 20 years of mmo mentality, that taught them that you HAVE to get insanely powerful, you have to have huge damage, and make huge effects, if you weren't AoEing hundred monsters around the thumper at once with some insane skill, you are nothing. This is cliche standard ass typical mmo vertical progression way of thinking.
Shooter player don't have problem with that. I have played shooter games for over 20 years of my life, and if they taught me anything, as long as I shoot something in the face and I can kill it, its great. I don't need huge damage, or effects or insane abilities that turn enemies into trivial experience. I want efficiency and challenge. In Battlefield, when you are level one and shoot highest level player with your beginner pistol, he dies... because that's how it works, and its not the amount of your high level gun that kills, its your ability to properly aim it toward proper target while also avoiding damage via movement, or abilities. I feel like this is what Ember probably will be aiming for as shooter with horizontal progression.
So mixing PvP and PvE, is not impossible, and its not damaging to the experiences of the PvP or PvE players, but it certainly damaging to the broken mmo mentality, which will be tested again as Ember's development will begin. I guarantee you there will be people bitching how they don't feel powerful and when will we be expecting more powerful items... It's gonna happen, PvP or not.
Anyways, this is getting pretty long and ranty, so I will just wrap this up with couplet important points:
When I say "Open world PvP", It don't mean "Anyone can kill anyone else anywhere". Seriously, please, get that shit out of your mind. When I say "Open world PvP", I mean you can engage in PvP using whole or most of the world, WHO YOU FIGHT is a different question. I can be clan vs clan, it can be flagging system, or whatever else, but the point is, depending on how it is implemented, the people who don't want anything to do with PvP will not be affected by PvP (other than actually seeing people fight each other). I don't understand why people can't get this. Its not going to freaking effect your experience with the game, other than maybe giving you more options down the road if you decide to try it. I know that if anyone is allowed to just shoot anyone in the game without restrictions, the game will be complete shit, I know that and I like PvP, nobody in their right mind would ask for something like that and expect the game to be good. This just boggles my mind that people can't expend their thought process baynd that, its like everyone got freaking PTSD from shitty mmos they have played in the past and just can't move on to thinking better about possible ways on how to improve something like this.
I just gonna tag @Grummz here so he might take a look at this whenever he gets a chance. Seriously man, don't drop the idea of PvP like its nothing, you know better, its huge part of gaming world, it is important. And if PvP might make it into the Ember someday, don't make it a shitty arena, please, just don't. Let us kill our friends and rival clanmates in the world, it will be cheaper than making the arena anyway. When you started FireFall you had huge plans for PvP, and yeah things change and didn't work out as planned, but this time around we don't need Esport quality, we don't need all the fuss and cool things, start small and see where it goes. But it is crucial to start somewhere in the beginning, it will make things much easier later down the road.
I came to FireFall because it was Shooter in open world, it had horizontal progression, and PvP. Truly unique. If Ember will not have PvP, that's fair enough, whatever game you gonna make, you do it. But without PvP, it loses so much of the uniqueness in it, its almost like no point, because in PvE, who cares how op you are? Plus its going to get boring, just like Warframe, its good, but its boring, its same old same old. PvP gets boring too, yep, but combination of both is a different story.
So yeah, here is that, I hate writing so much, maybe I should publish this as a book sometime.
edit: there are bunch of typos, but I don't have time to fix that now, sorry!
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Likes:
Torgue_Joey and Bl4ckhunter
the problem with pvp-in every mmo-is that someone will find a way to cheat, share it with others, and the devs will threaten to ban cheaters, but they wont, and pvp will become a cheat-fest. And don't say that there won't be any exploits in the code-even if that were true, there will always be advantages for people who play one way over the other-people who travel in groups, people who count on noob kills to advance their gear, etc. Essentially, in pvp, nobody wins in the end.
^ Hyperbole. Usually games that don't actively punish cheaters, are dead or dying games, in which case it really doesn't matter.
Right, because nobody ever uses cheats, exploits, bugs and glitches to gain advantages over others in PvE.
For how terrible you portray cheating in the video games, it never stopped me from having a blast playing (pvp and pve) online games for over twenty years. I definitely run into cheaters on occasion, and its not too fun, but majority of players are legit players who don't cheat, and that's who you play with most of the time, so most of the time cheating is not an issue. It is hardly a reason to not include major feature like PvP experience into an online game.
Right, because nobody ever uses cheats, exploits, bugs and glitches to gain advantages over others in PvE.
For how terrible you portray cheating in the video games, it never stopped me from having a blast playing (pvp and pve) online games for over twenty years. I definitely run into cheaters on occasion, and its not too fun, but majority of players are legit players who don't cheat, and that's who you play with most of the time, so most of the time cheating is not an issue. It is hardly a reason to not include major feature like PvP experience into an online game.
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