Progressive and exponential skill system

Discussion in 'General Ember Discussion' started by MrWeed, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. Dreamin

    Dreamin New Member

    I offer a few types of progression; the first I am not super keen on though it offers more sandbox capability.


    Progression or level or upgradability limiter how ever you may call it; base this off actual player ability. Require player character to arrive at destination X to interact with system. System issues player appropriate level stock omni-frame with preset weapon systems, player advances (or not) through set achievement requirements. Once complete the frame is returned player achieves new title/rank.

    I find those systems more in P2W games but without the strict rules on weapon/frame/gear uses. The elite and/or ...fortunate always have some way to exploit it.



    I think a better system could be both based off world exploration and actual player time spent. There are destine to be more difficult areas to get you your fun on in, once a player can compete in those environments, the player receives a key promotion requirement. Does not have to be action specific, something like character cumulative non-afk action time spent/ kills+Heals+resources = key. Concept allows for battle groups as well as resource mining groups (my thought is that one won't receive/need much healing while mining, welcome to go the other direction). Whatever is done there I am sure could be interesting.

    Along with the above, and the real "leveling" should come from the kill count earned per setup. To elaborate, it has been mentioned that it is likely a player could have multiple versions of the same Omni-frame. When an item is equipped it starts a kill ticker, if the item is un-equipped token resets, events or instances requiring some certain level of knowledge can be referenced to the player's currently equipped stat. But...

    Can't we just mine and craft and explore and fight and kill for fun of doing it? If we play a while in one setup and decide we need to change it for a different play experience we can always keep playing to get the resources that are deemed necessary to create whatever it is we decided we want. That was one of the things that I liked, and I think other did too, about early FF.
     
  2. Torgue_Joey

    Torgue_Joey Emberite -Death Reaper

    OMFG. YER LVL INFINITE AND STILL CAN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT.

    Yep, getting better at aiming, shooting, dodging, fisting, stomping etc etc is progression enough. Or just get all the gear and upgrades for your actual playstyle is enough.
     
  3. MrWeed

    MrWeed New Member

    I didn't know that, huge turn off. More reasons to make PvE a long lasting experience :S

    Thanks for the input, as I said it's just a suggestion.
     
  4. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider

    There is no "challenge" to vertical progression, all that involves is finding out the most amount of XP gain for the least amount of work and repeating that activity for eternity (or until your head explodes). A lot of people like vertical progression because that is all they have ever known. At any rate the challenge of Ember (and originally FF before that) is the struggle for survival against an overwhelming force, not leveling up a traditional MMO character. Firefall had that for awhile before they introduced vertical progression (Tier 1-4 mobs anyone?) via bullet sponges and dramatically increased the difference between Q1000 gear and Q0.

    I hate to say anything negative here, but...If all you are looking for is lots of vertical progression and PvP you might be barking up the wrong tree here with Ember :( With that said, I hope that as the game design is fleshed out you can find something here to enjoy.
     
  5. Destination

    Destination New Member

    Get rid of the whole 'traditional leveling' concept.

    See that guy consistently head-shotting fast airborne enemies as quick as his sniper rifle allows while dodging the bulletstorm moving full-speed in an impossible trajectory? Now that's a 'high level' right there. Skills to win the bills. Zones, activities and even alternative frame loadouts should be unlocked by achieving higher 'scores'.

    I know I'm wishing for you guys to come up with AI capable of getting that close to accurate 'human' judgement. I think not even the most advanced software developers of this age are anywhere near, but just think about it. Even a small but successful step in this direction would be a huge advancement.
    (Just for clarification, it's not a mere DPS meter. It has to evaluate EVERYTHING you do, in context, and get as close to being exploit-free as possible).
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  6. Terricon4

    Terricon4 Well-Known Member

    You know... as you say this I'm recalling all the times I've played Overwatch and had the enemy team for like... the entire game, just run straight up through the same chokepoint at me when I was playing bastion, not even swapping to a character that could shield or reflect my shots or anything... they just charge right in there.

    Humans are, for the most part, not the brightest of creatures from my experience, not without proper training at least. We can learn to mimic and copy something, but applying creative critical thinking on our own tends to take a fair bit of effort by that person in question, and most people don't bother with that outside of a very limited number of areas they are especially interested or focused in.


    Either way, as far as AI goes, in an MMO where it's against AI you really need to be careful of things like skilled enemies that act truly smart. If they learn to hide when low on health, or bait you then great, but if they can shoot you with perfect precision or dance between all of your shots it just gets frustrating. In a PvP game it's annoying but at least you can respect the other person for it.
     
    neonserge likes this.
  7. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider

    Awwwwww, the poor AI gets no respect :(

    I can totally see this as a comic. Two AI's sitting at a bar getting hammered...

    AI1: Man this sucks, everyone I play against is so fast, I can't seem to ever hit them. They complain about how stupid I am all the time but rage anytime I manage to actually get close.

    AI2: Eh, could be worse. I've got some leet skills and am really good at headshots, but everyone just says I am cheating.

    AI1: Yeah that was me last month, but the dev's caved to player pressure and gave me a lobotomy. Hey, how many shots have I had so far? Can't see straight after that surgery. *hic*

    AI2: Wow, that's like 1001 shots in 12 miliseconds! I'd love to see those blasted humans control hundreds of characters as well as you considering how laggy you are about to be.
     
  8. Destination

    Destination New Member

    Maybe I wasn't clear. Didn't mean 'enemy combat AI', I was talking about having your gameplay 'judged' by the game and then determine/build up your 'level' based on how good you're doing. It shares the DPS-meter and K/D ratio principle, but it should be much deeper, context sensitive and complete.
    Whenever you see someone playing you know how good he's doing. That's what I mean by 'judgement'. I wish a game could do the same, accurately evaluate a player. If 'Levels/ranks' were tied to that... would be awesome.
     
  9. Terricon4

    Terricon4 Well-Known Member

    That would we one hell of a system to make, also sounds like some arbitrary ting that's of little more use than Epeen, so really only a few people are going to care, and they're going to find whatever way is most efficient to farm it (like sniping random enemies from afar, trying to always steal/get last shots, whatever). That would also penalize me for just doing random stupid but fun stuff (like flying off of cliffs, exploring, random creative builds that end up not working, you name it and it could count against my "level".

    So, ton of work to implement, don't see it serving much point (assuming I understand what you are going for this time...).
     
  10. Destination

    Destination New Member

    Indeed. If someone can do it right they'll start the next generation of gaming, IMO.
    On the contrary, that what you say is the exact definition of 'standard' leveling we've seen everywhere since pretty much forever. The 'new thing' (as I can imagine) is the exact opposite of arbitrary. It's pure merit and fair reward.
    You could still screw around, there's no need to push it forward and challenge yourself EVERYTIME if you don't feel like. You can relax and you should not 'down-level'. It will simply 'remember' your best 'scores' but no penalty for 'relaxing' the same way as there would be no penalty for poor performances (you simply halt your progress until you improve yourself, whenever you feel like/whenever you're inspired/'on fire').
    The 'high level' players shouldn't be the ones who mindlessly killed millions of dummies or completed trivial activities ad nauseum (a-la FF elite ranks). They should be the ones who know how to pilot their frames the better. Pretty much like pvp environments determine your 'quality' based on how you perform, but adapted for a pve environment (making it a lot more complex). The AI (in the sense of 'simulated computer awareness'), encounter design and progressive difficulty model implications are huge.
    May sound like an impossible revolutionary over-ambitious concept but it's gonna happen someday. You can count on it. Someone is gonna score big someday and make millions of players very happy. I think this team values skillful play, so, at least the foundation is there.
     
  11. Gatestrider_n3Kro

    Gatestrider_n3Kro New Member

    IMO, there is nothing 'wrong' with traditional vertical progression since it functions as gear requirement, a way to roughly measure player's capability, and giving direct boost in stat.

    However, it has crippling flaws that we shouldn't overlook. Grindfest can turn even the best game boring. Once you reach max level, it's either about 'paragon' level or grind for gear with the best roll. Something that rarely grants players with meaningful reward. We will experience grinding for better gears for hundred of hours with no end insight despite sacrificing many virgins to the altar of RNG god. In the end, it's a way to artificially prolong the inevitable.

    I'm rooting for mixture of vertical progression in term of specialization and multitude of horizontal customization. Completing mission, exploring the unknown, killing specific threat, even basic mining should yield reward based on how risky it is. Also, contributing effort for the community or displaying certain deeds should giving player access to more customization, both vertical and horizontal.
     
  12. EvilKitten

    EvilKitten Gatestrider

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
     
  13. Rocket

    Rocket Gatestrider - T.H.M.P.R. Max Kahina

    Player skill is an infinite progression system. And the only one worth having. I hope exponential systems stay far away.

    The best we had in Firefall by my count, was when we had two levels of gear. Right about the time the Arsenal came out IIRC. Minimal progression (if you can call it that) by numbers, but it was still noticeable. More noticeable however was the ability for anyone with a mediocum of skill to join in a random team with others and make a solid contribution. Minimum toxicity, maximum fun. We actually used to lose thumpers in those days. It was glorious.

    A desire for this once again is the reason for the blue banner you see the the left.
     
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