List of the best aspects of older games.

punkbuzter#6186

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#21
Well, you gave the names of games, then, you described how a certain system worked within them. Going by your descriptions and why they were good (and why they would be good for Em-8er), I simply pointed out, without having played (and without having to play) any of those games, that they were not exactly unique designs and were generic/standard to a lot of other MMOs, not just the ones you specifically mentioned and in the case of a few of them, I pointed out that, either FireFall already had something similar (which means, Em-8er will definitely have it and can only improve upon it) or that we already have something similar in Em-8er's lore, as well, that could be implemented in-game and it would resemble a certain system, like guilds/Houses.
You don't tell a cook that you don't like his food if you haven't tried it, same principle here, if you haven't played the games I've picked, how can you critique them?
The point of this thread was for people to add whatever functions, mechanics, features, aspects, and whatever that made games that people have played better... But what I personally wanted was for people who have played the same games as me to add their input, and possibly correct me if I'm wrong. But if you haven't played the games I mentioned, don't correct them :p
Try them first.
I'm not very good at explaining things, and even if I was, it would never give the whole picture or the full experience/feeling of how these things worked. The things I mentioned are either highly unique to their games, or being used by a very few select games, like PWI's Territorial Wars... It would fit in Em8er, it's just a matter of writing the story for it, for those who care about story (I don't, I just care about a good game for a change). I've waited for over a decade for a good game to come out... Em8er might be it, and the last thing I wish for Em8er is for it to be a wasted potential.
 
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#22
You don't tell a cook that you don't like his food if you haven't tried it, same principle here, if you haven't played the games I've picked, how can you critique them?
The point of this thread was for people to add whatever functions, mechanics, features, aspects, and whatever that made games that people have played better... But what I personally wanted was for people who have played the same games as me to add their input, and possibly correct me if I'm wrong. But if you haven't played the games I mentioned, don't correct them :p
Try them first.
I'm not very good at explaining things, and even if I was, it would never give the whole picture or the full experience/feeling of how these things worked. The things I mentioned are either highly unique to their games, or being used by a very few select games, like PWI's Territorial Wars... It would fit in Em8er, it's just a matter of writing the story for it, for those who care about story (I don't, I just care about a good game for a change). I've waited for over a decade for a good game to come out... Em8er might be it, and the last thing I wish for Em8er is for it to be a wasted potential.
The highlighted part was exactly my point.

The things you mentioned and the way you described them didn't make them sound like they are unique, or only true to a few select games. Some are standard MMO-stuff that I've seen elsewhere. Or we've already seen (and liked) them in FireFall and so we easily expect to see something similar being implement in Em-8er. So it's not a worry. I don't have to play any of those games, if what you're describing is something I've already seen.

Other things you mentioned wouldn't make sense lore-wise. Or not without some further development in said lore, that could lead to them.

In the lore of Em-8er, we already have clans/Houses, which could function like "guilds" do in many run-off-the-mill MMOs. However, I can confidently say that most of us, here, don't want a run-off-the-mill MMO with the same mechanics simply re-dressed to give the illusion they're something new/different. In every one of its aspects, Em-8er should strive to set itself apart from the old mold. That's one of the reasons it's being made, in the first place. To be not just another MMO.
 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
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#23
The highlighted part was exactly my point.

The things you mentioned and the way you described them didn't make them sound like they are unique, or only true to a few select games. Some are standard MMO-stuff that I've seen elsewhere. Or we've already seen (and liked) them in FireFall and so we easily expect to see something similar being implement in Em-8er. So it's not a worry. I don't have to play any of those games, if what you're describing is something I've already seen.

Other things you mentioned wouldn't make sense lore-wise. Or not without some further development in said lore, that could lead to them.

In the lore of Em-8er, we already have clans/Houses, which could function like "guilds" do in many run-off-the-mill MMOs. However, I can confidently say that most of us, here, don't want a run-off-the-mill MMO with the same mechanics simply re-dressed to give the illusion they're something new/different. In every one of its aspects, Em-8er should strive to set itself apart from the old mold. That's one of the reasons it's being made, in the first place. To be not just another MMO.
I highlighted these points for that reason alone, because they're unique, and because I wanted to see them again.
And I get it, people like the lore, but I have little to no interest in the lore of the rest of the game is gonna end up boring or lack content/things to do. Also, I mentioned these aspects because they'd fit into the game, not into the lore. Lore can change, and I guess so can the game, but it's easier to change the lore than the game if the game is already made, thus why I highlight them now (early) rather than late.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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Jan 6, 2021
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#24
In the lore of Em-8er, we already have clans/Houses, which could function like "guilds" do in many run-off-the-mill MMOs. However, I can confidently say that most of us, here, don't want a run-off-the-mill MMO with the same mechanics simply re-dressed to give the illusion they're something new/different. In every one of its aspects, Em-8er should strive to set itself apart from the old mold. That's one of the reasons it's being made, in the first place. To be not just another MMO.
That's great, and all I'm suggestion is that we make use of them, the lore is there, let's make content out of it.
I'm not suggesting for Crixa to re-use something old and say they invented a whole new concept, I'm asking for Crixa to re-use what made MMOs the best they could be. Even a bad game has its good aspects within, just saying.
For example, Freelancer was a legendary game that never lived up to its potential mostly because of the time it was released (social media wasn't a thing back then), but most of everyone who loves Chris Roberts and his line of games have probably played Freelancer too, and one of the best things about Freelancer was the dynamic reputation between factions/houses. It's good for replayability and roleplay...
 
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#25
That's great, and all I'm suggestion is that we make use of them, the lore is there, let's make content out of it.
I'm not suggesting for Crixa to re-use something old and say they invented a whole new concept, I'm asking for Crixa to re-use what made MMOs the best they could be. Even a bad game has its good aspects within, just saying.

For example, Freelancer was a legendary game that never lived up to its potential mostly because of the time it was released (social media wasn't a thing back then), but most of everyone who loves Chris Roberts and his line of games have probably played Freelancer too, and one of the best things about Freelancer was the dynamic reputation between factions/houses. It's good for replayability and roleplay...
Yes, let's include some of the mechanics that have worked. Of course. I always think that big name companies should put any rivalry and competition aside and just effing collaborate to create a game that combines the best of every aspect their games were good at. As gamers, we often see shortcomings in certain areas of a particular game and our first thought is "Why couldn't they just do what they did in (insert name of a game)? They had a better system for this, come on!" And it's easy for us to just expect that developers could just take ideas/mechanics from other games and mesh them together. Of course, it's not that easy. But, we also have to be mindful and have some foresight, of where some mechanics would later lead, what problems could arise, learning from previous games.
But, just to point out, again, this whole "dynamic reputation system", for example...I wouldn't say it's anything new. Perhaps not a lot of MMOs have it, but it's not exactly innovative. It COULD be implemented in Em-8er, with the different Houses/clans, sure. The lore already allows for it.

However, we also have to remember that just because something is "tried-and-true" and is/was generally popular in other MMOs, it doesn't mean it's a good system or that it should stick around. I'm not talking about a "dynamic reputation system", right now. I'm talking about all possible mechanics, in general.

Consider the WoW-like MMO formula that almost every MMO game has copied since it came out. It's crap. And yet, it prevailed, because it's popular. Because both the people playing them and both the developers making them can't think outside of the box they put their imaginations in. They're content with the same-old same-old and often cannot even see its faults, much less admit there's anything wrong with the formula.
 

DHYohko

Member
Ark Liege
Nov 6, 2018
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#27
I didn't go into detail about these last week so i will now as we have a proper discussion going.
Don't make ammo a generic consumable thing.
Instead, do what they did in Hellgate London where one type of ammo either boosts a specific damage type, add one, or change it into something else. Path of Exile also lends the same idea where ammo is not consumable but adds or changes stats or how the damage behaves.
More good things about Hellgate London is the mod slots in weapons, as RNG can give a weapon single mod slots, or 5, where you can put in various mods that either boosts or changes how the damage behaves, like Kinetic adding and/or turning it into Splash damage.
Grummz wanted to make this game a PVE version of Planetside, and PVE implies RP/RPG, so instead of having specific classes dropping ammo boxes for refill, make it more fluid and less class dependent. Nobody wants a stagnant group of players waiting for someone that can supply ammo.
I think ammo being a standard consumable resource is a must if they intend to keep the player driven logistics side they mention will be needed during invasions (they even showed us the full space truck for such activities). I also recall when playing Armored Core ammo capacity vs damage was something i needed to consider when selecting what weapons to use. I never really liked how Mass Effect had every weapon use the generic ammo and just more powerful weapons used more, felt boring.

Make monthly territorial wars. Perfect World International was a very successful game for a very long time and part of its success was the massive territorial wars over the continent (world map).
It starts with guilds bidding the highest amount of in-game currency that the guild and its members collectively saves up to fight an NPC faction, after that, the territorial map is completely player driven once a month with guilds fighting guilds, the more land a guild has the more rewards it receives to cover the expenses and efforts put into the bidding.
Stagnation is counteracted with a full map reset once a year where old guilds break down and new ones are born.
This is a concept not many games have further developed, there's only one game that I know of that used a similar thing, Aion and its "Fortress Control".
Since em8er is a pve game having player fight each other doesn't make much sense as others have pointed out but they also already compete against each other by giving resources to specific outposts to help them grow and those that give the most having there banner displayed for all to see and know that "x" made this town what it is

Give players a reason beyond the social part to join a guild.
Some games like Aion and Chaos Online had tools within the guilds that the Guild Master and ranked players could utilize to change how the members advance in the world. Aion had Legion Stores, where members of a guild could buy items and materials collected by other players, this in turn helped the guild financially, a win-win situation. This would also be great if there's plans to avoid having a Broker/Auctionhouse in the game. Additionally both Aion and Chaos Online also had a feature where ranked players could lock EXP for a player if someone wanted to grind specific monsters without leveling up, to obtain items or materials that only specific monsters dropped (dungeon or world bosses for example). Alternatively a ranked guild could offer individual players a togglable button within the guild-window to turn EXP on/off himself.
Joining a guild has always been about working together to take down the big bads as a group for me, the social aspect just came with it. Also em8er has no experience or linear player progression so the tools you mentioned are render useless. It has been mentioned as a possible expansion idea that guilds will have there own housing that requires members to donate resources to build and upgrade with giant capitol ships being the possible end game of such a system (they might even drop down from orbit and hover over a battlefield during a mass deployment)

Character customization on-the-fly.
I know it's a controversial game, but it has the absolute best way of implementing after-creation changes;
League of Maidens - allows you to make changes to the character after creation as long as you do not ascend, ascending your character makes you able to progress and level up... So technically, as long as you're Lv1 you're free to change your appearance as you see fit.
Grummz mentioned that player appearance will be changeable after creation with either no or minimal in-game cost. Since skins is how they plan to help fund further development letting players change there appearance (even race/gender/etc) at will makes sense.

Counteracting website spammers.
Many games have this plague of bots spamming chat with websites selling currency...
Having to reach a specific level to talk publicly is one thing.
Being able to block/ignore is another.
Selling the game as B2P.
But the best I've seen have only been implemented by one game that I know of. And it's Perfect World International, again.
They were selling "Megaphones" in the MTX store that allowed players to talk to everyone publicly with a small cooldown to prevent spam, it was also tradable so anyone who spent an hour or two in the game could afford them without spending real money, they were just tedious for bots to acquire as it involved both progression and trading. I believe almost all of these points is required to prevent bot spam in chat.
This i have to agree with but based on how grummz wants the whole world (every server) to be connected into one cohesive world having GM's is actually feasable to help control bots and spam. standard tools like mute and report are obvious but having GMs take a personal look at a certain accounts activity after a certain amount of negative feedback is definitely a must.

Friendly dynamic NPC factions.
Freelancer... This game had a very replayable aspect with its factions unlocking fraction-specific items when friendly enough, and being friends with one faction made you unpopular with another so you always wanted to adapt your standing depending on what you wanted. There's not much else to say about it, it's just a damn good mechanic and that's it.
this will probably happen but it needs to be made interesting and not something you just do mindlessly and stop once you get what you want.

Crafting and soulbound items.
In my world, soulbound items are the worst that could possibly happen to a player-driven market, I just hate the concept as a whole. Please don't do this... I'm bringing up Path of Exile again where the player driven market is perfect because it doesn't restrict anything from being tradeable.
I'd also like to bring back Perfect World International into the mix again as they had a very nice aspect in crafting, where the crafter of an item had its name written in the stats "Crafted By: Pandagnome", "Enchanted By: Wyntyr" it's just a nice attention to detail that I like to bring back to life, especially if there's going to be RNG in crafting - as someone who wants to dedicate time into being a crafter this would be a good thing to add. Not all of us wants to fight, some wants to create.
soulbound items make no sense here except for faction specific rewards, those should definitely not be tradable. and yes having the crafters name be written into the items stats is a must, especially if you work hard and becoming one of 4 people in the game that can craft "x" weapon with a specific stat layout.
 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
50
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#28
But, just to point out, again, this whole "dynamic reputation system", for example...I wouldn't say it's anything new. Perhaps not a lot of MMOs have it, but it's not exactly innovative. It COULD be implemented in Em-8er, with the different Houses/clans, sure. The lore already allows for it.

However, we also have to remember that just because something is "tried-and-true" and is/was generally popular in other MMOs, it doesn't mean it's a good system or that it should stick around. I'm not talking about a "dynamic reputation system", right now. I'm talking about all possible mechanics, in general.
It's very old yes, but it has never implemented in a game the way Freelancer did, and that's a feature that was lost in 2003. Being able to favor a faction for role-play rather than having factions being used for daily quests is a much better implementation imho. Back when playing Freelancer changing standings was as easy as going in to attack opposing factions, and attacking aliens made u more popular with all factions.
As it stands today, the game needs more content than just quests and material-hunting... You seem to be engaged in the lore so you tell me if there's anything in the lore that suggests there'll be more content than these 2 aspects of the game (quests and material-hunting).
 
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punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
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#29
I didn't go into detail about these last week so i will now as we have a proper discussion going.

I think ammo being a standard consumable resource is a must if they intend to keep the player driven logistics side they mention will be needed during invasions (they even showed us the full space truck for such activities). I also recall when playing Armored Core ammo capacity vs damage was something i needed to consider when selecting what weapons to use. I never really liked how Mass Effect had every weapon use the generic ammo and just more powerful weapons used more, felt boring.


Since em8er is a pve game having player fight each other doesn't make much sense as others have pointed out but they also already compete against each other by giving resources to specific outposts to help them grow and those that give the most having there banner displayed for all to see and know that "x" made this town what it is


Joining a guild has always been about working together to take down the big bads as a group for me, the social aspect just came with it. Also em8er has no experience or linear player progression so the tools you mentioned are render useless. It has been mentioned as a possible expansion idea that guilds will have there own housing that requires members to donate resources to build and upgrade with giant capitol ships being the possible end game of such a system (they might even drop down from orbit and hover over a battlefield during a mass deployment)


Grummz mentioned that player appearance will be changeable after creation with either no or minimal in-game cost. Since skins is how they plan to help fund further development letting players change there appearance (even race/gender/etc) at will makes sense.


This i have to agree with but based on how grummz wants the whole world (every server) to be connected into one cohesive world having GM's is actually feasable to help control bots and spam. standard tools like mute and report are obvious but having GMs take a personal look at a certain accounts activity after a certain amount of negative feedback is definitely a must.


this will probably happen but it needs to be made interesting and not something you just do mindlessly and stop once you get what you want.


soulbound items make no sense here except for faction specific rewards, those should definitely not be tradable. and yes having the crafters name be written into the items stats is a must, especially if you work hard and becoming one of 4 people in the game that can craft "x" weapon with a specific stat layout.

- It's good to have a big picture, but one also have to remember that most games are short lived, especially MMO's. When it comes to this industry you need to keep things simple, or things will end up like Star Citizen where the game is in infinite Beta phase.

- Satisfying bot PVE and PVP players is one of the more important things a game needs in the MMO industry to catch a larger playerbase, and what better way to give players the option for PvP if they so desire without affecting the PVE playerbase... The "Territorial Wars" in PWI is completely optional, as guilds have to bid for entry, if they want to, it's a completely separate part of the game that affects nothing other than pleasing both sides of the spectrum (PVE and PVP).
Grummz has talked about versus matches 1v1 or in small groups, which I find to be ridiculous... I main PVE, but having the option to do something else is important if you ever get tired of the same old grind.


I think those were the only two arguments I wanted to counter :p
 
#30
It's very old yes, but it has never implemented in a game the way Freelancer did, and that's a feature that was lost in 2003. Being able to favor a faction for role-play rather than having factions being used for daily quests is a much better implementation imho. Back when playing Freelancer changing standings was as easy as going in to attack opposing factions, and attacking aliens made u more popular with all factions.
As it stands today, the game needs more content than just quests and material-hunting... You seem to be engaged in the lore so you tell me if there's anything in the lore that suggests there'll be more content than these 2 aspects of the game (quests and material-hunting).
Well I can't fully know the intent of the developers. If you read the Vision Book and Novel, you and I and everyone else who also read it is free to speculate about where the story could go that would eventually, in-game, open up the possibility for a system like the one you're describing. I mean, like I said, there are Houses already, so being from a particular one, or trying to get accepted into one (through the completion of related quest) and building a reputation with them, could easily be a thing. And killing Tsi-Hu could/would/should/might as well increase your standing with all of them, in general.
 
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Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
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Jul 27, 2016
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#31
As it stands today, the game needs more content than just quests and material-hunting...
I have a feeling there will be more with thing such as job roles and current situation in the Em8er world.

I main PVE, but having the option to do something else is important if you ever get tired of the same old grind.
Pve done right can provide enough things to do and how challenging the opponents could be in which ever region.

Then what if you had a pvp event instead of just having pvp all the time sure you have your usual small pvp sparring and stuff that doesn't give much really.

However the pvp event 4 vs 4 could be setup in a way like

- 3 Rounds vs pve NPC's to complete 1st stage
- 3 Rounds vs pvp Random House team 2nd stage
- 3 Rounds vs pve Advanced NPC 3rd stage
- 3 Rounds vs pvp Random House team 4th stage

Final stage vs e.g. (Dev's) Team Grummy Bears/ (Mix Dev's & 2 random) Team Death Reapers/ Team (A.I overclocked) Ninja Tsihu

Each stage you can win something to help the house/players the further you go the better stuff you win and the final stage gives you a good prize for the chosen house to claim honory house challengers.

Each time you win you get put on the history in the codex of the Honory house challengers.
There are more than 1 winners because it is listed in how you win e.g

(W) Pineapple team vs (L) Team Grummy Bears (Fastest victory 4min)
(W) Team Chopchopchopchop vs (L) Death reapers (Slow painful victory 20mins)
(W) Thunder gals vs (L) Ninja tsihu (Victory by environmental hazard)
(W) Fisherprice vs (L) Wingemaster (KO, winner decided by rock paper scissors)
(W) JengaBois vs (L) Alphasteed (Quadruple Hit either with nade or sniper shot)
 

Abyssalrider

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jan 26, 2017
13
34
13
28
#32
I think ammo capacity needs to be finite, based on the weapon and the type of omniframe you have, but still have a lot of it. Section 8, which I doubt anyone here is familiar with, allowed you to switch classes and reload weapons on the fly by calling down a drop pod.
i loved Section 8.

- It's good to have a big picture, but one also have to remember that most games are short lived, especially MMO's. When it comes to this industry you need to keep things simple, or things will end up like Star Citizen where the game is in infinite Beta phase.

- Satisfying bot PVE and PVP players is one of the more important things a game needs in the MMO industry to catch a larger playerbase, and what better way to give players the option for PvP if they so desire without affecting the PVE playerbase... The "Territorial Wars" in PWI is completely optional, as guilds have to bid for entry, if they want to, it's a completely separate part of the game that affects nothing other than pleasing both sides of the spectrum (PVE and PVP).
Grummz has talked about versus matches 1v1 or in small groups, which I find to be ridiculous... I main PVE, but having the option to do something else is important if you ever get tired of the same old grind.


I think those were the only two arguments I wanted to counter :p
Thumping is intended to be a very core part of Em-8er, specifically because it was by bar one of the most beloved parts of Firefall. So I don't see resource gathering being a central part of the game as a bad thing.
I like complexity, I like when one playthrough is not the same as the previous 100 times...
Some people dont' like PvP and I get it, but I find PvP to add layers of content by itself, besides, the way I'm suggesting to implement it is a monthly activity, it's not meant to be a daily routine nor something anyone is forced to participate in. If Em8er is to be a successful game it needs to open its doors to as many people as possible, otherwise it'll be a niche product for a niche market.

Em8er is looking to be like Planetside, but PVE focused instead... But the reason why Planetside did good was because it's PvP. If you turned Planetside into a PVE game you'd need a ton of content to make up for it, and the best source of content is player driven.
I don't know where you get this ide that pvp has to be in an mmo, or that being niche is a bad thing. Mech is already a niche genre to begin with. Contrary to WoW's peak sub total so are MMOs, action or shooter mmos even more so. Games can thrive while still being niche, i just don't see how a pvp event like a territory war can be done in a way that won't inhibit the cooperative nature and PvE focus of the game.
 
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Aug 14, 2016
809
1,308
93
#33
Don't mind me. Just having an old man moment. But here are one thing about new games that older games did. Loading screens are not so much a thing in newer games as they are becoming more and more rare. But there was a few good things about loading screens if they was done right. Hell, in some old games the loading screen was so good that you sometimes forgot that you was waiting. For example in some older games the loading screen was a full on different game, not a mini-game, a full other game title within the game you was playing.


 
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Wraithbane

Terraformer
Jul 27, 2016
98
141
33
#36
Somehow, I think most of yall quoting me with feedback on my points, has never played the games I've been referring to....?

Planetside 2
Perfect World International
Path of Exile
Hellgate London
Aion
Chaos Online
Freelancer

If you guys haven't played these games, how can you be negative to their content or how it would be implemented?
Well... While I've never played either the original or Planetside 2 (I am a Care Bear after all... :) ) I have played Perfect World (way back in the old days) as well as Path of Exile, Hell Gate London (the original) Aion (until I realized that I'd have to PvP sooner than I had expected... :) ) as well as Free Lancer (again back in the day). They all had traits that set them apart, but many of those I'd not really be fond of seeing in Ember. I must say that I very much loved Firefall (back before The 9 tried to turn it into Gun of Warcraft™). The closer Ember is to that, while remaining true to the Vision™ Grummz has for Ember, the better I'll like it. If you guys want a blast from the past, this is the video that originally sold me on Firefall. Can you believe its been ten years?

 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
6,269
8,430
113
Island of Tofu
#37
I am a Care Bear after all... :)
Beary nice \o/

an you believe its been ten years?
It is like yesterday :eek:

This was what got me interested the memorable cinematics



&



If only they had some mod slots to make it a repair vehicle, attack vehicle etc etc
I would of enjoyed plopping some mines out off my lgv if that was an option!

need turbo mode very fast very big air time!

look look and this

 
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