I'm skeptical

Aug 3, 2016
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#1
Hey forums, I know I'm probably gonna get hounded on like a reddit echo chamber but I need to voice this. I've been in and out of firefall throughout all the big changes and the many many "revamps" that ended up either removing entire segments of the game (anyone remember back when PvP took gear into account then got turned into non-gear, then removed the mode entirely?) or completely changed the game in a different direction. (No levels with the whole world to explore, to tiered gear, to actual levels, to literal grinding levels, and not to forget the infamous 1.6 patch) Though that information is pretty irrelevant to my skepticism, it only serves as a measurement to my time invested into the game. I, like many others received an in-forums PM about the ember project and its attempt and garnering crowd funding however some red flags were raised for me in its project vision and I'd like to discuss them in an organized point by point basis.

Point 1: the supposed missed direction that the game was "supposed to become"
To quote:
We were promised a game that would be unique, shooter first, open world, sandbox MMO like never seen before. We could all see ups & downs during its development as management and investors were at each other's throats fighting over direction, but in the end that originally promised game was never delivered.

And: The community that once supported Firefall has moved to a new project called . Fusion of community effort and former Red5 & Firefall founders and developers, this game aims to bring back the original vision of Firefall to life

I'd like to call in to question what this undelivered game is supposed to be. We can know for sure the game has wildly changed direction from shifting hands and development cycles however we've never really been given any concrete points from the official game nor from communication from any of the developers what their supposed "true" vision for the game was in the first place. It seems to me the bulk of the opening letter is nothing more than false flag signaling and an appeal to nostalgia, essentially hot air in text form.

Point 2: HOLY BUZZWORDS BATMAN
Here is a collection of all the buzzwords that I personally found as red flags to me as a consumer.
[ Crowdfunded, milestones, Bloatengine4, claiming horizontal progression when we all know how that went with firefall, """""""""""""Sandbox""""""""""""""""""""""""""" (I airquoted so hard my fingers inverted themselves), dynamic quests, Go anywhere, do anything (See: play how you want, See: misleading claims), Events that unfold as you play.

Point 3: Clarifications
Crowdfunding as a red flag: While I can say that crowdfunding is a great way for independent developers to get their game off the ground, it's also a way for developers to essentially get donated for doing the job that they're already doing and essentially slacking off since they now a financial net that will sustain themselves for months on end and delaying content drops for the sheer intentions of keeping the donation drip feed running. One of the biggest offenders of delayed content via hot aired hype is Star Citizen and unfortunately alot of large crowdfunded games are now following in their footsteps which has put a sour taste in my mouth for any games that are being crowdfunded without a playable demo. Gameplay reveals won't do it for me anymore considering how accessible video editing software is in this modern day.

Milestones: See above, purposeful development gating behind a paywall with no actual promises to deliver, sometimes milestone goals don't appear in the pipeline until 1-2 years after the project was funded.

Unreal Engine: It's just a really bloaty engine that is also a bitch to work around which makes editing of internal parts of the game a royal pain in the ass for programmers. Mostly anecdote on my end from watching other people work with the engine.

Horizontal progression: Regardless of how much players claim a certain game item is a sidegrade, horizontal progression systems eventually cave into feature creep instead of powercreep with certain items offering so much utility or stats that it overshadows others of the same typage and then it becomes an arms race of stats vs utility which eventually leads into a stagnant metagame of people running the "best" of a setup and ignoring nearly half or more of a game's itemized content. (Eg. Arsenal overshadowing accord dread is nearly every way)

Sandbox: Most games that approach sandbox style of gameplay usually have alot of things to do, or a few things to do but with tons of replay-ability and depth of gameplay. Most MMOs that attempt a sandbox approach eventually turn into boring grindfests, or eventually turn into sandparks (themepark MMOs with the illusion of looking like a sandbox eg. Black Desert Online) I hope Ember doesn't go down the road of being another dime-a-dozen "mile wide in deep" sandbox. I know Firefall started out as a sandbox but people always complained about running out of things to do which eventually led to the game adopting a quest board system which eventually led the game to ditching its horizontal progression system entirely.

Dynamic quests: They're nothing more than glorified quests that are set to a rotational timer or sometimes an environmental timer with no actual lasting effect on the world since they'll simply reset everything the player does after X amount of minutes or hours. Pretty much just a misleading title for rotating quests. There's nothing truly dynamic about them just like there was nothing really dynamic about ARES quests.

Go anywhere do anything/ Play how you want: Just flat out wishful thinking. Everyone is at the mercy of a game's world and mechanics so there isn't a true meaning to this statement. What this statement really means is "Go anywhere we didn't set up kill zones of invisible walls" and "Play how you want to play as long as you obey the mechanics of the game. Wanna blow up that shack? Well too bad, we coded it to not be a destructible environment"

Events that unfold as you play: See dynamic quests. The only way this could work is if each individual player has a specific phase with internal system flags that signal if player X has completed event X/Y/Z so that their own player specific world is affected by an unfolding event they've been around to experience which sounds like a player-to-server coding nightmare unless the game is actually a sandbox that is actually permanently affected by player decisions.


Well now that I've got all that off my chest I feel better. If you've made it this far, enjoy some alligators laying on a log.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#2
I think you missed the point entirely.

Firefall didn't follow what it was supposed to be. It turned into something else and strayed from sandbox and different to generic and overdone.

What you're reading about what Ember is supposed to be is what Firefall was supposed to be.

Pretty simple.
 
#3
Well, just one point to say currently: there is no game... it isn't even in development or in planning... there are maybe 4-5 ppl just working at some basic stuff to get even story, world, gameplay etc., together... so you can't cry bout a game thats not there...

And it wen't just the way it went 'cause Mark (the dude that founded Red5 and created FF from the beginning) "got gone". The buzzwords are also just for PR still there... well, you see that the game died, so they aren't true....
 
Likes: Fryepod

Fryepod

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
66
99
33
Hudson Valley, NY
#4
I would like to make one point on the crowdfunding on the star citizen comparison;

I don't think it would be wise of Mr. Kern to attempt a scheme in which he has subliminal/directly taken shots at right in this forum. I don't think he plans on doing that.

As for everything else, too early for my input. This is a "forum" in its trutest meaning, people intrested in the same thing to discuss it together. And right now, isn't much to discuss.
 
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Luisedgm

Deepscanner
Jul 27, 2016
103
149
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#5
Crowdfunding is not a great way to fund this game... its THE ONLY option, there won't be pubishers or big investors because they will make this into Firefall 2.0, the only way to keep total freedom for the devs is to crowdfund.
The milestones are a great idea so that backers can get see part of the game done before hey fund the next.
 
#6
well... bout the crowdfunding: its no "1time forever" crowdfunding...
He makes it step by step... yes you can crowdfund, but the crowdfunding now is JUST for the forum and some concepts... there won't be too much lost if the forum crowdfunding fails, it are just 500$/€ after all...

@Luisedgm there is another way, but it won't work for something of this scale. It works only on... yeah... "small" projects...
 

Grummz

$6k package
Community Manager
Ember Dev
Jul 25, 2016
809
6,724
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#7
Yep, the idea is to crowdfund in in small, deliverable sections that demonstrate progress and build confidence over time. Its actually identical to how publishers to it. Publishers pay every month or two, and only if the work has progressed to a satisfactory degree. Except now, the gamers are acting in this role.

Also its true, we have no game yet. We didn't think we'd get this far, this fast. You guys all took us by surprise. What started as a petition to gauge interest has, in less than 30 days, resulted in the community demanding and funding a website, top tier forums with mods, and full concept art for the key resource encounter (player, frame, T.H.M.P.R., alien enemy).

So now we're working on the next phase. With the demand I'm seeing, I'm happy to put another milestone of work into the game design and more concrete explanations of how we will translate the key concepts of Firefall into tangible things in Ember. This won't happen overnight, but with our step by step funding and growing of interest and the community, I'm beginning to think we can get there.
 
#8
Frankly, Firefall started going downhill (in my opinion) a good time before you were removed from power, and for a little while after it was good, and then v1.0 happened and it really descended into a shitstorm of random crap because for some reason they listened to the most vocal of the community, the knobs don't like a challenge; The ppl who disliked the durability system and cried endlessly about it, and even though Phobos said it was "here to stay" it got changed anyway with no warning.

But in this digression is a point, I have no reason to trust you, mainly as your online reputation is somewhat undesirable, there was an awful lot of shit floating around about your handling of the company before you got kicked. I see a whole bunch of ppl here who seem to think that the game only became poor after your departure, It was not so... I feel you're riding this wave of ignorance to fund another self styled game and have no reason to think you're not just the next David Prassel in the making...

For what reason exactly should we be trusting you with our money after all the bullshit I watched over at Red5? I was very active during that entire period and I do remember your departure as being a potential positive. I remember the claim of you wasting money on shit, like a god damn heavily customised gaming bus, and hearing about you presenting ideas then shooting them down at a later point like a bipolar revolving door... I also seen the results of this in the game (and the bus itself) under your command, before The 9 even came into the picture... I feel as if a massive amount of cash was wasted under your command of Red5, so why would it not happen again? You might be a good ideas man, and maybe a good leader when you're not in complete and total control. But I always felt that when you own the power to both create and control, you have no idea what you want long term, and things can just change over night depending on what knob on the forums has adequately criticised the idea you had, or your own whims...

I can't say I know what went on in Red5, if you were the raging maniac the glassdoor reviews would have us believe, I live a life of complete scepticisms, it's why I'm into science as a life choice. So I'm inclined not to believe them, but I just can't seem to shake those memories of the days when FF seemed to indicate some substance to them...

I don't remember if I even had a point any more... Take Chris Roberts as an example of the guy you need to become; focused, open, communicative... he seems to give very little shits, when it comes to the SC community, he seems like he's got a plan and no1 can persuade him to alter it.
 
P

PCMasterReece

Guest
#9
Also its true, we have no game yet. We didn't think we'd get this far, this fast. You guys all took us by surprise. What started as a petition to gauge interest has, in less than 30 days, resulted in the community demanding and funding a website, top tier forums with mods, and full concept art for the key resource encounter (player, frame, T.H.M.P.R., alien enemy).
This is true, when he first showed me the petition just over a month ago. We both agreed we would only get around 200-300 signatures.

3000 signatures later and I'm waiting to see this Alien race we are going to be fighting
 

Grummz

$6k package
Community Manager
Ember Dev
Jul 25, 2016
809
6,724
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#11
Hi Carnage. You said it yourself 1.0 was a shitstorm and by that time, I had been gone 6 months. They had 2 years and more to fix the game, and the steamchart speaks for itself. The game got far, far worse after I left and today, they have no devs left and are on the verge of closure. The old management and The9 simply thought they knew better, and they didn't. The facts are quite plain.

But no words are going to convince you. That's why we broke it up into mini-milestones, so the community could judge for itself with minimal risk. How about the fact that in 35 days we've gone from a petition about "would you like to do this" to a 600% funded goal, a website, forums and all key concept art being delivered. Yes, we're almost done with all the art and are ready to start our next milestone. Judge us on our work, what we promise, and what we deliver. So far, we are over delivering.

As this thread will probably devolve into a flame war, it will eventually be moved to the gripes section. For now we'll keep it here for the next day or so.
 

Sik San

Deepscanner
Jul 26, 2016
112
86
28
#12
Yep, the idea is to crowdfund in in small, deliverable sections that demonstrate progress and build confidence over time. Its actually identical to how publishers to it. Publishers pay every month or two, and only if the work has progressed to a satisfactory degree. Except now, the gamers are acting in this role.

Also its true, we have no game yet. We didn't think we'd get this far, this fast. You guys all took us by surprise. What started as a petition to gauge interest has, in less than 30 days, resulted in the community demanding and funding a website, top tier forums with mods, and full concept art for the key resource encounter (player, frame, T.H.M.P.R., alien enemy).

So now we're working on the next phase. With the demand I'm seeing, I'm happy to put another milestone of work into the game design and more concrete explanations of how we will translate the key concepts of Firefall into tangible things in Ember. This won't happen overnight, but with our step by step funding and growing of interest and the community, I'm beginning to think we can get there.

Well, a lot of the OP concerns are pretty reasonable. As for me, the main "???" is about sandbox and dynamic events. Sounds too good. OP says:"Most MMOs that attempt a sandbox approach eventually turn into boring grindfests". I still remember Rift's rifts and GW2 "dynamic" events. So much PR before and such poor implementation after those games went live.

I just hope you'll be as much open as you can to the community, so we could get more and more info about specific details before actual implementation. So you will be able to see community's reactions.
 
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Vladplaya

Commander
Em-8er Contributor
Jul 27, 2016
169
259
63
USA
#13
I remember playing FireFall in the very early beta, the open world was just implemented, we had only like three dynamic events, and all you could do was basically run around and thump. And I tell you, I had a blast in that early version. Later as even simple things like founders bikes, and gliders, were added it only became better.

I would be totally skeptical as heck in Ember, except I was there when FireFall was nothing, yet it was still extremely fun. It can be done, simple game with right gameplay can be fun, it's just this time around devs have little room for wasting time or resources.
 
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DARKB1KE

Commander
Jul 27, 2016
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#14
wasting money on shit, like a god damn heavily customised gaming bus
As opposed to spending quite a lot more on banner ads that The9 wanted him to do? Man I get a laugh when someone mentions the bus. But hey, suit yourself. The facts are all there that it saved them money and would have saved even more had the company that built it not screwed up. People just love to ignore that :p
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#15
As opposed to spending quite a lot more on banner ads that The9 wanted him to do? Man I get a laugh when someone mentions the bus. But hey, suit yourself. The facts are all there that it saved them money and would have saved even more had the company that built it not screwed up. People just love to ignore that :p
This is the age of spreading misinformation through click-bait titles funneled into social media feeds and information outlets mostly unchecked as they snip and trim factual documentation to rig it so it reads how it needs to fit their personal agenda to feed their greed and the masses lap it up as if <catchybuzzword>news.com rains nothing but a perfectionists truth.
 
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NitroMidgets

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jul 27, 2016
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Dupont, WA
#16
Let's just say that Firefall and I have a history.

It is so early on that I am skeptical but open minded to the idea of the game we played at our Red5 visit will be made. I mean that game, it was good. It was not the game that so many others got to play which sucks.

They will have to develop the game in stages with transparency. Look at how EA became a victim of its own abuse. How Ubisoft is struggling with a Vivendi takeover and has lots of people bad mouthing them and so on. There are lots of people who have become jaded and very skeptical of anything that regardless of the past they will be in an uphill fight.

Is it possible to overcome? Sure and it will take some serious work to do. If done right, it might be a new blueprint for other developers.
 
Likes: DARKB1KE
Jul 28, 2016
77
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#17
Most vets felt betrayed by the release (1.0) which had very little to do with the last version of open beta). Mark had been gone for some time. The main reason I am supporting this venture is that Mark made the best MMO I have ever played (Firefall .6 and .7). It was pure genius and not another run of the mill MMO. Was it perfect...no, but it was a fantastic base to build on.
 

DARKB1KE

Commander
Jul 27, 2016
412
472
63
#18
This is the age of spreading misinformation through click-bait titles funneled into social media feeds and information outlets mostly unchecked as they snip and trim factual documentation to rig it so it reads how it needs to fit their personal agenda to feed their greed and the masses lap it up as if <catchybuzzword>news.com rains nothing but a perfectionists truth.
You're triggering me!!!! :p
 
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Grummz

$6k package
Community Manager
Ember Dev
Jul 25, 2016
809
6,724
93
#19
I see people confusing the Guildwars 2 dynamic event system with Firefall's. They were very different. GW2 had fixed locations. Firefall was fully dynamic in location. The full system was supposed to also vary the nature of the encounter depending on time and location. Different things were supposed to spawn based on location or on time of day. Also when 2 dynamic events spawned near each other, you got emergent gameplay (like Nados going after Thumpers). Also, these events were supposed to be hooked up our our AI Director which was designed to manage the pacing and flow of dynamic events to players..and never implemented.

As for ARES missions, they were not dynamic events in the original sense of what I wanted.

No open world online game has done this, and Firefall never finished it. Ember will.
 

Torgue_Joey

Kaiju Slayer
KAIJU 'SPLODER
Jul 27, 2016
1,123
2,703
113
Germany
#20
I see people confusing the Guildwars 2 dynamic event system with Firefall's. They were very different. GW2 had fixed locations. Firefall was fully dynamic in location. The full system was supposed to also vary the nature of the encounter depending on time and location. Different things were supposed to spawn based on location or on time of day. Also when 2 dynamic events spawned near each other, you got emergent gameplay (like Nados going after Thumpers). Also, these events were supposed to be hooked up our our AI Director which was designed to manage the pacing and flow of dynamic events to players..and never implemented.

As for ARES missions, they were not dynamic events in the original sense of what I wanted.

No MMO has done this, and Firefall never finished it. Ember will.
Now that's something I like to see. An "unpredictable" event that can happen anywhere at anytime.
In guild wars 2, people were just standing there waiting for the event to start (event has fixed time).