Grinding

Beemann

Active Member
Jul 29, 2016
143
53
28
#41
I
Warframe is considered a game that is very grindy, but really most of it is self inflicted by players. So long as you make use of the available game types and classes, to change up how you play instead of doing the same thing in the same place repeatedly, the grind is considerably lessened. It's even possible to think to yourself "what do I want to do that's fun?" and there will be a good chance that you can progress in many ways while doing it.
Except you have to grind for those classes (random drops are not always kind) and some of the maps are progression-locked, meaning that there are sections of the game where you're doing the same thing over and over again for an extended period of time. The added variety over time has alleviated the issue, but it *is* ultimately a game where your goal is to collect stuff and beef yourself up, and the key to that basically boils down to efficient resource collection unless you're already happy with what you have. I think the key to that is to make the availability of content a little better particularly at the beginning. It would also help (in Wargame's case) to not level lock your collection-space with plat (unless they changed that. I got tired of the grind around the time when they added the dogfighting levels, and only really came back to get my space-wings)
 
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Vladplaya

Commander
Em-8er Contributor
Jul 27, 2016
169
259
63
USA
#42
I kinda skimmed the topic, but all I want to say is that grinding in mmo games in Inevitable... You can't escape it. If you make things to easy to acquire, than they become very common and boring very fast. If you make things hard to get, people bitch about grinding.

You can't escape grinding, all developers can do is find more or less happy medium where things are not too easy, not too hard to acquire for "average" (<- kinda hard to define) player, and add enough content and activities to where players can cycle through things without feeling to much pain of the grinding. That's all there is too it. If developers do a good job and the process of doing those activities is fun and engaging, you should be earning things you need in the game by simply casually enjoying the game here and there.

Also I want to add that a lot of times players define their own guidelines for grinding. For someone its okay that it takes months to acquire top tier item, because its top tier so that makes sense. For other players if they are not getting it after playing 16 hours straight, its a grind. That makes it extremely hard to find a happy medium for everyone.

edit* spelling
 
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EvilKitten

Well-Known Member
Ark Liege
Jul 26, 2016
777
1,557
93
#44
I kinda skimmed the topic, but all I want to say is that grinding in mmo games in Inevitable... You can't escape it.
The fact that you say this is rather depressing and (not to pick on you specifically as most people seem to feel this way) I feel one of the utter failings of the MMO genre. Simply reading through the posts on this forum makes one thing abundantly clear, everyone assumes that the purpose of the game is the hunt for player gear. Honestly almost every single MMO out there revolves around this tenant, so it is not really the players fault for being in that mind set. The problem is almost every MMO out there also fails to some extent because of this.

There are several reasons for this of course. The big one of course is that it is fairly easy to throw some stats onto a new item, perhaps change some colouring a bit from a previously created items and market this new item as content that the player base needs to work towards. It is a cheap method for extending the life of the game, but you get what you pay for because in order to lure the player to work for that gear, said gear needs to be better in some way. This of course is vertical progression, the hunt for player gear. In the end this quick and easy content creation actually helps destroy the game you are working on.

The big problem with this approach is that there is always a ceiling, you can only add so much vertical progression before your game implodes, or your player base does. It also requires more and more of the "grind" you refer to because higher powered gear of course needs to require more player effort to earn and there is only so much non gear content that can be generated to tailor to earning said gear item.

The other reason for this approach is because that is what everyone knows and expects, and one of the best ways to make sure new players get hooked into your game is to provide them with what they expect. I am looking at posts here on this forum with players saying they want only horizontal progression, but at the same time still assuming there will be 1-X quality resources, or different levels of a gear item. You can see that even as players ask for horizontal instead of vertical progression they are still in the "hunt for player gear" mindset.

So you are probably asking what any of this has to do with grinding. The answer is that player gear hunting requires it, and since every MMO out there takes this approach it means that as you stated, grinding in MMO games is inevitable. In order to escape from this trap an MMO needs to allow for every possible activity that the player might choose to participate in to provide a similar benefit for the player. You simply cannot do this if you make gear the focus.

TL:DR: You are absolutely correct, and to get away from this we need to get away from a player-centric MMO mindset and focus on making player activities fit into a much larger picture.
 
Jul 26, 2016
17
15
3
#45
Yeah, grinding - in the form of waiting for RNG to grace you with some good luck - is one of the worst parts of MMO game design. I'd even go so far as to say it borders on psychological abuse of players, because the Skinner Box system exploits a psychological weakness in order to encourage players to keep doing it.

And then you have people with psychological differences, like OCD and AD(H)D, for whom the system is even worse. In the first case, because they have much more difficulty not getting sucked into doing a repetitive action, and in the second because their brains have abnormal reward systems, that encourage impulsiveness and short term gratification, rather than long term planning for delayed gratification.

What you need to realise is that in any game, you are performing an activity, for a reason, or in other words, your actions are going to be rewarded, otherwise you wouldn't be doing them.

Skinner Boxes just make you perform for much less of a reason (the chance of getting lucky, and the brief dopamine rush you get from finally getting what you wanted).

I've complained numerous times about games using pure RNG when giving rewards, precisely because of the above problems, and because of how they are essentially exploiting players for the sake of monetisation.

There are ways to seriously mitigate the streaks of bad luck that regularly happen to a good proportion of players, like unlucky streak prevention, which increases drop chances every time you fail to get lucky, so that after a few fails you are guaranteed. And then there's token rewards, that you collect in direct proportion to the amount of work you do, to buy what you want.

Really though, I think there will always need to be some kind of RNG present, because humans are so hard-wired towards taking risks for the chances of rewards, that without that games would be boring.

You can even look at from a cultural perspective, we are a race of wage slaves, so have been conditioned to accept working for so many hours for such-and-such a reward, as a fact of life. And then if you compare the cultural differences of work between the east and the west, then you have the reasons why Asian-grinders are accepted over there, and hated over here.

The game, and the amount of work that has to be done to get a reward, has to be tuned to its audience.
 

OgreMkV

New Member
Jul 27, 2016
13
6
3
Central Texas
#47
EvilKitten, I would prefer that.

You have to get better gear to fight bigger monsters to get better rewards to get better gear.

To quote a movie... We have enough dragon fighting vikings, but what about bread making vikings?

I like shooting things, but I'd like to play a game with an economy that works and maybe be a cargo pilot or a drop ship pilot. I think that would be fun.
 
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