Flaw in the plan

[zdoofop]

The world tier is the current maximum tier of technology unlocked in the game overall. Em-8ER will be regularly updated with new tiers and new blueprints that will increase the maximum world tier. World tiers must be achieved and maintained by players combining their efforts to achieve world goals. World goals are achievement states for the overall world and may include number of zones under player control, terraforming state of those zones, bases founded, and other common objectives.

World tier is not static, but can rise and fall as Tsi-Hu and their Kaiju fight to destroy bases and take back zones from players. If a world tier drops to a lower tier, players will not be able to craft or repair new gear or equipment above that tier. Players can increase the world tier up to the current maximum, by taking back territory invaded by the Tsi-Hu or rebuilding bases which had been destroyed by Kaiju.

good pln. There is a flaw: incentive to craft at higher world tier.

For instance, suppose my starter frame is a tier 1 daschund. I then craft a T4 Greyhound. Given that base are CONSTANTLY under attack, it makes sense for me to always use the daschund since the world tier could drop at any moment and I would lose the ability to repair my greyhound. Andif that is the case, there is no point in CRAFTING the greyhound, and if THAT is the case, there is no motivation to increase the world tier.

I do not have a solution because it's 2 am and I haven't slepy, but I'm sure someone will think of something.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

YOU DEFINITELY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT A TIER 4 BATTLE WITH A TIER 1 FRAME.

IT'S LIKE RUNNING OUT OF THE SHOWER STRAIGHT INTO BATTLE. NAKED.

THE MORE AREA WE TERRAFORM THE MORE AND HARDER BATTLE THERE MIGHT BE.
SURVIVABILITY AND ABILITY IS KEY TO GLORY.

NOW PIMP THAT FRAME OR YOU'LL NEVER GET THAT BADASS TELEPORTER MODULE IN TIER 5.

 

[Degiance]

So your not allowed to build a Beowulf omniframe and be like...

 

[Terib.Shadow]

Zdoofop.... That there is a reason why we'll lose some battles, because of people that don't use the appropriate gear for the appropriate situations. Of course the world tier is going to go down if people use extremely underpowered gear.

Now make that damn tier 4 gatling gun and shoot at that tier 4 kaiju so we can get to the damn tier 5!

 

[Mahdi]

YOU DEFINITELY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT A TIER 4 BATTLE WITH A TIER 1 FRAME.

IT'S LIKE RUNNING OUT OF THE SHOWER STRAIGHT INTO BATTLE. NAKED.

Why not? Worked for Kahlan in Sword of Truth series.

Jokes aside. Really!?! Dude, I understand not getting caught up in ultimate gear, I'm one who only did LFR in WoW to see the raid and didn't care any for gear or "challenge". But this is a custom crafting game base on what we can add to the game as the players. Dont you want to show off your builds? Also, it isn't like that world wipe will happen each day. Probably once a month, or unless we as a community get real good and fast at terraforming the available zones in a few days.

Plus, I am diggin' the idea of ghost towns around the zones depending on the actual destruction of the bases. Say in a year after launch and the team has added 20 more zones so the vets have expanded out a ways. Then you have the newbies come out exploring and find one massive top tier clan base in ruins and they sit back and go "oh damn! What happened here? This place was amazing" later they talk about it in the bar and collectively the vets say in unison "Torgue sneezed"

 

[Omnires]

Personally I'm not the type of person who follows metas in games. In fact, in a number of games I actively avoid him because I don't find them to be any fun and I hate being forced into cookie cutter builds just to be viable in a game. This is why one of the ways I judge a game is by how well I can do with off meta builds or is it viable for me to clear high tier things using low tier gear. There is a difference between a game of skill and game of gear.

In a gear based game how viable you can be in any given thing is all based on what gear you have. And can be problem in games they relay heavy on RNG systems to reward players, because it means that no matter how skilled and knowledgeable you may be at the game if you are a person with bad luck you can never play at the highest levels because the things you need never drop for you. I know this personally because I have bad luck with RNG systems in games so I void them, luck should never be a factor in how powerful a player is.

In a skilled based game how viable you are as a player relays on your knowledge of the game and skills as player with your gear only making things easier or harder to do, but never impossible to do. In a skilled based it should be possible for you fight and kill end-game bosses only using newbie gear if you wanted you. Granted it might take you far longer to do so then when you use the right tier gear, but the point of the matter is that it can be down. Even if you are a person who has back luck with RNG and never get the best gear in the game you are still a viable player and your skills can make up for the lack of power. This also means that playing as a non-meta build is also viable in those games because your skills as player can cover for any weaknesses in the build. Hell, I'm one of those people who can have fun in a game just soloing an end-game boss only using newbie gear, even if the fight takes me a few hours to do. Hell, in one game I played once I soloed a world class boss (a boss that is designed to taken on by large groups in the zone. Often needing at least 20+ people to kill in any reasonable about of time.) in newbie gear and the battle toke me 4 hours kill him. It was really nice of the other people in zone who was watching me to stay out of it, even if most of them was betting that I would fail. I made a few people really rich that day by doing something many people thought was impossible.

Anyway... TLR
If this game is a skill based game than people would still be viable to clear tier 4 things only using tier 1 gear as long as they know what they are doing and have the skills to back it up. Because I will be one of those guys who'll try to test my skills by fighting tier 4 monsters using tier 1 gear just for the extra challenge.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

Personally I'm not the type of person who follows metas in games. In fact, in a number of games I actively avoid him because I don't find them to be any fun and I hate being forced into cookie cutter builds just to be viable in a game. This is why one of the ways I judge a game is by how well I can do with off meta builds or is it viable for me to clear high tier things using low tier gear. There is a difference between a game of skill and game of gear.

In a gear based game how viable you can be in any given thing is all based on what gear you have. And can be problem in games they relay heavy on RNG systems to reward players, because it means that no matter how skilled and knowledgeable you may be at the game if you are a person with bad luck you can never play at the highest levels because the things you need never drop for you. I know this personally because I have bad luck with RNG systems in games so I void them, luck should never be a factor in how powerful a player is.

In a skilled based game how viable you are as a player relays on your knowledge of the game and skills as player with your gear only making things easier or harder to do, but never impossible to do. In a skilled based it should be possible for you fight and kill end-game bosses only using newbie gear if you wanted you. Granted it might take you far longer to do so then when you use the right tier gear, but the point of the matter is that it can be down. Even if you are a person who has back luck with RNG and never get the best gear in the game you are still a viable player and your skills can make up for the lack of power. This also means that playing as a non-meta build is also viable in those games because your skills as player can cover for any weaknesses in the build. Hell, I'm one of those people who can have fun in a game just soloing an end-game boss only using newbie gear, even if the fight takes me a few hours to do. Hell, in one game I played once I soloed a world class boss (a boss that is designed to taken on by large groups in the zone. Often needing at least 20+ people to kill in any reasonable about of time.) in newbie gear and the battle toke me 4 hours kill him. It was really nice of the other people in zone who was watching me to stay out of it, even if most of them was betting that I would fail. I made a few people really rich that day by doing something many people thought was impossible.

Anyway... TLR
If this game is a skill based game than people would still be viable to clear tier 4 things only using tier 1 gear as long as they know what they are doing and have the skills to back it up. Because I will be one of those guys who'll try to test my skills by fighting tier 4 monsters using tier 1 gear just for the extra challenge.

I'M STILL BETTING MY RESOURCES ON TUX GETTING SOLO ROTFL STOMPED BY A CAT 3.

 

[Maven]

@zdoofop That's quite a regressive mentality. It's almost the same thought process as most players had during the time of weapon degradation and permanent breakage in Firefall. Only, in this case, you run no such risk of perma-loss. Efficiency counts when it comes to maintaining world tiers. Using non-ideal gear in a crunch battle for fear of losing the ability to repair high tier gear is quite simply a self fulfilling prophecy.


@Omnires It's fair enough trying to fight a T4 with T1 gear for the challenge and taking 4 hours to do so. Though, personally I am not a fan of purposefully gimping myself just for the challenge. There's better things I can be doing with my time than fight a single mob for 4 hours just to prove it can be done. Especially when the rewards would be the exact same as if you had killed it in 1 hour.

A further issue that presents itself is the associated failure conditions. If I'm fighting a boss that's actively attacking my THMPR or a base, I would want it downed asap. And I would expect the others who have an investment in said base or THMPR to feel the same. If I / a team in non-ideal gear is going to be fighting a boss for 4 hours (for shits and giggles) and it takes down 4 bases in the process, that's a massive loss and possibly several weeks of work down the drain. In such conditions you should always be prioritizing efficiency.

Challenge should lie in the mechanics of the boss. Artificially inflating challenge conditions by gimping yourself is all well and good when the efforts of others are not at risk. Otherwise it becomes a nuisance to others who have time and effort invested, more so in the case of Em-8ER since a lot of the boss battles will revolve around units that have the efforts of a large group of players invested.

 

[Omnires]

@Omnires It's fair enough trying to fight a T4 with T1 gear for the challenge and taking 4 hours to do so. Though, personally I am not a fan of purposefully gimping myself just for the challenge. There's better things I can be doing with my time than fight a single mob for 4 hours just to prove it can be done. Especially when the rewards would be the exact same as if you had killed it in 1 hour.

A further issue that presents itself is the associated failure conditions. If I'm fighting a boss that's actively attacking my THMPR or a base, I would want it downed asap. And I would expect the others who have an investment in said base or THMPR to feel the same. If I / a team in non-ideal gear is going to be fighting a boss for 4 hours (for shits and giggles) and it takes down 4 bases in the process, that's a massive loss and possibly several weeks of work down the drain. In such conditions you should always be prioritizing efficiency.

Challenge should lie in the mechanics of the boss. Artificially inflating challenge conditions by gimping yourself is all well and good when the efforts of others are not at risk. Otherwise it becomes a nuisance to others who have time and effort invested, more so in the case of Em-8ER since a lot of the boss battles will revolve around units that have the efforts of a large group of players invested.

I can understand what you are saying but again sometime doing things like that is out of the control of some of us. If you are a person with bad luck with RNG systems, unless those systems have a pity / mercy rule built into them (like if you do so many tries and fail the next time you do it you'll get it 100%) odds are you will always be under powered and short on key resources. In a lot of games devs will just add in RNG systems into things without thinking what will happen to the people with below average luck. For example if on average a normal person gets a that rare drop between 10 to 15 tries of something, but I do over 50 times and never got it. And there is no mercy system in the game to force it to drop for people with bad luck. I may never get that thing so I'm forced to play without it even if it makes me really under powered never to everyone else. After some point you just stop trying to get rare things and top tier gear because what is the point, you bad luck will not let you get it. So running around with lower tier gear is less of a choice and more of a product of the game system itself. Because with some people the reason they are always have lower tier gear is not because they want to use nor that they don't know how to get better things, but because the game itself will not let them get it.

Now in games that don't relay on RNG for rewarding players or the game has a reasonable mercy rule for guaranteed top tier things after so many tries, I'll use the best gear possible for my builds and playing style. And only do the newbie gear run thing as test of skill and/or for goofy fun with nothing is at stake.

 

[Degiance]

I might end up corrected but i do believe there is no RNG or very little of it if there is. (I recall one post where Grummz joked about it)
As everything is crafted by the players or that's the word i keep seeing and the new tiers just unlock new plausibilities while tier 1 is like stock model stuff. (This is the part where it was joked around if there should be RNG to get better stats if you throw money down the slot and it was taken seriously)

I can be completly wrong writting this 2 in the morning and like the "How I met your mother" tv-show had that rule how nothing good happens after 2 in the morning i'm fully ready to accept that i might be wrong.^^

 

[Wyntyr]

I'm a believer in playing a game as you want too. Wanna take time to kill that nasty while simultaneously staying alive in that low geared/tiered OF? Have at it! Wanna one shot sheet and stay out in the open the whole time? Have at it! In essence if the game is popular and populated enough it won't matter. The Veterans will want the newbs to get in the fight (dps is gud) just as much as the newbs will be glad there are veterans around for help and advice (gotcha bud...now go shoot that shield spike on the beast's back).

 

[Mahdi]

Remember recipes unlocked stay that way, that isn't RNG for crafting. There will be a way to scan for minerals and that is what you get. Then higher yields vs risk by length of the mining is also not RNG. The only chance of RNG I see at this phase of development is the Tsi-hu tech and kaiju parts that drop. Things will he tweaked many times but any reasonable individual should know this and not he surprised. Give it time and enjoy what we get for anything playable right now!

 

[Omnires]

There is also the question of resources. Like if a scan spot that have that has 40% iron, 50% nickle, and 10% uranium when I go mine up that spot with my THUMPER well that be what I get or will it be random and I give like 80% nickle and 20% iron with no uranium? I would hate to be mining for hours on end looking for something that scans say should be in the area and never getting it. Because people with below average luck with RNG systems tend to always get screwed over by the game itself.

I'm not saying that all RNG systems are bad, just the ones that effect the players directly like stats, rewards, and drop rates. Having RNG effect the play area or enemy is a good thing. Like if a NPC faction sends death squads after you, the game randomly picks a number for the size of the group coming after you and randomly picks a different combination of enemy types to be in the group each time. Again as person who tends to have bad luck with RNG systems in over 30 years of playing video games I've become very aware of how many games arbitrarily picks who will win and who will lose just based on nothing more of this person just has more luck than the other, skill and knowledge is not a factor.

Anyway with all this talk about RNG here is a fun little video about how there is no such thing as true RNG when it come to computers.